391 replies to this topic

[Count Zero 74]

Redjack d3, on 15 December 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

please please please please please let me use IS mechs as a clanner. Ill never be bored again. maybe....

You wish bro !! Either come IS or keep playing your Clan crap

[LORD ORION]

If average IS players would

1) Use proper builds
2) Stop using XL
3) Stop bringing lights

Things would go better.

As it is, I see IS pilots using many potato builds, people using Xls that get vaporized instantly because they don't know what they are doing in them, and 4th waves composed almost entirely of lights that get shut down by streaks instantly.

A few decent players in the good clan mechs can pwn this crap all day long.

[Joey Tankblaster]

Quote

Stop bringing lights

Because one single weapon system (SSRM-6) is a strong denial weapon for IS lights.

[Mech Nuggets]

Mech The Dane, on 15 December 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

That's understandable.
It's only the solution that I think would work best - that is just my opinion. As long as we can get beyond the stupid back and forth where blame is improperly placed on the pugs or players and instead focus on the tech and the incentives to use that tech we can all hopefully start on the path to repairing the glaring issues with this game mode.

May I propose a different solution. How about there are just two queues. IS vs. IS and Clan vs. Clan no need to mix tech, autobalance. faction allegiance is a farce anyway, so are planets....

[LORD ORION]

Joey Tankblaster, on 15 December 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

Because one single weapon system (SSRM-6) is a strong denial weapon for IS lights.

For an average player, yes.
Stop doing it unless you're good enough to avoid getting streaked...It's pretty much a 20-40 ton penalty on your drop deck when you do it. Add a couple more tons of mech, and streaks blow in the hands of clan pilots who can't win by maneuvering..

[Husker Dude]

I enjoyed watching this video, though I'm trying to articulate in my mind why I'm a little wary drawing conclusions from MRBC/MWOWC comp play to general CW. Both run on the same game engine, for sure, and I do think that the Clan XL durability is the biggest factor in why it's pretty much vital for comp play, but I do think 12 v 12 as opposed to 8 v 8 changes the formula a bit. The 8 v 8 comp format is so far less forgiving, even before you get to re-spawns in CW. It's not to say that there isn't still an advantage, but I do think it's quite a bit less pronounced in full teams of 12.

Additionally, I don't really think that versatility is necessarily a boon when it comes to CW. Everything is pretty heavily tuned to coordinating a specific loadout across the entire team, and the less flexibility available when it comes to mech building, the easier it is to sync up the team. For instance, it's not great if everyone on the team brings a Timber, but there's one guy who is taking SRM/SPL and has to sit around, not contributing, while the rest of his team pokes with LPL/ERML.
The premade build decks you put up on the hub were a great idea for the coordinated hub drops, essentially limiting that possibility; if you're bringing a Grasshopper, you're probably bringing LPL (or maybe ERLL), and if you're in a Griffin, you're SRM brawling. Everybody drops the same type the same wave, and the team is optimized.

[Positive Mental Attitude]

LORD ORION, on 15 December 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

If average IS players would

1) Use proper builds
2) Stop using XL
3) Stop bringing lights

Things would go better.

As it is, I see IS pilots using many potato builds, people using Xls that get vaporized instantly because they don't know what they are doing in them, and 4th waves composed almost entirely of lights that get shut down by streaks instantly.

A few decent players in the good clan mechs can pwn this crap all day long.

Spoken like a true loyalist clanner.

Xl is required for many IS mech builds, twisting also is required but not at all understood sadly.

[MischiefSC]

Except the population all moved to Clans, starting with a trickle in FW 1 until it was a flood in FW 3 because of tech imbalance.

We overcame that with coordination in teams. Then people started to realize that you can have better coordination and tactics PLUS the better tech! Why not have both, right? So they went to Clans.

Then there wasn't enough units to carry the pugs who played IS and didn't want to play in teams. WNW, we did a lot to onboard new IS players into teams. It's why the largest loyalist teams were almost all IS (especially Davion), we had multiple units with hundreds of active/semi-active players.

However over 2 years (with about 6 weeks of Stalkers being OP as a break) of being on the down side of tech balance most either quit or went Clans.

The problem right now is that we've about bled out. The tech balance is one that works no matter player skill, while the things IS does have to leverage requires skill to employ and coordination.

Point being you can derp as a pug in Clans and still always survive ST loss, do damage at longer ranges and most your team has ECM cover, also you'll all stick together because you move at the same speed.

I get that people want their Clan mechs to be better than IS. Winning because you're actually better and not because the game is slanted to favor you is HARD. You want to feel your Clan tech is special (better).

We need to move past that or accept this is the future. IS is for newbies who can't afford Clan mechs and diehards who don't mind always losing.

Redjack d3, on 15 December 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Spoken like a true loyalist clanner.

Xl is required for many IS mech builds, twisting also is required but not at all understood sadly.

I see bad Clan builds all day. However they are still fast, do damage at good range and survive ST loss anyway.

Huh.

[feeWAIVER]

LORD ORION, on 15 December 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

If average IS players would

1) Use proper builds
2) Stop using XL
3) Stop bringing lights

Things would go better.

As it is, I see IS pilots using many potato builds, people using Xls that get vaporized instantly because they don't know what they are doing in them, and 4th waves composed almost entirely of lights that get shut down by streaks instantly.

A few decent players in the good clan mechs can pwn this crap all day long.

Basically Clan XL and Light have a lower skill ceiling, and therein lays the balance discussion.

[RaptorCWS]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

We need to move past that or accept this is the future. IS is for newbies who can't afford Clan mechs and diehards who don't mind always losing.

you can afford a clan mech after doing the tutorial and the cbill boosted matches when you start playing.. not being patient and saveing is an individual problem not a game problem

[LORD ORION]

Redjack d3, on 15 December 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Spoken like a true loyalist clanner.

Xl is required for many IS mech builds, twisting also is required but not at all understood sadly.

Pssht... this debate if years old now, and it is obvious to the good players that the tipping points of balance are easily reached.
265 ton drop deck is probably past the tipping point for IS decks, and you'll see unstoppable overruns as soon as the good mercs switch over to IS on the next contract rotation.

[TWIAFU]

CK16, on 15 December 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

I am just sitting here very concerned that enough IS loyalist are going to cry hard enough and a balance pass will happen with massive knee jerks to IS buffs and nerf hammers to clans and then we end up where clans get rolled back....keep in mind when 3/4 Clans could nt push out start of last FW, remember Ghost Bear FRR fought over a single planet for weeks!?

Where was the IS boys then complaining about balance? I understand no one wants to be face rolled...but then again watch your knee jerk and blaming the tech....PGI has yet to really address the issue of Mercs having complete freedom on where to fight and not where they might be needed instead?

Also to all you FRR warriors watching your planets get conquered, do not forget your destiny and ours (Clan Ghost Bear) is heading for the same path

I suggest a test that all of us in CW must participate in to get actual perspective on BOTH points of view.

Walk a mile in a man's shoes and all that....

All Clans must use IS mechs for two weeks and IS must use Clan. Beyond the very obvious 'issues' with such a suggestion I think it would do everyone some good to have some actual experience in how the 'other side' feels in our current state.

[LORD ORION]

feeWAIVER, on 15 December 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

Basically Clan XL and Light have a lower skill ceiling, and therein lays the balance discussion.

Not even.
There are so many bad clan mechs, and it is really easy to F up in a clan mech and lose bad because you can't slug it out with IS mechs.

More like
IS XL mechs have very high skill ceilings.
IS light mechs (hard) are threatened by streak boats (easy), so there is a large skill ceiling imbalance there.
IS mechs require some coordination to play to their strengths (if you have the awareness of a potato you are going to die)

I've been on a few stomps today where the clan pugs are bad, and just stand around waiting to get rolled by IS heavies.

[feeWAIVER]

LORD ORION, on 15 December 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

Not even.
There are so many bad clan mechs, and it is really easy to F up in a clan mech and lose bad because you can't slug it out with IS mechs.

More like
IS XL mechs have very high skill ceilings.
IS light mechs (hard) are threatened by streak boats (easy), so there is a large skill ceiling imbalance there.
IS mechs require some coordination to play to their strengths (if you have the awareness of a potato you are going to die)

I've been on a few stomps today where the clan pugs are bad, and just stand around waiting to get rolled by IS heavies.

You basically disagreed with me, then reiterated my point.
I'm in one of the top FP units. Currently in MJ12, previously in 228.
I win my games, either side... but take it from me, Clan is much much easier.. straight up EZmode.

And it's reflected by the galaxy map, as it has been for the past year that I've been playing.

[MischiefSC]

RaptorCWS, on 15 December 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

you can afford a clan mech after doing the tutorial and the cbill boosted matches when you start playing.. not being patient and saveing is an individual problem not a game problem

Anything that creates a negative in game experience, like imbalance in new players, is a game problem.

Yes, I'm sure you like having the game balanced in the favor of what you play. Just doesn't work long term.

[AphexTwin11]

https://mwomercs.com...to-grow-a-pair/

OP in this thread basically addresses the IS QQ balance issues

[justcallme A S H]

Jman5, on 15 December 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

It's open to interpretation why. Is it easier to fail in the mechlab for an IS mech? Is it mech/tech imbalance? Are there simply more bad IS mechs in the game than Clans?

Omnipods + IS Quirks. Lots of IS load outs, for whatever reason for newer players, they are not building to the quirks a lot of the time. And Omnipods, means one mech - any build really.

Also the fact that the IS trial mechs - XL Zeus Brawler & Crab... I mean really. How they were good trial suggestions for new players I have no idea.

Not that trial mech decks are bad, I use them for a laugh (both sides) and do well. But it's a massive skill gap to keep a IS XL Assault alive.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 15 December 2016 - 01:57 PM.

[RaptorCWS]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Anything that creates a negative in game experience, like imbalance in new players, is a game problem.

Yes, I'm sure you like having the game balanced in the favor of what you play. Just doesn't work long term.

me saving the tutorial money and noob increased money for the first few matches to buy a mad dog (which has never been the ideal mech to run with my units strats so i dont) is not imbalance. though you keep bringing up that noobs are being drawn to IS because the mechs cost less upfront which is their choice. doing things like jumping into an atlas and loading it up with lrms is what is hurtig IS players. the thing is built to brawl not hide in the back and launch lrms from outside their max range. there needs to be a build and basic FP start guide presented to new players interested in the game mode. coordination is another thing hurting the IS Noobs. they like to funnel in the gates and die. and they come back and do it again and again and again. it doesnt matter if the IS Units win when the pugs throw it away faster.

[MischiefSC]

RaptorCWS, on 15 December 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

me saving the tutorial money and noob increased money for the first few matches to buy a mad dog (which has never been the ideal mech to run with my units strats so i dont) is not imbalance. though you keep bringing up that noobs are being drawn to IS because the mechs cost less upfront which is their choice. doing things like jumping into an atlas and loading it up with lrms is what is hurtig IS players. the thing is built to brawl not hide in the back and launch lrms from outside their max range. there needs to be a build and basic FP start guide presented to new players interested in the game mode. coordination is another thing hurting the IS Noobs. they like to funnel in the gates and die. and they come back and do it again and again and again. it doesnt matter if the IS Units win when the pugs throw it away faster.

Except that if Clan tech is better (especially for noobs) it does matter.

[Michael Abt]

I've been playing online games for almost 20y, different games, all with their own imbalances. While the players are different, the player types are the same, and so are their arguments.

The simple truth of imbalance is that it is a vicious cycle. If it isn't fixed players gravitate to the easier side, which leads to other players leaving in disgust, until the game implodes. Each iteration, each failed attempt to fix it only leads to a faster collaps. That is what you will see with 4.1 unless some radical, drastic changes are being made.

Edited by Michael Abt, 15 December 2016 - 02:51 PM.