391 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 15 December 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

There should be rough equivalence of competent builders on the IS side as the clan side.

Not necessarily. You have to consider population demographics as well. I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of the experienced IS player base is more into playing their own lore-type builds, and would scoff at mechlab optimization.

Not to mention, the MAD-IIC just came out. If it were up to me my unit would have gone Clan so I could try FP and level those mechs.

Frankly, if you aren't bringing primarily Warhammers, Grasshoppers, Battlemasters, or Banshees, you really have no right to complain about balance.

[MischiefSC]

Obelus, on 15 December 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

Agreed with the video except for the proposed solution. My preference would be to have the Clans and IS balanced in a some way that still gives us two unique factions.

Possible Example:

If the Clans are generally faster, more versatile, and have better ranged weapons then IS could be slightly tanky-er and have better short ranged weapons. Something where you buff some facet of IS capabilities to help them compete.

We've tried this, it doesn't work. It's why we're in the situation we're in.

12man to 12man of equal skill IS and Clan is pretty well balanced, especially with more tonnage for the IS. However this doesn't translate into pugs.

Better survivability and speed always works regardless of player skill. More tonnage and niche weapon advantages (ppfld) only work if the the player is skilled enough to leverage them.

It needs a more direct and proportional balance.

[Joey Tankblaster]

I always liked the idea of IS generally beeing more durable and Clan mech somehow fragile. Why not (over the board) buff IS armour by a 5-15% margin?

[Kin3ticX]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 December 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Frankly, if you aren't bringing primarily Warhammers, Grasshoppers, Battlemasters, or Banshees, you really have no right to complain about balance.

I have only played two FP matches since the patch but its an easy bet to assume they are not bringing the best possible IS decks.

They are probably running standard everything which means they are slow and or undergunned and also running very low tier IS chassis with poopy builds on them on top of it all.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 15 December 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Joey Tankblaster, on 15 December 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

I always liked the idea of IS generally beeing more durable and Clan mech somehow fragile. Why not (over the board) buff IS armour by a 5-15% margin?

Because CXL gives you 10+ tons of extra weight *or* a huge speed and maneuver bonus while having a STD engine survivability. Just an armor bonus doesn't offset that.

[Big Tin Man]

Finally watched the video, and I like the idea. Victor Steiner-Davion was driving a Daishi in 3050 so why not allow the IS a limited number of clan mechs in the drop deck? Lie 1-2 max. Tying it to FW rank seems like a legit idea as well to keep people from moving around too much.

I don't think clan should be able to run IS mechs though because of that clanner pride.

[CK16]

I am just sitting here very concerned that enough IS loyalist are going to cry hard enough and a balance pass will happen with massive knee jerks to IS buffs and nerf hammers to clans and then we end up where clans get rolled back....keep in mind when 3/4 Clans could nt push out start of last FW, remember Ghost Bear FRR fought over a single planet for weeks!?

Where was the IS boys then complaining about balance? I understand no one wants to be face rolled...but then again watch your knee jerk and blaming the tech....PGI has yet to really address the issue of Mercs having complete freedom on where to fight and not where they might be needed instead?

Also to all you FRR warriors watching your planets get conquered, do not forget your destiny and ours (Clan Ghost Bear) is heading for the same path

Edited by CK16, 15 December 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[Jman5]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 December 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Not necessarily. You have to consider population demographics as well. I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of the experienced IS player base is more into playing their own lore-type builds, and would scoff at mechlab optimization.

Not to mention, the MAD-IIC just came out. If it were up to me my unit would have gone Clan so I could try FP and level those mechs.

Frankly, if you aren't bringing primarily Warhammers, Grasshoppers, Battlemasters, or Banshees, you really have no right to complain about balance.

Let's assume this is true and 100% of the reason why Clans win disproportionately over IS. Even if balance is absolutely perfect between clans and IS. If the IS population at large is bringing bad lore builds in Faction play enough to so completely screw up the WLR, it still merits some counter-balancing in FP.

Doing nothing because maybe theoretically there is some balance if you bring a small subset of mechs and have a good team, doesn't help when the situation on the ground is showing 70:30 win ratio across the entire population.

There comes a point where you just have to stop overthinking weapon/mech theorycrafting balance and just say: OK clans are crushing IS, we need to pull some levers until the WLR begins to even out more. If the IS is filled to the brim with dumb loretards, you have to account for that in some way or else FP dies.

Edited by Jman5, 15 December 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

My experiences haven't been correlating well with your data, but I do agree with your solution. I'd like to see fully mixed tech in game, being able to put a CXL in an IS mech or IS ballistics on a clan mech would be interesting and would stop a lot of arguement about balance.

Everyone seems to have their own opinion over which weapons are easier to use and what does best, we could just allow people to take what they want. It would also remove all forms of excuses for players calling for imbalance, as sides would have exactly the same options.

The only issue would be that it would end up even more similar to quickplay with the tech mixing and lore hounds would get mad even though its not much of a stretch for our pilots, who happen to have their own personal mech stables and engineers able to change loadouts out in 2 minutes or less, to have the option to mix tech.

Alternatively someone will always be mad because balance is never perfect, we're either going to have overquirked IS mechs stompping the clans or clan mechs with extremely good base stats stomping underquirked IS mechs with this big quirk based system.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kin3ticX, on 15 December 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I think the roleplay special snowflake stock mech grognards also dwell in the inner recesses of the Inner Sphere.

Yeah, this is prevalent in some Clan loyalist units as well, but definitely moreso in the Inner Sphere.

[Freeman 52]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 December 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

This problem is getting blown out of proportion. We don't need crazy new tech or massive landslide changes. It's much simpler than that. Remember when IS mechs were actually outperforming Clan mechs? So why not try repealing some of their nerfs? It's very easy to realize this is the best solution. The best Clan mechs don't have quirks, so its not like you can nerf their quirks, and blanket nerfs are a bad, so the solution is simple.... give IS mechs some of their quirks back.

^This. There was a mythical time when CW matches were more or less even. What was it: a year ago? Mythical indeed.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 December 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Not necessarily. You have to consider population demographics as well. I would be willing to bet that a large percentage of the experienced IS player base is more into playing their own lore-type builds, and would scoff at mechlab optimization.

Not to mention, the MAD-IIC just came out. If it were up to me my unit would have gone Clan so I could try FP and level those mechs.

Frankly, if you aren't bringing primarily Warhammers, Grasshoppers, Battlemasters, or Banshees, you really have no right to complain about balance.

With 265 tons you should have either 3x WHR/GHR and 1 SHD/GRF or 1 BLR, 2 WHR/GHR and a CDA.

On hot maps bump the BLR to a MX90 and the CDA to a 35t of choice.

Teams do that. Even mixed teams who are any good. Pugs don't and won't.

THAT is the tech imbalance issue. CXL, faster, more range always work. Always have a benefit no matter player skill. PPFLD, good hitboxes for twisting damage and good weapon synergy/quirks for low burn time are only useful above a certain skill level.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jman5, on 15 December 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

Let's assume this is true and 100% of the reason why Clans win disproportionately over IS. Even if balance is absolutely perfect between clans and IS. If the IS population at large is bringing bad lore builds in Faction play enough to so completely screw up the WLR, it still merits some counter-balancing in FP.

Doing nothing because maybe theoretically there is some balance if you bring a small subset of mechs and have a good team, doesn't help when the situation on the ground is showing 70:30 win ratio across the entire population.

There comes a point where you just have to stop overthinking weapon/mech theorycrafting balance and just say: OK clans are crushing IS, we need to pull some levers until the WLR begins to even out more. If the IS is filled to the brim with dumb loretards, you have to account for that in some way or else FP dies.

Well, they could dial back some of the quirk nerfs and see where that leaves it...

Or just give enough tonnage to bring 2 BLRs and 2 GHR/WHM. 310 tons? That should do it.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 December 2016 - 12:01 PM.

[Novakaine]

Most clanner comments are so disingenuous it's astounding.
"I truely see no disadvantages in my IS mechs."
What pile of unadulterated BS.
However I found my own FW solution..
I'm just gonna stop playing it.
Yup.
And I hope to the high heavens I'm not alone.
Oh and on side balance is a damn myth.
However we can achieve parity.
Because for now the only parity the IS has is with........pears.
See ya'll in Puglandia.

Edited by Novakaine, 15 December 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[Count Zero 74]

There are a few simple reasons for the Clans success. They form something called "groups" and they work as "teams". These are strange and foreign concepts for the average IS puglets. The Clanners guard those secret tricks very well it seems.

[Positive Mental Attitude]

please please please please please let me use IS mechs as a clanner. Ill never be bored again. maybe....

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 December 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Well, they could dial back some of the quirk nerfs and see where that leaves it...

Or just give enough tonnage to bring 2 BLRs and 2 GHR/WHM. 310 tons? That should do it.

PGI knee jerked hard on some of the IS nerfs they put in place, especially when they started adding quirks to clan mechs all of a sudden. I didn't expect any quirks on the Kodiak, Night Gyr, or Linebacker but they got them. They started learning with the Mad IIC though. Maybe they'll repeal the IS nerfs also to bring mechs up a bit more.

Prenerf Mauler seemed good enough to compete with the Kodiak, but then it got taken down, now the Kodiak is also nerfed. If we just bring the Mauler back to its former levels then it'll be on equal footing with a Kodiak and weigh less.

Currently the IS tonnage increase is acting as a bandaid that helps meta running units, but doesn't really help the people who only have a few specific mechs or new players who were told "buy a Hunchback" buffing the IS mechs themselves and possibly adding extra quirks for lore builds would give a good boost to the underperforming part of the IS player population and boost some of the higher rated mechs so they won't need the 15 ton dropdeck tonnage difference.

[CK16]

Novakaine, on 15 December 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Most clanner comments are so disingenuous it's astounding.
"I truely see no disadvantages in my IS mechs."
What pile of unadulterated BS.
However I found my own FW solution..
I'm just gonna stop playing it.
Yup.
And I hope to the high heavens I'm not alone.
Oh and on side balance is a damn myth.
However we can achieve parity.
Because for now the only parity the IS has is with........pears.
See ya'll in Puglandia.

So let me get this straight, you lose a match, blames other kids for having cooler toys, takes ball and goes home?

No really, I hear the same crap from you Spheroids all the time! Where is the omg balance is out of wacky when you were all stopping all but Jade Falcon last FW phase? Where for several months 3/4 Clans could not push out of their starting worlds. Where was Dane then complaining about it in videos? Oh right, he had no issues rolling Ghost Bears up, or issues that majority of Mercs were FRR, nope not a peep about balance then. Where were any of you complaining?! Oh right. It was " git gud clanners stop qq'ing". Yet as soon as you guys start lossing it's the Mechs fault? Whaaaaaaa?

Nothing personal, but this is a common theme with any loyalist here....

Edited by CK16, 15 December 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Graugger]

So just a month ago people were complaining nobody was playing IS in FW and now you're complaining about pugs playing IS in FW... What the blazes!

You can't get it, so obviously PGI should just buff the crap out of clans until a flippin ACH can one shot a bloody Atlas.

CK16, on 15 December 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

So let me get this straight, you lose a match, blames other kids for having cooler toys, takes ball and goes home?

No really, I hear the same crap from you Spheroids all the time! Where is the omg balance is out of wacky when you were all stopping all but Jade Falcon last FW phase? Where for several months 3/4 Clans could not push out of their starting worlds. Where was Dane then complaining about it in videos? Oh right, he had no issues rolling Ghost Bears up, or issues that majority of Mercs were FRR, nope not a peep about balance then. Where were any of you complaining?! Oh right. It was " git gud clanners stop qq'ing". Yet as soon as you guys start lossing it's the Mechs fault? Whaaaaaaa?

Nothing personal, but this is a common theme with any loyalist here....

Ok you oaf, how about the vast majority of the Clan population being Jade Falcon, convenient that you leave that fact out you bloody troll.

[RaptorCWS]

Graugger, on 15 December 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

So just a month ago people were complaining nobody was playing IS in FW and now you're complaining about pugs playing IS in FW... What the blazes!

You can't get it, so obviously PGI should just buff the crap out of clans until a flippin ACH can one shot a bloody Atlas.

no one is complaining about is pugs playing. but IS pugs playing poorly and then blaming tech and not that they lost to a better organized team, and then running to the forums to QQ. most IS pugs are bringing awful builds and trying to lead and organize them is like herding cats. LRMS are not a good choice for faction play. LRM assault mechs are a waste of 85- 100 tons. yet the IS pugs are bringing them, and losing with them. and then blaming the clan teams for bringing meta builds and using coms for something other than insulting their teammates.

Graugger, on 15 December 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok you oaf, how about the vast majority of the Clan population being Jade Falcon, convenient that you leave that fact out you bloody troll.

and the majority of IS was FRR at one time. single bucket makes that irrelevant.

Edited by RaptorCWS, 15 December 2016 - 12:38 PM.