391 replies to this topic

[Jep Jorgensson]

My compliments to you Dane, your presentation and was excellent as usual (such as the history of PGI's broken promises to us). While I have no intention of arguing with your facts since I am not an idiot, I will however, point out that you unfortunately neglected to account for two additional factors.

1. Having looked over the planets taken by the Clans and the tags on them, many of their tags are actually those of merc units. Now, I have been saying that the mercs have basically controlled FW since at least when I rejoined the game over a year ago in Phase 2 and that has unfortunately not changed. Furthermore, from what I saw, ALL of the big merc units are over here right now.

2. As to why all the big mercs are in the Clans right now, the answer is simple: the Marauder IIC. Phase 4.1 coincided with the release of this very popular Clan mech and thus why the big merc units are currently fighting for the Clans. If it had been an IS mech that was just released, then this would not be he case. Not to worry though. When things start to get constricting for us Clan loyalists, the mercs will leave for IS space to take advantage of their new tonnage "balance" while we are left stuck with the reduced weight.

Conclusion: Your results were somewhat skewed since you failed to account for the preceding factors. Remember, FW is controlled by the mercs who turned it into a seesaw. Once one side gets nerfed, they bail and join the other side. They are locusts that leave only destruction and despair in their wake.

Solution: Repeal and replace FW. Aside from being perfectly fine with dropping a Binary (10 mechs) against an IS company (12 mechs) in Invasion (providing that our tech was restored), I outlined some of what I would like to see here. I would like to go into further detail, but my dinner is getting cold so I will leave it at that.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Edited by Jep Jorgensson, 15 December 2016 - 06:47 PM.

[Alteran]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

But balance tech how? Remember, in here, ask a question to three people and you will get 9 answers to the same question. I for one don't think that IS and Clan tech should be like for like the same across the board. That would be a lazy way to balance things, and kill the flavor of both factions. Different but equal should be possible.

I can't agree with this. If there is a difference in the weapon/system/tech then they just aren't balanced. They can never be balanced. Any perception of imbalance and people will complain. I'm listening to it now on TS. We're probably going IS to take advantage of the tonnage imbalance to **** Clan units. Yes, we played IS here and there during Phase 3 and it was great.

This is the fundamental problem with the system that Battletech - MWO has, the only way the techs were supposed to be balanced were with shear number of Mechs. Nerf this, quirk that doesn't balance a thing. It's all the same thing for the last two years and we are no where even near 'balanced' if you read these boards.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Funnily enough, we literally just went CSJ in concert with FP4.1 --- because we bought a rash of M2C's (or guys claimed them as WC swag).

The struggle with these discussions and the pretty consistent snide comments/thinly veiled insults that emerge because some folks on the forums can't hold a civil discussion is that many of us are looking at data points and declaring our assessments of those as facts but when PGI --- the guys with literally, all of the actual data, not just the perceived data, or the paltry bits we save on our wee spreadsheets (yes I'm a MWO moneyballer) say something is trending a certain way -- they don't know what they're talking about and clearly cannot read their own data.

It's honestly pretty farsical.

If we cut out the sarcasm of this thread, there'd likely be three to four cogent points to actually discuss, but per forum standards, that will all remain largely drowned out by the agenda prone rhetoric of certain players.

[MischiefSC]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

But balance tech how? Remember, in here, ask a question to three people and you will get 9 answers to the same question. I for one don't think that IS and Clan tech should be like for like the same across the board. That would be a lazy way to balance things, and kill the flavor of both factions. Different but equal should be possible.

I also don't think TTK should be reduced in any way from what it is. A little more durable IS mechs? Sure. More fragile Clan mechs? No. For example, I could see IS FF and ES providing a percentage extra armor or structure if equipped to offset the extra space it takes up, while Clan weapons and equipment have lower HP such that they can be broken easier via crits. I kinda like the idea of IS mechs being durable as hell at the expense of some speed and firepower, while Clan mechs maintain some speed and firepower advantages, but can't take quite the same sort of abuse as a well piloted IS mech.

Also think SSRM (and LRM) mechanics need a major overhaul. Self guided weapons shouldn't be an I Win button against aimed weapons, at any tier. However, they can't be useless at the upper tiers, either. :\

For example -

Both IS and CLAN have same penalty on ST loss for XL. IS XL is 3 slots, not 2. So IS gets like 5 pts bonus st structure with XL. Both Clan and IS get 15 pt CT structure buff with an STD.

Weapons largely the same as now.

Remove almost all quirks, both sides. Positive and negative.

IS endo/FF 2x the size of Clan, so IS Endo gets same tonnage saving as Clan Endo + FF. The FF savings is tiny so Clan flexibility to save 7 slots and pay extra 1-2 tons for armor offsets IS option to pay 14 slots to save 1-2 tons. On lights, where it's relevant, this also offsets Clan overall smaller/lighter weapons and the bigger benefit that is on lights.

IS DHS are larger and so both IS and Clan in engine heatsinks work the same and out of engine DHS for IS work slightly better.

However the IS loses all the existing quirks.

Then you go through and quirk up IS/Clan underprivileged mechs with bad boxes, hardpoint location, etc.

Balanced, but still same sort of performance differences we have now for fighting stats.

[justcallme A S H]

Hmmm T1 pilot balancing is a worry in many ways also...

Because, not all of them are decent or even work as a team... Plenty of T1s out there are, not great.

I'd sooner take a T3 player with the right attitude than a selfish T1 player. Win more games than you lose that way. Plus I was T2 for ages because all I did was QP. I made it from T2 (50% bar) to T1 (100%) in the space of about 3 weeks when FP3 was at its most dead... I'm sure there are similar situations there too.

Enough to skew the numbers? Honestly not sure there.

[MechaBattler]

Yeah, if they want to be lazy, they should just allow mixing the mechs. They're already taking that approach with FW as a whole. So I guess it wouldn't be too much of a problem for them.

But I would rather see them make some attempts at bridging the game. But **** it, whatever, they're not interested in new tech and every new mechanic they come up with people fill their diaper. I'm just gonna go play civ 5 or something...

Edit: Buff IS XL HP, buff standard HP, and introduce Light Fusion Engine with slightly buffed HP. That's all else I'm gonna say.

Edited by MechaBattler, 15 December 2016 - 07:25 PM.

[M A N T I S]

Tahawus, on 15 December 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

People arguing that there isn't an imbalace aren't going to change their tune. Pointing out evidence developed from the best available data, imperfect though it may be, has only prompted the age old response of denial, excuses, and personal attacks.

We have at least three analyses that clearly indicate a tech imbalance in favor of the clans and none indicating that there isn't one. PGI locked us into an IS vs Clan environment, and has validated a hypothesis I presented to my unit., Namely that this iteration of FW with limited options, and a significant imbalance in tech would blow up in PGI's face.

I only hope that they can recover from this, because they're going to lose what interest and tolerance remain very quickly.

Your evidence is the only one I accept, I don't want you thinking I deny it in any way. I will however note that there are IS choices that fall above the mean, and that many IS performers are missing from your analysis. I am able to understand that your analysis is, in fact, correct. You must admit, however, that it is very incomplete, and no definitive conclusion can be drawn from it.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Big Tin Man, on 15 December 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

The simple fix FW needs to eliminate pug stomping:

For scouting, must be tier 4 or better with 100 games played
For invasion, must be tier 3 or better with 200 games played

That alone would probably do it. Eliminate pug stomping by eliminating pugs. The game needs some experience gates to stop pugs from wrecking the hardcore game mode by filling one side with a disproportionate amount of inexperienced pilots. I know I'd play solo FW more if I knew I was only going to get tier 3 and better pilots, and not someone with 4 trial mechs in a dropdeck. I know PGI doesn't like the idea of locking game modes behind a grind, but it is quite frankly necessary.

I can agree with this in theory, but not necessarily in strict practice. Here's my particular situation, which may match others coming back to MWO...I am a returning vet, having played over 2k matches from April 2013 until the fall of 2014 (and then I left due to clan mech introduction and ensuing imbalances). PGI then came out with PSR ratings that took into account matches played only from January 2015 and forward, and because I didn't have any matches played between then and when I returned, PSR mechanics started me about 2/3 of the way in T5...weird, but ok, I rolled with it. I figured it wouldn't take me long to get out of T5, but even with playing about 100 matches since coming back, I am still about 10% and another 50-100 matches away from T4, and this is with getting green up-arrows in 44 of the last 65 matches that I've tracked (along with 5 even matches, and 16 down arrows). It's a slow, painful process compared to those that start a new account and end up in T4 after their cadet matches are over, but you would still pick a T4 player with exactly 100 matches played for a scouting mission over someone like me with 2k matches whose T5 rating was determined by an imperfect method of conversion to PSR?

[M A N T I S]

Just mix the mechs, I don't care anymore. I guarantee nothing will change. You know why? It's a skill difference right now, not a tech difference. It's just easier to blame it on tech rather than skill, because then nobody has to wear it, and that's the truth.

See you all on the battlefield.

[Jarl Dane]

M A N T I S, on 15 December 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

Just mix the mechs, I don't care anymore. I guarantee nothing will change. You know why? It's a skill difference right now, not a tech difference. It's just easier to blame it on tech rather than skill, because then nobody has to wear it, and that's the truth.

Did you actually watch my video? Simply stating it is a skill difference means nothing unless you can address why that difference exists. It doesn't just happen magically, it is not predestined. There is something driving those players to the clans.

In my video I lay out the case as to why I believe it is tech that drives them there. What is your theory?

[RaptorCWS]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

Did you actually watch my video? Simply stating it is a skill difference means nothing unless you can address why that difference exists. It doesn't just happen magically, it is not predestined. There is something driving those players to the clans.

In my video I lay out the case as to why I believe it is tech that drives them there. What is your theory?

they could just like clan better from MW2 days

[SlyJJ]

Mech the Dane, you are the man. So many on the IS side have been bringing this up for a long time. The funny thing is, just as you predicted, most of the hardcore clanners simply will not accept any amount of facts you give them. Clan tech is overwhelmingly superior, better range, better damage, faster mechs, no instadeath XL engines. Some of the clanners are willfully ignorant. You offered a very concise reason to justify your claim that clan mechs are OP- Not a SINGLE clanner has offered any evidence AGAINST your claim- the only thing they can attempt to do is strawman and attempt hypothetical caveats.

YES Im all for mixing the tech once and for all. Mostly because it'll piss the clanners off, because they wont hold a significant edge anymore. Dont want us to mix tech? Then push for IS to get some new weapons clanners- we're tired of fighting you with what are obsolete clan tech.

Funny thing is if you mix the tech, you'll see so many IS with clan mech in their drop deck for fairly obvious reasons. The clanners that are against this know this, which is why they dont want it. If they really thought IS had good stuff, then surely we'd just keep pickin IS mechs, right?

We all know it- its just the willfully ignorant, and they're not unlike religious people- they dislik facts and data

[Dex Spero]

RaptorCWS, on 15 December 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

they could just like clan better from MW2 days

HAHAHAHA the lengths to which people will go to avoid confirming the tech difference.

Anyone who likes clan better because of the old games likes clan better because they have superior technology. Wasn't that one of the goals in the old games? Didn't you get excited whenever you salvaged a new clan mech or weapon? Anybody remember this one:

"This is it! This it it! The Clan Gauss rifle! For when you absolutely have to take an enemy mech's head clean off! I love my job." (or close to that).

Edited by Dex Spero, 15 December 2016 - 08:33 PM.

[WANTED]

http://mwomercs.com/...change-12152016

Greetings MechWarriors

The following adjustments to DropDeck Tonnage limits are being applied to Clan forces

Clan Invasion DropDeck tonnage limit reduced to 240 tonnes
Clan Scouting DropDeck tonnage limit remains at 55 tonnes

Inner Sphere Invasion DropDeck tonnage limit remains at 265 tonnes.
Inner Sphere Scouting DropDeck tonnage limit remains at 55 tonnes.

We will continue to monitor the distribution of high-tier players within the Clan and Inner Sphere populations, and will implement changes to DropDeck tonnages based on those distributions as one method for improving Conflict balance.

Edited by WANTED, 15 December 2016 - 08:27 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Jep Jorgensson, on 15 December 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

2. As to why all the big mercs are in the Clans right now, the answer is simple: the Marauder IIC. Phase 4.1 coincided with the release of this very popular Clan mech and thus why the big merc units are currently fighting for the Clans. If it had been an IS mech that was just released, then this would not be he case. Not to worry though. When things start to get constricting for us Clan loyalists, the mercs will leave for IS space to take advantage of their new tonnage "balance" while we are left stuck with the reduced weight.

LoL Why do people keep saying this? The mercs have been clan for the last year. The last time they changed to IS they push clans back to their planet because IS had few OP mechs with over done quirks.

[SlyJJ]

Dex Spero, on 15 December 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

HAHAHAHA the lengths to which people will go to avoid confirming the tech difference.

Anyone who likes clan better because of the old games likes clan better because they have superior technology. Wasn't that one of the goals in the old games? Didn't you get excited whenever you salvaged a new clan mech or weapon. Anybody remember this one:

"This is it! This it it! The Clan Gauss rifle! For when you absolutely have to take an enemy mech's head clean off! I love my job." (or close to that).

Indeed- they love the idea of thinking its their awesome piloting skill or something...

Thats why all the good units are clan... ALL

[Dex Spero]

SlyJJ, on 15 December 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

YES Im all for mixing the tech once and for all.

This scares me.

I loved Dane's video, but like many I don't agree with the idea of IS dropping with clan mechs. I applaud the spirit of what he is trying to do but it is entirely possible that in 12 months there would be no more IS drop decks. Although people will say "you can still drop in IS mechs if you want", few people will choose to do so. I worry that if we mix the techs the game will just be Clan v Clan.

Who knows, though, maybe that would be for the best? At least we wouldn't have to go round and round trying to get everyone on the same page with arguments that have been used ad nauseam. The truth is the Clan pilots who think the game is balanced are never going to see it any other way because they simply don't want to. The brain's ability to shut down reason and embrace the sweet bliss of denial is outstanding.

In fact, I think I will go to the Land of Denial now. I'm a handsome, successful man with a 32" waist and a full head of hair...

[Monkey Lover]

SlyJJ, on 15 December 2016 - 08:28 PM, said:

Indeed- they love the idea of thinking its their awesome piloting skill or something...

Thats why all the good units are clan... ALL

I used to use my summoner a lot but Its was kind of strange my piloting skill increased 50% the day the loyalist summoner showed up I never knew how great of as assault pilot i was until i played my kdk3 too

[SlyJJ]

Dex Spero, on 15 December 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

This scares me.

I loved Dane's video, but like many I don't agree with the idea of IS dropping with clan mechs. I applaud the spirit of what he is trying to do but it is entirely possible that in 12 months there would be no more IS drop decks. Although people will say "you can still drop in IS mechs if you want", few people will choose to do so. I worry that if we mix the techs the game will just be Clan v Clan.

Who knows, though, maybe that would be for the best? At least we wouldn't have to go round and round trying to get everyone on the same page with arguments that have been used ad nauseam. The truth is the Clan pilots who think the game is balanced are never going to see it any other way because they simply don't want to. The brain's ability to shut down reason and embrace the sweet bliss of denial is outstanding.

In fact, I think I will go to the Land of Denial now. I'm a handsome, successful man with a 32" waist and a full head of hair...

I completely understand and I didnt initially want clan tech, I just wanted new tech. Problem is the cry hard clanners want to keep us as little a threat as possible. Granted the game will be pretty much pointless once you mix the tech, but if these clanners dont stop whining and stonewalling our attempts to balance the game, I have no problem ruining the entire premise of the game to piss them off. Sure it wont feel like theres any real objective anymore, but it beats getting steamrolled by kodiaks and "git good" reasoning

[Dex Spero]

Monkey Lover, on 15 December 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

I used to use my summoner a lot but Its was kind of strange my piloting skill increased 50% the day the loyalist summoner showed up I never knew how great of as assault pilot i was until i played my kdk3 too

You too? My first game in a Clan heavy I died only 4 minutes into the game (I got caught out of position) but somehow scored around 350 damage. My second game I scored something like 600 which, at the time, was significantly above average for me.

Strange how those clan mechs helped both of us realize how much better we are then we previously thought! That's some awesome magic right there

Though I do agree with Dane's view that I'm providing anecdotal evidence. It is better we look at the evidence, if we can find the courage to face a truth we may not like.

EDIT: I feel compelled to add that the game isn't nearly as one-sided as some people are making it out to be. Those clanners who are saying that teamwork and coordination make up the difference are 100% correct. I think some people are giving too much weight to the tech difference issue. When a game starts the tech difference only truly changes the outcome if the teams are otherwise balanced. The problem isn't clan tech changing in-game balance, its that clan tech has changed pre-game balance. If I've understood Dane's video correctly, the tech difference, though not as dire as some would claim, is still enough to draw the majority of merc units to the Clan side of FW, resulting in a lack of balance.

Edited by Dex Spero, 15 December 2016 - 08:48 PM.