391 replies to this topic

[Jarl Dane]

Count Zero 74, on 15 December 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

That's what I called unbalanced

It's probably less noble than you realize to contribute nothing to a discussion.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 15 December 2016 - 04:49 AM.

[naterist]

ignore him dane, the counts a troll. he talks big, but he gets rolled like a potato every time ive seen him in FW. was in an 11 man with mj12 and he was the only potatopilot to go up the middle on sulforous.

he aint nothin to get distracted by.

edit:to be clear, he was the fill in player.

Edited by naterist, 15 December 2016 - 04:53 AM.

[WANTED]

I just feel special that my reply was used in Dane's video..lol. Thanks! Great video btw, I agree, numbers don't lie and neither do your eyes. ( all Tournaments and MRBC I have watched use a dominant amount of Clan mechs ) There is no shame in using them cause THEY ARE BETTER.

[DivBy0]

@Count: When your personal opinions is, that IS-Tech is "easier". So why are you against mix the tech? So that the poor overskilled Claner kann play with the quirkmonsters too? Shouldn´t you support Dane to become more and more balanced games?

And of course I watch your stream often *g*

Count Zero 74, on 15 December 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

- Yes I "will play the game"

- I'm not telling u anything bout lore. I give a **** about lore and all the LoreWarriors out there are a joke

- Watch my stream and watch me play in Clan mechs. Easier my *** lol.

(well, when I play Clan mechs that is, cause I play mostly IS cause its so much easier)

Edited by von Haudegen, 15 December 2016 - 05:13 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

3 letters:
MRM

Edited by Karl Streiger, 15 December 2016 - 05:07 AM.

[DivBy0]

The real problem with Count is, that he isn´t a potato. In fact he is one of the best player in the game. Maybe a player with a tunnelvision but surely a very good player and a very good teamplayer. When he goes in Sulfur to the middle, than only to distract the enemy

naterist, on 15 December 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

ignore him dane, the counts a troll. he talks big, but he gets rolled like a potato every time ive seen him in FW. was in an 11 man with mj12 and he was the only potatopilot to go up the middle on sulforous.

he aint nothin to get distracted by.

edit:to be clear, he was the fill in player.

[Darth Hotz]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

Thank you so much!

Our unit has the same problems and more and more get frustrated and change sides or (even worse) say goodbye and leave.

I totally agree with your analysis, but I disagree with your solution of letting IS use clan and vice versa. I think this will lead to 90% of clan mechs and 10% of Warhammers as the only IS survivors. It also punishes the IS loyalists that have mainly IS mechs in their hangar, they would be forced to start the mega grind to get clan mechs.

I think the main reason of imbalance is the the CXL engine. If the IS could use this engine a lot of problems would be fixed, without fraggin up IS loyalist and without forcing them to give up their mechs.

[M A N T I S]

Wait, What? You're taking a solicited, opinion-based survey result and passing that off as empirical evidence? Where are the underlying numbers, data, and calculation PROVING these gathered opinions are real. All you have is some data showing that the average of 300 people's IMPRESSIONS are that clan machines are better - no sh*t. That impression is already firmly established, but your "data" doesn't prove anything beyond that.

As you can see, I'm merc. We're going IS soon, and I look forward to it (because I also enjoy my IS mechs, go figure).

Bone up on your understanding of statistics before you present to a community. Performing a detailed analysis with inappropriate assumptions around the underlying data does NOT make your conclusion valid - it just means you're confused and/or don't understand what your underlying data even represents.

Once again, I remind you, I have no dog in this fight, but this "finding" is just a piece of confused horsesh*t.

[Count Zero 74]

naterist, on 15 December 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

ignore him dane, the counts a troll. he talks big, but he gets rolled like a potato every time ive seen him in FW. was in an 11 man with mj12 and he was the only potatopilot to go up the middle on sulforous.

he aint nothin to get distracted by.

edit:to be clear, he was the fill in player.

Match just ended 5 min ago, troll harder scrub

[M A N T I S]

But wait - I actually want what you propose as your final suggestion. Keep the units where they are for the time being, lock them in. Open up dropdecks such that IS can bring clan mechs - fine.

I would be utterly and completely shocked if there would be any discernable difference in the IS's ability to defend itself. I expect the same win/loss rate would simply continue unchanged.

Edited by M A N T I S, 15 December 2016 - 05:32 AM.

[meteorol]

Spider00x, on 15 December 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

a COMP CW unit

On topic:

There are several reasons why IS keeps getting crushed and you mentioned quite a few of them. Clan tech has a slight edge, ever since the multiple over the top blanket nerfs by PGI to IS top performing mechs (It also had the edge for most of the time in general, save gigaquirks). So people and units who play nothing but top performing mechs gravitate towards Clans.

This effect leads to and is further intensified by IS being a melting pot for terrible PUGS. Yeah, i know, baseless allegation, personal assessment and so on. But i played for every faction and i got to rank 6-10 for all IS factions, and the amount of terribadness i have seen exceeds everything i have encountered with any clan faction.

Once during phase 2 i'd asked my buddies if i could switch to IS contract again (we are a small unit of IRL friends). Their answer was "no, we don't want to play with IS pugs". Not "we don't want to play against clan mechs", but "we don't want to play with IS pugs". That's how bad their estimation of IS pugs was.

IS PUGS being notorious for being terrible is yet another reason for players who can hold their own weight to stay away from IS contracts. I can't count how many times i have seen IS puggels getting crushed 48:9 in a 12 pugs vs. 12 pugs match, and i don't really look forward to be on the receiving end of that, with 11 dudes on my team failing to break 1k dmg.

Solopugging CW is somewhat like playing russian roulette anyway, and taking an IS contract is like adding 3 bullets to the chamber.

[tee5]

M A N T I S, on 15 December 2016 - 05:28 AM, said:

... All you have is some data showing that the average of 300 people's IMPRESSIONS are that clan machines are better - no sh*t. That impression is already firmly established, but your "data" doesn't prove anything beyond that.
...

He is trying to use all the data he can get, and he is trying to use data. It is better than just saying Clan is OP, with not data or evidence. if he would have access to all the datas of PGI he would use it. But since PGI is not giving us the data, we can only use what we got and that is World Championship, MRBC, and these 300 people Impressions, etc.

Still better than just one guy saying in a video CLAN is OP, please NERF.
Because then guys like you would say: HEY BUT THAT IS JUST YOUR OPINION! SHOW ME DATA!

meteorol, on 15 December 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

...
was "no, we don't want to play with IS pugs". Not "we don't want to play against clan mechs", but "we don't want to play with IS pugs". That's how bad their estimation of IS pugs was.
...

a beginner PUG has no c-bills, so he has not the c-bills to buy the expensive clan mechs.
So he can only buy the cheaper IS mechs. So it is more likely to play on IS-side in CW.
Alias all the new players, not so skilled players, because they are beginners play on IS side.

Those guys who have more c-bills to afford clan mechs, have more experience, because they played longer to grind all these c-bills for the clan mechs. Now that they have clan-mechs, they can go on Clan side. Ergo not so many unskilled players on Clan-side.

[SneekiBreeki]

Tbh balance is pretty close atm but you know what? I agree, let everybody bring in whatever they want for pgi has already thrown out every little bit of faction identity outta the window and there was little to nothing about lore in this game to begin with.

I for one would be more than happy to bring in my beloved IS mechs as clan into matches (not to say that i also look forward to the next set of excuses thorwn out by the usual bads if we ever get the ability to bring in said mixed decks).

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

And what drives the skill level difference? Why are all the competitive teams in the clans right now? What is the drive that got them there? It didn't just happen.

Games and like minded players are attractive.
Thats why good players kept rotating around the frr and jadefalcon in the past. (with the unified border this will probably fade into obscurity)
Additionaly we had many clan mech packs in the past, which kept the interest high.

Long tom and the mwowc/other leagues took a big share of the population away.
The people that stayed, sharped their claws against each other.
Atleast my unit had constant fighting for months on the Kurita/SmokeJaguar border and we greatly improved and grow in that time.

Edited by Dark Wooki33 IIC, 15 December 2016 - 06:38 AM.

[Tarogato]

Count Zero 74, on 15 December 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

<IS victory screenshot>

Match just ended 5 min ago, troll harder scrub

https://www.google.c...cdotal+evidence

https://www.google.c...tive%20evidence

https://www.google.c...ical%20evidence

von Haudegen, on 15 December 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

The real problem with Count is, that he isn´t a potato. In fact he is one of the best player in the game. Maybe a player with a tunnelvision but surely a very good player and a very good teamplayer. When he goes in Sulfur to the middle, than only to distract the enemy

*pulls up his spreadsheet tool that looks up values from the Quickplay Leaderboards*

*glances at the naming and shaming clause in the Code of Conduct*

*snickers and walks away*

Edited by Tarogato, 15 December 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[WANTED]

What tee is saying is also what I think. IS is the minor leagues and once they understand the game and see the clan mech they switch

[Tarogato]

I replied to the OP on reddit, but I'll copy it over here, too, because why not.

---

You know... this compelled me more to supporting a move that allows clan mechs in IS and vice-versa... more than any argument ever has.
But I still gotta stamp my foot loudly and say "no" to the suggestion you make at the end. To "solve" the problem by allowing the innersphere side of CW to play clan mechs is to ignore the balance problem in just the way the way that you expressed we shouldn't be ignoring the balance problem. It's a straight cop-out. It doesn't take that much to bring clan and IS to parity with one another - it's been reasonable well-balanced in the past (some would argue that IS was the stronger half at certain points). It just takes a little bit of action. You make a strong and convincing campaign, I only wish you'd direct it at actually solving the problem rather than applying another bandaid in true PGI fashion.


Reversing the recent clan DHS capacity buff would be a good start. Buffing many of the base weapon stats on IS (particularly velocity and rate of fire/cooldown to start with) to match the values on competitively quirked mechs would be another logical step. Buffing IS DHS is an option. Targeting mobility nerfs (much like was done to the KDK) toward the overperforming unquirked clan chasses is not completely out of question. (and before you say it, yes I realise that the mobility nerfs to the KDK unjustly affected more than the KDK-3. That was pretty ****. But that was PGI's fault for not understanding the problem, not the fault of the people who whined for the nerfs.) Reducing quirks on the overperforming actually-quirked clan chassis (such as nova) is certainly an option. Nerfing some clan weapons is an option (cGauss already received a not-insignificant nerf to it's explosion chance), particularly the cERPPC velocity which permeates the meta right now, and Targeting Computers' velocity buffs exacerbating it. That's actually a lot of avenues we have available at this time. Even if we completely half-heartedly changed them all at once, we'd probably still see a noticeable improvement in parity. There's really no excuse for PGI to be ignoring the data that they have (and they should have lots more than us, they're the developer for gods sake) and not making changes targeted at where the imbalance exists. Don't let them get away with inaction, and certainly don't let them get away with making changes in the wrong direction which they are so prone to making (like the recent clan DHS buff.)


Oh, and think about it this way. From your perspective, how many players from the FRR hub do you think would immediately change their decks to clan mechs to be more competitive? How many players across the entire innersphere? I think it's very safe to assume that more players on the IS are attached to their factions' mechs than the clan players. IS players will be less likely to budge, more likely to be stubborn and keep playing their nostalgia mechs (and decks that they invested so much time and money into buying and leveling), even if they are at a competitive disadvantage because of it. And they will still whine about balance, you know they will.

[Natural Predator]

A lot of this problem would be solved with people getting together and dropping together and, you know, using meta. I dropped all evening IS side and the biggest problem I see is in the mech bay and lack of coordination. When I dropped with a coordinated team it was fine and I won 100 percent of my matches. Which thank you to MJ12 and company for that.

Edited by Ragnar Baron Leiningen, 15 December 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[H I A S]

meteorol, on 15 December 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

Quote

On topic:

There are several reasons why IS keeps getting crushed and you mentioned quite a few of them. Clan tech has a slight edge, ever since the multiple over the top blanket nerfs by PGI to IS top performing mechs (It also had the edge for most of the time in general, save gigaquirks). So people and units who play nothing but top performing mechs gravitate towards Clans.

This effect leads to and is further intensified by IS being a melting pot for terrible PUGS. Yeah, i know, baseless allegation, personal assessment and so on. But i played for every faction and i got to rank 6-10 for all IS factions, and the amount of terribadness i have seen exceeds everything i have encountered with any clan faction.

Once during phase 2 i'd asked my buddies if i could switch to IS contract again (we are a small unit of IRL friends). Their answer was &quot;no, we don't want to play with IS pugs&quot;. Not &quot;we don't want to play against clan mechs&quot;, but &quot;we don't want to play with IS pugs&quot;. That's how bad their estimation of IS pugs was.

IS PUGS being notorious for being terrible is yet another reason for players who can hold their own weight to stay away from IS contracts. I can't count how many times i have seen IS puggels getting crushed 48:9 in a 12 pugs vs. 12 pugs match, and i don't really look forward to be on the receiving end of that, with 11 dudes on my team failing to break 1k dmg.

Solopugging CW is somewhat like playing russian roulette anyway, and taking an IS contract is like adding 3 bullets to the chamber.

full agree.
even at the time of gigaquirks i sayed to my team that we should stay Clamz because IS-Pugs are mostly horrible (without FRR and some kuritas) and i only play CW when drunk.

Edited by arivio, 15 December 2016 - 06:59 AM.

[nehebkau]

Count Zero 74, on 15 December 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

What imbalance? Population? Skill? Tech?

Tech - No

Population/Skill - Yes

WRONG!

Clan XL engine is the game changer -- that is tech. Free CASE is tech and it is important. (no wasted slots) In a game that has degraded to alpha-strike and hide, the more weapons you can alpha the better your mech and Clan mechs are alpha machines.

You want instant balance? Make IS XL engines behave EXACTLY the same as clan XL engines.

You will get: More and bigger weapons on IS mechs.
You will get: Faster IS mechs with current loads

@ DANE
I already posted a poll about letting everyone drop in what they wanted and 75% of respondents said no. Seriously I think changing IS XL engines is the best choice.

Edited by nehebkau, 15 December 2016 - 06:55 AM.