391 replies to this topic

[M A N T I S]

To Dane: I regret my earlier tone, I apologize.

I get frustrated at reading the argument (excuse?) of "clans OP". It really drives me bonkers to see that as the IS battlecry. I really do love my IS mechs, and I do every bit as well (most times better) in them. Especially my beloved grasshopper and cicada.

I would just rather promote a sentiment of coming together, unifying, setting up drop deck guides and builds for new players, etc.

I truly see no disadvantage to my IS mechs.

So, I thank you for opening the discussion and tabling data of any sort. I was rough on you and acted like a little b*tch. So, apologies are in order. Although I stand by my points, I was rude.

Edited by M A N T I S, 15 December 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[CIag]

Balance is pretty close now. I actually prefer playing IS mechs, but won't oppose to them getting buff

[Joey Tankblaster]

So now that we have found out that balance between IS and clan is problematic we discover that the community itself is problematic. Sad.

Quote

Wait, What? You're taking a solicited, opinion-based survey result and passing that off as empirical evidence? Where are the underlying numbers, data, and calculation PROVING these gathered opinions are real. All you have is some data showing that the average of 300 people's IMPRESSIONS are that clan machines are better - no sh*t. That impression is already firmly established, but your "data" doesn't prove anything beyond that.

Search for the results&analysis of the light, medium, heavy and assault leaderboards.

Edited by Joey Tankblaster, 15 December 2016 - 07:04 AM.

[CK16]

My stance is ok let IS use Clan mechs...and vice versa...However at a penalty of weight...If you bring say a Kodiak 3 as IS it should be like 120tons worth of your tonnage, a TBR 90 tons, Stormcrow at 65 tons. Arctic Cheetah at 40 tons ect. (These are just examples not what I would argue they need to be) but the idea is its not cheap for run Clan mechs for the IS.....and vice versa for the Clans...I still want to see IS and Clans have to use majority of thier tonnage on thier own factions mechs. If you allow IS to run clan mechs willy nilly that is all it will dive into is all clan mechs...FFS why not just go back and fight clan v clan then only?

[SneekiBreeki]

nehebkau, on 15 December 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

*snip*

Not until we get the revamped skill trees (and with them the elimination of the structure quirks).

[Natred]

2 grasshoppers killing me in one alpha in my shadow cat from full health whIle moving perpendicular to them by hitting me ct halfway through their laser burn must be underpowered while using my masc. Nope not overpowered. Or maybe they were just pro level pilots.

Edited by Natred, 15 December 2016 - 07:26 AM.

[CK16]

It is no secert that IS has a huge edge with PPFD alphas anyone that says clans win this need to go against most laser vomit IS chassis....like the guy above me said, having your torso's alphas off before you even know your hit is annoying as hell. Seriously anyone that says oh go torso twist needs to go see that it is humanly impossible against some IS chassis to twit off the damage, burn times are that quick and when your rocking a 50+ alpha that has ranges of up to 500m it doesn't take much to wreck alot of Clan mechs like this.

Edited by CK16, 15 December 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Tahawus]

MWO has moved into a post-factual space. Data and verifiable or statistical information no longer carry more weight than individual and anecdotal opinion.

Some months back I posted a thread where I applied statistical tools to the leaderboard data. The results very much align with Taragatos and Danes info. While not a clean comparison, in general clan mechs had a statistically significant advantage in scores to the tune of ~8%. Responses were predictable and again much the same as we've seen in this thread.

[WANTED]

Tah is right. I saw his data and the guy knows his stuff on this. Posting on Tah behalf...


https://mwomercs.com...sts-are-op-but/

Edited by WANTED, 15 December 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

While this shouldn't come as news to anyone, it's good to have someone point this out in a clear and consise manner, while wearing a hat that exudes an undeniable air of authority. So obviously, I'm happy with the premise of the video.

I have to disagree vehemently with the solution, however. As has been said already, it's a cop-out. I don't like the fact that heavier mechs = better mechs and I don't like that clan mechs = better mechs. It grinds my gears to see Kodiak players who puff their chest and think they're God's gift to MWO because they know how to copy a build from metamechs.com. You see them in the solo queue all the time. "Oh sorry, guys. I couldn't carry you all to victory, but I did 800 dmg, lol." Just from a sporting perspective, it grinds my gears to see those munchkins.

Furthermore, it's not like the balance between Clan mechs and IS mechs has gone back and forth constantly since 2014. It's been pretty consistent. At no point has the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow been mediocre. Granted, it hasn't always been the case that the best mech in every weight class was a Clan mech (the Firestarter reigned before the ACH, for example), but nevertheless, the graph has pointed pretty clearly in one direction since Clan Invasion Wave 1. So for PGI to just throw their hands in the air and say "Well, golly, I guess Clans are just always going to be better, so we may as well give up" is a huge cop-out.

Apart from brief periods, when the ERPPC TDR-9S and Black Knight were pretty powerful, for example, the top mechs in the game have tended to be Clan mechs. And in CW / FP, it hasn't been such a pressing issue when if had better light mechs or better assault mechs, because they could just make a great dropdeck out of heavies and mediums anyway.

TL;DR - Time for PGI to actually do some of that "aggressive balancing" ™ and fix this imbalance. If they can't figure it out, do another roundtable that doesn't involve buckets.

PS: This is definitely not the alt account of Alistair Winter, a member of Isengrim.

[CK16]

nehebkau, on 15 December 2016 - 08:10 AM, said:

That is the same anecdotal BS they we hear from both sides.... ask most IS players and they will say "Try having a laser vomit nova/crow/timber/hellbringer/etc. take you out with one alpha to the ct"

We must avoid the "I died so the other mech is OP" BS mentality. The simple truth is that majority players will gravitate to the mech they think will perform best.

and I reiterate:

Make IS XL engines behave the same as Clan XL engines. THE SAME!

If PGI does not plan to add the LFE ever sure, only 1 tweek. IS get a 25% penalty to the Clans 20% (3 crits/12 engine crits vs 2 crits/10 engine crits.) If they add the LFE then why even bother with them besides gaining 1 crit per ST now.

Edited by CK16, 15 December 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Graugger]

The tech is finely balanced, not a single flaw to speak of.

1. Get good.
2. Get good.
3. Get good.
4. Go clan or go home.

^ Forum attitude 101.

[RaptorCWS]

tee5, on 15 December 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

He is trying to use all the data he can get, and he is trying to use data. It is better than just saying Clan is OP, with not data or evidence. if he would have access to all the datas of PGI he would use it. But since PGI is not giving us the data, we can only use what we got and that is World Championship, MRBC, and these 300 people Impressions, etc.

Still better than just one guy saying in a video CLAN is OP, please NERF.
Because then guys like you would say: HEY BUT THAT IS JUST YOUR OPINION! SHOW ME DATA!


a beginner PUG has no c-bills, so he has not the c-bills to buy the expensive clan mechs.
So he can only buy the cheaper IS mechs. So it is more likely to play on IS-side in CW.
Alias all the new players, not so skilled players, because they are beginners play on IS side.

Those guys who have more c-bills to afford clan mechs, have more experience, because they played longer to grind all these c-bills for the clan mechs. Now that they have clan-mechs, they can go on Clan side. Ergo not so many unskilled players on Clan-side.

you can about afford a mad dog after playing all the boosted cbill matches for being a noob and completing the tutorial. which means a warhammer or grasshopper or thunderbolt really isnt that far out of reach for a new player. but for some reason lrm boat atlas and lrm jenner are the go to mech builds for is pugs.

[Deltree Zero]

Great video!

However, like others here I respectfully disagree with your solution.

Blending clan and IS tech basically makes everyone a clanner. If IS mechs are inferior (which they most certainly are and everyone knows, this is not news) and as a Davion loyalist I can choose clearly superior clan mechs instead of IS mechs, half of the mechs in the game have become truly useless and no one will use them. I do not want to play clan mechs, I am a Davion loyalist and that loyalty should have value in MWO. (you know, like planets in FP are supposed to have value or why bother?)

Increasing the drop deck tonnage is an old floppy glovebox bandaid from who-knows-when and cannot permanently fix MWO's gaping abyss of a head wound. Work and coding (which I hear is very hard) is required to balance ALL mechs.

#1.) Suggestion: XL engines must stop being a death sentence for IS pilots. But that is only the beginning.

When most quirks are removed in the new skill tree system, everything changes....AGAIN. In massive ways. PGI needs to give players a reason to line up vs the clans. Marching to our deaths just so canned clanners can troll "GG EZ" and wipe the floor with us and have someone to slaughter is getting O L D. If we are not allowed to compete fairly with clans, they will have no one to play with, people will quit the game, stop buying mechpacks and PGI will stop getting paid.

MWO players deserve a fair and balanced game based on skill. IS vs Clan should be a play style choice and not a win\lose decision.

[Positive Mental Attitude]

Natred, on 15 December 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

2 grasshoppers killing me in one alpha in my shadow cat from full health whIle moving perpendicular to them by hitting me ct halfway through their laser burn must be underpowered while using my masc. Nope not overpowered. Or maybe they were just pro level pilots.

is this a funny? One hopper will pop a cada easy enough.

[CK16]

nehebkau, on 15 December 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

That is all just simple numbers crap that I think that most IS pilots would be fine with -- the whole point being that a larger and lighter engine that doesn't kill you when you lose a side torso would balance things out regardless of the minuscule reciprocity tweaks you are mentioning.

Agree'ed. My concern though is with if they ever add LFE's in, a change to IS XL now my harm LFE viability being as LFE's biggest draw is smaller and can survive a ST lose (due to TT engine crit rules and 2 crits in each ST), but are heavier than XL's though still.

I could care less about Standard engines, being a clan loyalist they are available sure but they are already invalid for majority of builds and no one complains about it for Clan mechs.

[Graugger]

Well PGI has already stated there will be no new tech so the entire (make LFE viability) is mute, IS isn't getting any new tech.

[M A N T I S]

Joey Tankblaster, on 15 December 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

So now that we have found out that balance between IS and clan is problematic we discover that the community itself is problematic. Sad.

Search for the results&analysis of the light, medium, heavy and assault leaderboards.

It's doesn't breakdown by clan or IS though, does it? Just by weight class I think.

EDIT: Understand what you meant now, ignore my question.

Edited by M A N T I S, 15 December 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[CK16]

Graugger, on 15 December 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Well PGI has already stated there will be no new tech so the entire (make LFE viability) is mute, IS isn't getting any new tech.

PGI has more said until they feel balance is good enough for them to add new toys. BUT they need to come out and say now either not for a long time (2018+) or they will add some new tech in the new year...it's needed now more than ever.

Mainly clan clones for IS (ER's, UAC's, LBX's, Streaks, LFE's) would help alot cause now they can balance proper weapons to each other. Also give Clans 2 things...LAMS (Laser anti missile system) and heavy lasers....heavy lasers become the opposite of standard lasers, hot as balls but packing a large punch and short ranged, you could not boat these at all, these would be added to help hard point starved clan mechs mainly.

The totally new weapons like MRM's, RAC's, Heavy and light Gauss, ATM's. Ect. Should not be added till those above are added and balanced.

[Kmieciu]

You all seem to forget that IS XL takes 20% more critical slots than clan XL. Therefore it should be 20% better. That's balancing 101.

And don't tell me that IS mech are cheaper! Once you buy that big XL along with dhs Endo and ferro you will exceed the price of a clan omnimech. Because you had to pay for an useless STD engine that you have to replace.
Oh wait. You won't buy ferro because you'll run out of slots. And forget about having 30DHS. And engine swapping does not work in FW, you gotta buy 4 engines just like the clanners do.