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Inner Sphere/clan Imbalance Is Real And It Is A Problem


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#261 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 08:01 PM

View PostVxheous Kerensky, on 16 December 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:


Laser vomit trading is one thing, and you're totally right. PPFLD trading is a whole different issue. Dual Gauss/Dual ERPPC Kodiaks can still out-trade you at 800m (not that it should be as much a problem now at 240 ton dropdecks). Jump sniping Night Gyr, Timbers and Hunchbacks can trade evenly at 800m (but that is a testament to jump sniping skill). Even Ebons can mount 2 ERPPC and a Gauss into high mounts and hill hump trade. IS lacks viable PPFLD jump capable mechs, as Taragato pointed out.


You're right of course but the teams that build is supposed to counter ( I think you know who I'm talking about) run the Laser Ebon meta. Never saw them bring a Gauss Kodiak. But there are more and more PPCs lately which is a total different story. In a PCC duell tech don't matter only skill decides, u have to hit after all.

p.s. IS has jump snipy mechs, for example u ever tried jumpsniping in a double PPC BJ3? Try it man :)

Edited by Count Zero 74, 16 December 2016 - 08:02 PM.


#262 DANKnuggz

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 08:01 PM

PGI insists on keeping IS tech at pre-Tukayyid ceasefire level.... the clans are SUPPOSED to have the better tech at the point in the timeline this game exists.... advance the timeline to POST ceasefire and the tech difference is decreased dramatically... "Balance" is a pipe dream in a game like this where so much is left up to player skill and knowledge... you'd have to essentially make all mechs of even tonnage nothing more than carbon copies of each other and then what would be the point of owning multiple mechs of the same tonnage when one 75 tonner will do just as well as another??

@Dane, your raw leaderboard data was good but the survey poll was scientifically speaking pure garbage... The survey is nothing more than opinion and 300+ people is far too small a number to draw any conclusions from. I'd be more inclined to trust the survey data if voters stated their preferred faction, IS or Clan, and the sample size was MUCH larger. I've spoken with EVIL about their preference (as they top the merc leaderboard I trust their opinion when it comes to the best mechs to use) and they've told me the IS is easier for them... Although this flies directly in the face of the raw numbers, I'm more inclined to believe the word of those with the most experience and skill with the tools in question... who knows though... maybe they lied to me right? This being said there are surely some underperforming IS chassis that could use some buffing.

#263 Dex Spero

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 08:38 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 16 December 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:


Yes. With original broken tech when Clans first came out.

Pugs, Clans won handily.

Teams, IS crushed Clans because focus fire > tech advantage.

If we tried to do 10 v 12 we'd have to *buff* the Clans above TT levels and it'd still be borked because FPS /= turn based strategy game.

Thank you Mischief! I guess its just another example of the same flaw we are all circling around: what balances the game at one skill level rarely balances the game at all skill levels.

#264 Vxheous

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 08:59 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:


You're right of course but the teams that build is supposed to counter ( I think you know who I'm talking about) run the Laser Ebon meta. Never saw them bring a Gauss Kodiak. But there are more and more PPCs lately which is a total different story. In a PCC duell tech don't matter only skill decides, u have to hit after all.

p.s. IS has jump snipy mechs, for example u ever tried jumpsniping in a double PPC BJ3? Try it man Posted Image


I have two ERPPC BJ3 jump snipers, and they work great, 972m range. What I lack is a suitable IS heavy to do it with, if it came to that.

#265 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:03 PM

View PostVxheous Kerensky, on 16 December 2016 - 08:59 PM, said:


I have two ERPPC BJ3 jump snipers, and they work great, 972m range. What I lack is a suitable IS heavy to do it with, if it came to that.


The Chassis are there but not the necessary quirks yet. But with the new skill tree? Imagine putting some PPC quirks on a Jester or a Quickdraw 5K, jumpsnipe away my friend.

IS heavy Jumpsniping is a 3 LPL Grasshopper 5P right now. Try it, it's awesome.

You coud try a Quickdraw 4G, 2 high energy mounts in the RT. No PPC quirks but 20% Energy Cooldown and 5% Energy Heat. And that thing can fly.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 16 December 2016 - 09:09 PM.


#266 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:19 PM

Scratch that, try this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89e0d4b5c1e1c91

10% heat and cooldown, but most important +35% Torso turn rate(Yaw), that thing twists like a beast so u can shield with your left side.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 16 December 2016 - 09:20 PM.


#267 Monkey Lover

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:27 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 09:19 PM, said:

Scratch that, try this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89e0d4b5c1e1c91

10% heat and cooldown, but most important +35% Torso turn rate(Yaw), that thing twists like a beast so u can shield with your left side.



Funny how the pos summoner now is better with same 35% i believe and starts off with 100 on the turn over the quickdraw 90.haha Not counting all the other ppc and energy quirks +quirks from target computer

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...61de17f0c45fff5

The last time we had a ppc mech as good as the summoner was back in the super quirked tbolt 9s days :)

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 December 2016 - 09:33 PM.


#268 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:38 PM

Summoner has 70 tons so you'd have 170 tons left for 3 mechs, it would the main heavy in your deck.

Quickdraw is 60 tons so you have 205 tons left for 3 mechs, that Quickdraw would be just an addon after the Battlemaster and the Warhammer u drop first. Want to talk about balance again?

muahahahahahahahahaha......sry

#269 Monkey Lover

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:46 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

Summoner has 70 tons so you'd have 170 tons left for 3 mechs, it would the main heavy in your deck.

Quickdraw is 60 tons so you have 205 tons left for 3 mechs, that Quickdraw would be just an addon after the Battlemaster and the Warhammer u drop first. Want to talk about balance again?

muahahahahahahahahaha......sry


I don't care about the drop decks im not playing cw anymore anyway. Atleast not until we get IS v IS events. In the group Q I would take the summoner Posted Image In an IS event i wouldn't take ppc its a waste.

My point is the summoner is twice the mech almost any IS ppc boat is. Not long ago it was junk

Edited by Monkey Lover, 16 December 2016 - 09:48 PM.


#270 Tarogato

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:06 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 06:25 PM, said:


Ok my turn now, that sounds like some typical QP BS to me. Lets do some some match shall we?

So your standard FP meta-Ebon runs 2 LPL + 4 Mediums. Medium Lasers have a max range of 688m. So at 700m all the Ebon can trade with are his 2LPL with a burntime of 1.21 seconds. With me so far?

Now I counter that with a Grasshopper 5P with 5 Large Lasers with a max range of 1080m and a burntime of 0.85 seconds, wanna trade?

So yeah at 400-600 meters, when the Clanner can use his Meds he will outtrade you ( but the burntime will still hurt him) but at 700m+? No way. And btw, have u noticed they capped the LPL 850? Cause a lot of people here seem to be living in the past. So if you have the chance to get close as IS go for it but the point is if you play smart and use your brain (and are able to hit a barndoor from inside, which seems to be the real problem imo) IS can outtrade Clan at long ranges.

You know sitting at home and comparing numbers and ranges and dps and crunching numbers is one thing, but out there in a moving mech trying to hit a moving target while getting shot at is another. And from my experience the only thing that really matters out there is burntime,burntime,burntime.


This is what it actually looks like:

Posted Image

Posted Image



^^^ This is why 82% of my matches are played in Clan mechs.

#271 Vxheous

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:09 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 16 December 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:


I don't care about the drop decks im not playing cw anymore anyway. Atleast not until we get IS v IS events. In the group Q I would take the summoner Posted Image In an IS event i wouldn't take ppc its a waste.

My point is the summoner is twice the mech almost any IS ppc boat is. Not long ago it was junk


paywalled high mounts for the Summoner would do that. I jump sniped with the Summoner's low arm, and the quirks made sense for it since you had to expose so much of your mech to get the shot off...now not to much.

#272 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:25 PM

View PostTarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

This is what it actually looks like:

Posted Image

Posted Image



^^^ This is why 82% of my matches are played in Clan mechs.


See this is what it looks like on paper, has nothing to do with reality even though it shows that IS would win at 650+.

The point is both mechs peak and fire their alpha at the same time. Both mechs hit. The Hopper is done after 0.85 sec and starts moving/twisting while the the Clan LPL still has half a sec to go. You can play around with theoretical dmg numbers as much as u want but it means nothing if you can't bring that dmg on target. Just cause something is better on paper doesn't mean its better in reality. Simple fact of life. Oh wait, the Clanner wasn't even better on paper, sry my mistake.

#273 FallingAce

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:30 PM

View PostDANKnuggz, on 16 December 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

I've spoken with EVIL about their preference (as they top the merc leaderboard I trust their opinion when it comes to the best mechs to use) and they've told me the IS is easier for them... Although this flies directly in the face of the raw numbers, I'm more inclined to believe the word of those with the most experience and skill with the tools in question... who knows though... maybe they lied to me right? This being said there are surely some underperforming IS chassis that could use some buffing.


I'm not saying they lied to you, but...
Posted Image

Even a politician can't stretch the truth that far, except for maybe Baghdad Bob.

#274 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:32 PM

Cause Evil has seperate units for each faction (EV5l, KMDD) aso, to switch factions they leave one unit and join one of the others. EVIL itself always is Jade Falcon.

And Dan is right, I have beaten EVIL when they where Clan but never when they where IS. U don't want to play against these guys in IS mechs.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 16 December 2016 - 10:33 PM.


#275 Count Zero 74

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:37 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 16 December 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:


I don't care about the drop decks im not playing cw anymore anyway. Atleast not until we get IS v IS events. In the group Q I would take the summoner Posted Image In an IS event i wouldn't take ppc its a waste.

My point is the summoner is twice the mech almost any IS ppc boat is. Not long ago it was junk


And right there is the biggest peoblem, half the people in here don't even play FP but know all about whats wrong with it.

#276 Monkey Lover

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:43 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:


And right there is the biggest peoblem, half the people in here don't even play FP but know all about whats wrong with it.

Im here for a balance topic. I have give up on FP once it screwed loyalist and went to 1 bucket. I give it a shot played for good 20 hours on 4.1 and it was what i expected.

Balance on IS and clans has been screwed for a long time . I just didnt have to deal with it being marik and didn't fight clans pre 4.1

#277 Starbomber109

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:51 PM

There is no lore reason not to let IS pilots used captured clan tech...like ER med lasers, or Clan gauss rifles, or Timberwolves. Then we can also balance out the drop decks and put everyone back on 240 tons or whatever.

#278 Tarogato

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 11:06 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:


See this is what it looks like on paper, has nothing to do with reality even though it shows that IS would win at 650+.

The point is both mechs peak and fire their alpha at the same time. Both mechs hit. The Hopper is done after 0.85 sec and starts moving/twisting while the the Clan LPL still has half a sec to go. You can play around with theoretical dmg numbers as much as u want but it means nothing if you can't bring that dmg on target. Just cause something is better on paper doesn't mean its better in reality. Simple fact of life. Oh wait, the Clanner wasn't even better on paper, sry my mistake.


I love how you're still living in the old clan laservomit meta from one year ago. So you're not playing the present clan meta yet you still complain that the IS is winning? (ps, it's not, and look for actual data to support your argument, something that goes beyond just a few anecdotal testimonies)



You're also missing the part where the 5x LL build must dodge ghost heat to be sustainable. That's a 1.0 second burn duration, plus a 0.5 second delay to dodge ghost heat, plus human error, which is probably between 0.05 and 0.15 seconds.

So firing 5x LL as innersphere is a total burn duration of between 1.50 seconds and 1.65 seconds, depending on how good your timing is. Plus there's a little bit of human error after the burn finishes before the pilot twists the mech away or makes some other evasive action.

While clan laservomit (and gaussvomit) is at most a 1.12 second burn, every time, and clan PPFLD is instantaneous, the only limit is the pilot and peek profile, which is why those weapons have been the meta ever since clan laservomit started getting range nerfs.


But let me entertain your concerns with the numbers themselves. Let's assume the 5LL innersphere mech alpha's all five together, because it can and sometimes does. Burn duration of 1.0. Let's account for only how much damage the clan builds can do in 1.0 seconds, and let's also give the IS a 10% range quirk.

Posted Image




And if the Clan laservomit player gets in his 1.12s burn before evading? Looks what happens to the IS player with 5LL, who is avoiding ghost heat (adding 0.5s to his trades), but still at least gets his 10% range quirk. The IS player only gets 72% of his damage on target:

Posted Image


The IS player gets kinda slaughtered, all the way out until it reaches parity at around 620 meters, which is outside of everybody's optimum ranges (except the clan PPFLD player, who's still truckin' full bore.)

#279 FallingAce

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 11:11 PM

View PostCount Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

Cause Evil has seperate units for each faction (EV5l, KMDD) aso, to switch factions they leave one unit and join one of the others. EVIL itself always is Jade Falcon.

And Dan is right, I have beaten EVIL when they where Clan but never when they where IS. U don't want to play against these guys in IS mechs.


Are those units on top of the leaderboard?

#280 Fuerchtenichts

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 11:20 PM

View PostTarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

^^^ This is why 82% of my matches are played in Clan mechs.



Obviously the Clan Mechs fit your personal style of playing better than IS Mechs. This doesn't mean there is no way to be successfull with IS tech.
The FP Drop Deck tonnage limitations makes you to choose the "best 4 Mechs" not 4 x "the best Mech" for your FP tactic.
MRBC works totally different which affects the Meta. There you have to beat your opponent under totally different circumstances (team of 8, no re-droping, higher complexity to choose the right tactic per map) .

Finally, I think that Danes proposal to let the player decide which Mechs to play in FP is a good idea to end useless discussions on comparing one IS Mech to one Clan Mech in a limited scope (ALPHA, DPS, damage in first 10 sec., speed, agility, armour, preferred fighting range, etc., etc.). I have never seen a real complete comparison on all related parameters in this forum, due to its complexity.
Its important to rule out the "feeling" to be limited on disadvantaged tech no matter whether you play IS or Clan. This only leads to defensive and negative discussions.





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