122 replies to this topic

[Johnny Z]

The Cspl Linebacker is a deadly mech.

[mogs01gt]

Appogee, on 13 December 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

I have both, too. And I too believe Clan tech is superior.
All my best-performing Mechs - in all weight classes - are Clan Mechs.

Exactly. All I have to do is hop in my tbr, smash some buttons and aim...easy dmg.

[Andi Nagasia]

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

I state that C-SRM is better then IS-SRM because they weigh half as much. You can drop a c-srm6 and the ammo for the tonnage to get just the SRM6 from IS. Yeah. That's just better even with more spread and .15 less damage per missile. For a splat storm crow at full srm6's that's 4.5 dmg that would have been spread out on either tech.

not really, IS-SRM(not including Extra Damage) has about the same Spread as a C-SRM+A,
so a C-SRM2+A has +0.5Ton & +1Crit vs IS-SRM2(IS wins unless you want less Spread)
so a C-SRM4+A has +1Crit vs IS-SRM4(Again IS wins unless you want less Spread)
so a C-SRM6+A has -0.5Ton & +1Crit vs IS-SRM6(Give and take Tonnage for Crit?)

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Yeah they both have advantages and disadvantages. I put it in my short analysis. Clan is just better tech though.

Tech base is not close. Tech base with quirks are close, and only in some situations. Clan still has the advantage unless you are not playing tto the clans strength.

yes and no, some Clan mechs have the Advantage but is the Advantage really All Clan Tech?
or are the Advantages just C-XL, and Shape? KDK-3 wouldnt be the monster it is without C-XL, & High Ballistics,

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Yes even the ERML is better then the ML even when you take into account current DHS rules [which change today], burn times and extra heat, and the fact that C-ERML is more akin to a IS-LL. Compare the Wolf hound with 5 ML and highest heat dissipation to an adder with 5 ERML and highest heat dissipation. Same tonnage. Same weight used in weapons. One is better. Even with quirks. Just better.

well the Problem is its hard to Balance ER lasers with non ER lasers,
once IS get their own ERML & ERSL then we will see another Balance pass to normalize them,
much like now most people feel Large Class Lasers seem to be balanced(still hate C-ERLL Burn though)

[Stugg]

Easy way to test this.

We can 1v1 about 50 matches. I will splat crow and you can use a IS equivalent.
We can even reserve the mechs and check the change in scores.

That should show us some significant numbers on a spreadsheet to show if clan or IS tech is better.

As long as you can be trusted to fight to the b3st of you abilities in both test sets.

[Lily from animove]

Johnny Z, on 13 December 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

The Cspl Linebacker is a deadly mech.

it's like a fat stormcrow.

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Easy way to test this.

We can 1v1 about 50 matches. I will splat crow and you can use a IS equivalent.
We can even reserve the mechs and check the change in scores.

That should show us some significant numbers on a spreadsheet to show if clan or IS tech is better.

As long as you can be trusted to fight to the b3st of you abilities in both test sets.

dunno the crow would be a cheated testmech, the crow is a mech with superior hitbixes sololy by it's weird shaped components. it will make it hard to land any non pinpoint in a single section. if the is had such a chassis then it wouldn't differ much.

Edited by Lily from animove, 13 December 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Easy way to test this.
We can 1v1 about 50 matches. I will splat crow and you can use a IS equivalent.
We can even reserve the mechs and check the change in scores.
That should show us some significant numbers on a spreadsheet to show if clan or IS tech is better.
As long as you can be trusted to fight to the b3st of you abilities in both test sets.

IS equivalent? There isnt one due to the speed of the crow. The Griffin could be a choice but the crow would be getting armor stripped away from PPC rounds to the face until it got into range.

Edited by mogs01gt, 13 December 2016 - 11:43 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Brawling is a completely different subject.

First off an IS brawler can kill a Clan 'mech that's setup for ranged battler, sure. The problem is closing the distance, AND, how much is required to kill that Clan 'mech.

>>IF<< an IS 'mech has an XL, the Clans can quickly defeat it by taking out a torso. More often than not in quick play, that's what I'm seeing done, XL-checking of IS 'mechs. Of course, when I played FP, if you were IS and you brought a heavy or an assault (and sometimes even mediums) with an XL, USUALLY, people got really pissed off about it, for good reason.

The IS attempting to take out a Clan 'mech relatively quickly has two options:

Head
Legs

Neither of which are all that easy or quick, unless you're really good, or the enemy pilot is really bad, or you just get really lucky.

Otherwise it's a process of burning through CT or both side torsos before the Clan 'mech goes down.

Again, when fighting a Clan setup for ranged, it can be a tough fight, but it's possible, when fighting a Clan setup for brawling... It's seriously more difficult to the point of impossibility. 'Mechs like the KDK and DWF can be setup with >>HUGE<< approaching 100 point alphas with double-tap CUACs, or the extreme large amount of SRM6/SSRM6's that can be stacked on other chassis, and at that point with alphas of that size, it doesn't really matter if the damage is spread across 2 or 3 components, it typically only takes 2, at most 3, alphas before the IS 'mech is very, very dead.

Most IS brawlers have only taken out a single side torso and MAYBE opened up a leg and/or CT by that time.

Anyway, again, the difference is the preponderance of the Clans' technology stack that puts the IS at a significant disadvantage.

Free CASE in every slot matters.
Survivable ST loss XL's matter.
Lighter weapons matter.
Smaller weapons matter.
Longer reaching weapons matter.
Harder hitting weapons matter.
Smaller Ferro Fibrous slot requirements matter.
Smaller Endo Steel slot requirements matter.
Smaller HS's matter.
More efficient HS's matter.
Switchable Omni pods matter.
Generally available TC's matter.

The problem isn't any singular system that's "OP" it's the affect of the ability to combine almost ALL of the benefits into a single package that builds the "OP" factor of Clan tech.

The solution is not nerfs: DO NOT NERF CLANS.

The solution is to bring both sides to par: The IS tech needs improvement.

[Lupis Volk]

I was always under the impression that the "balance" was nearly spot on at times, just that "good" Clan mechs shine better than and there are more of then unlike the "good" IS mechs and that's why there's a image if Clans being better in MWO.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 13 December 2016 - 11:47 AM.

[Jman5]

Ragnar Baron Leiningen, on 13 December 2016 - 07:15 AM, said:

As someone who has spent a great deal of time in clan mechs and more recently leveling IS mechs. I can without any reservation whatsoever say that the warhammer and grasshopper are the superior heavy mechs in the game comparatively so. The only clan heavy that can match those mechs is the Ebon jaguar with full laser vomit. Any unit worth its salt has long figured out how to quickly core out the nerfed kodiaks. The fact that we're talking about nerfing clan xl engines is absolutely ridiculous. Clan xl engines never were or are the problem. Whatever range advantages clans have are completely negated by competent is face rushes. Yes if you stand their and try to trade with decently coordinated clan units you will come out on the bad end of that. But the reality is that most wins and losses are heavily affected by coordination and focus fire. Things bad units don't do. To me the success that jade falcon has had is in part do to an influx of coordinated teams and effort to bring other teams within jadefalcon up to a competent level. So my hats off to jade falcon for coordinating your faction into competent teams. The game to me slightly favors IS meta play and not the reverse. And all of that is inconsequential when compared to pilot skill and team coordination.

The Heavy category has the greatest parity between Clan and IS performance. That said, I can't believe you didn't even mention the Night Gyr. In the leaderboard events we had in the summer it DEMOLISHED the Warhammer and Grasshopper's average scores. While the Warhammer had a very respectable score just barely edging out the Ebon Jaguar and Timberwolf, the grasshopper had a middling one (11th out of 20).

[Dimento Graven]

Stugg, on 13 December 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Easy way to test this.

We can 1v1 about 50 matches. I will splat crow and you can use a IS equivalent.
We can even reserve the mechs and check the change in scores.

That should show us some significant numbers on a spreadsheet to show if clan or IS tech is better.

As long as you can be trusted to fight to the b3st of you abilities in both test sets.

You'd need another 50 where you swapped into each other's 'mechs to really provide depth to this test.

[mogs01gt]

Jman5, on 13 December 2016 - 11:47 AM, said:

The Heavy category has the greatest parity between Clan and IS performance. That said, I can't believe you didn't even mention the Night Gyr. In the leaderboard events we had in the summer it DEMOLISHED the Warhammer and Grasshopper's average scores. While the Warhammer had a very respectable score just barely edging out the Ebon Jaguar and Timberwolf, the grasshopper had a middling one (11th out of 20).

lol How can anyone forget about the Gyr? Its ******* insane for a heavy!

[Stugg]

Stormcrow wouldn't be a cheat mech. You can't cheat in mwo by just using a stormcrow. It is just a superior srm mech.
I was planning on using the meta build for it with 1 ERML and 5 srm6's.

So I guess you could use any SRM mech from IS. Just has to be SRM boated with the works. Griphon would be a good mech. Load it up with SRM6+A and at least 1/2 ton per X2 tubes and then sure, put an erppc in there too if you want.

Heck if you think it isn't fair to run a splat crow this conversation may just be over. Your know... cause it is cheating to play one, cause it's clan tech.

And if mediums aren't your thin we could do another weight class.

[Herodes]

BCAW, on 12 December 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

snip

Dimento Graven, on 13 December 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

snip

Thank you, gentlemen, for those fine posts.

[L3mming2]

Pariah Devalis, on 13 December 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

I'd still mount them. And often, in most Clan mechs, with Clan weight ballistics, you still can't fit more than one anyways. Only a handful can actually fit two larger ballistics.

to bad that those hand full represent a way out of proportion part of the clan mechs u actualy see on the battlefield ..

clans are cruching the IS at the moment with a win rate of 80% for the last 40 matches in FW...
if this stays the same FW will die again in no time..

[L3mming2]

Lily from animove, on 13 December 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

it's like a fat stormcrow.



dunno the crow would be a cheated testmech, the crow is a mech with superior hitbixes sololy by it's weird shaped components. it will make it hard to land any non pinpoint in a single section. if the is had such a chassis then it wouldn't differ much.

but they dont, nore do they own a chassy like the KDK 3.., o no they do, but it has to take a STD engine to take 4 UAC5's (let alone to take 2 5's and 2 10's... )

[BluefireMW]

Johnny Z, on 13 December 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

The Cspl Linebacker is a deadly mech.

You don't play the same game as i do. It's just nice, but nothing compared to a quirked thunderbolt with 3 quirked Large Pulse.

[Johnny Z]

BluefireMW, on 13 December 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

You don't play the same game as i do. It's just nice, but nothing compared to a quirked thunderbolt with 3 quirked Large Pulse.

One side torso and the mech you consider the Line backers equal and that mech is useless. Also the Linebacker is way faster, like ALOT faster. So this parity you mention is ruined by the Linebacker being TWICE as durable and WAY faster.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 December 2016 - 03:10 PM.

[BluefireMW]

Johnny Z, on 13 December 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

One side torso and the mech you consider the Line backers equal and that mech is useless. Also the Linebacker is way faster, like ALOT faster. So this parity you mention is ruined by the Linebacker being TWICE as durable and WAY faster.

i need your drugs, i guess, to argument the same s*** as you do...
A thunderbolt takes much more damage as a linebacker and you need not to put all lasers in one torso...
To tell a linebacker is much more durable than a thunderbolt is just a lie. nothing else

Edited by BluefireMW, 13 December 2016 - 03:28 PM.

[Novakaine]

Clan mechs are simply OP.
Everyone of them?
No.
However ton for ton they have the advantages overall.
ED would have leveled the playing field somewhat.
But PGI wimped out on it.
Of course some vat boy is gonna jump in and claim otherwise.
Telling us how bad ED was.
Test server aside it never got off the ground.
So the advantage goes to the clans hands down.
And don't get me wrong they should have superior tech.
But dammit this ongoing problem needs to be addressed in the only way possible.
Two Clan stars, or Binary vs. One IS Battlemech Company.

In my most humble opinion.

Edited by Novakaine, 13 December 2016 - 03:29 PM.

[Johnny Z]

BluefireMW, on 13 December 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

i need your drugs, i guess, to argument the same s*** as you do...
A thunderbolt takes much more damage as a linebacker and you need not to put all lasers in one torso...
To tell a linebacker is much more durable than a thunderbolt is just a lie. nothing else

So nice to see another easy mode player holding onto easy mode like a big baby. One side torso and the Thunderbolt is over period. Need two side torso or CT for the Linebacker and the linebacker is way faster AND has a higher alpha.

Clan easy mode players kind of make me ill.

By the way Inner Sphere pilots are being slaughtered in game shouldn't you be happy with that and not trolling balance discussions on top? Inner Sphere pilots been slaughtered for 3 years nearly now? Not happy yet? Knowing all this you say I lie?

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 December 2016 - 04:08 PM.