391 replies to this topic

[Count Zero 74]

Tarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

I love how you're still living in the old clan laservomit meta from one year ago. So you're not playing the present clan meta yet you still complain that the IS is winning? (ps, it's not, and look for actual data to support your argument, something that goes beyond just a few anecdotal testimonies)



You're also missing the part where the 5x LL build must dodge ghost heat to be sustainable. That's a 1.0 second burn duration, plus a 0.5 second delay to dodge ghost heat, plus human error, which is probably between 0.05 and 0.15 seconds.

So firing 5x LL as innersphere is a total burn duration of between 1.50 seconds and 1.65 seconds, depending on how good your timing is. Plus there's a little bit of human error after the burn finishes before the pilot twists the mech away or makes some other evasive action.

While clan laservomit (and gaussvomit) is at most a 1.12 second burn, every time, and clan PPFLD is instantaneous, the only limit is the pilot and peek profile, which is why those weapons have been the meta ever since clan laservomit started getting range nerfs.


But let me entertain your concerns with the numbers themselves. Let's assume the 5LL innersphere mech alpha's all five together, because it can and sometimes does. Burn duration of 1.0. Let's account for only how much damage the clan builds can do in 1.0 seconds, and let's also give the IS a 10% range quirk.






And if the Clan laservomit player gets in his 1.12s burn before evading? Looks what happens to the IS player with 5LL, who is avoiding ghost heat (adding 0.5s to his trades), but still at least gets his 10% range quirk. The IS player only gets 72% of his damage on target:




The IS player gets kinda slaughtered, all the way out until it reaches parity at around 620 meters, which is outside of everybody's optimum ranges (except the clan PPFLD player, who's still truckin' full bore.)

1st of I'm not playing the old Clan Laser meta because I play Inner Sphere. Don't be fooled by the smoke jag tag, I'll be back IS in an hour or so. And what you call the old laser vomit from a year ago is the meta that the best FP team out there runs. And they are the main enemy of me and my team, We play against them several times every day. The builds that Vxheous and I here discussing are builds to counter that neta cause it currently dominates FP. Same as the QP tactics of the IS puggies don't work in FP the same your QP meta BS doesn't work in FP.

And btw, on the 5P the burntime is 0.85 sec not 1, 15% duration quirk remeber you noob.

Edited by Count Zero 74, 16 December 2016 - 11:24 PM.

[Count Zero 74]

FallingAce, on 16 December 2016 - 11:11 PM, said:

Are those units on top of the leaderboard?

How about u take a look at Promos IS/Clan kills, pretty even I'd say.

[MischiefSC]

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

See this is what it looks like on paper, has nothing to do with reality even though it shows that IS would win at 650+.

The point is both mechs peak and fire their alpha at the same time. Both mechs hit. The Hopper is done after 0.85 sec and starts moving/twisting while the the Clan LPL still has half a sec to go. You can play around with theoretical dmg numbers as much as u want but it means nothing if you can't bring that dmg on target. Just cause something is better on paper doesn't mean its better in reality. Simple fact of life. Oh wait, the Clanner wasn't even better on paper, sry my mistake.

Except you keep habitually making the exact same mistake -

Everyone has said, repeatedly, that for experienced and high performing players the difference is pretty close. Decisions on positioning and how the drop is called will consistently carry the weight to overcome that difference.

However for the other 95% of the playerbase it's significant enough to win or lose matches. Also, while we all know you don't care who wins or loses most people do. They want to see their 'side' winning at the end of the day for their hard work. Hence the difference between FW as more than just QP with new maps/modes. Winning the dots is winning - just like moving your name on the leaderboard is winning or getting pretend robbit monies is winning.

That is why the units have all moved to Clans and why a tonnage change won't shift that any and fixing balance issues will. Same reason that IS never wins scouting. Last thing I'm worried about in scouting is a Skillcrow but for terribad vs terribad it's a critical advantage. One side has to aim, the other doesn't. When neither side really can aim that's win/loss right there.

Edited by MischiefSC, 16 December 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Tarogato]

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

And btw, on the 5P the burntime is 0.85 sec not 1, 15% duration quirk remeber you noob.

GHR-5H doesn't have a duration quirk. WHM-6D doesn't have one. The WHM-7S does, but almost nobody brings it. Jester has 10%, not 15%, but it's quite rare because it's a hero. BLR-2C doesn't have one. The QKD-5K which is common, but only 4x LL... doesn't have one. Rifleman doesn't have one.

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

1st of I'm not playing the old Clan Laser meta because I play Inner Sphere. Don't be fooled by the smoke jag tag, I'll be back IS in an hour or so. And what you call the old laser vomit from a year ago is the meta that the best FP team out there runs. And they are the main enemy of me and my team, We play against them several times every day.

I know you're an Innersphere player, which is why I'm so perplexed that you think IS is easier/better.


Also, your favourite best FP teams are only mid-level teams in the grand scheme of things. All of the actual good units left FP a long time ago when they decided FP wasn't competitive enough for them. They play MRBC instead.

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

The builds that Vxheous and I here discussing are builds to counter that neta cause it currently dominates FP. Same as the QP tactics of the IS puggies don't work in FP the same your QP meta BS doesn't work in FP.

Four of the five FP stages are played on QP maps. The fact that you have respawns and 4-mech dropdecks doesn't change the engagement ranges on those maps. You're still playing the same mechs on the same maps. The only time it's different now is when you make it to Stage 5 and play on the Invasion bottleneck maps, and that only occurs once one side has dominated strongly enough to threaten taking the planet. And the side that has consistently pushed into Stage 5 and taken planets again and again... is Clan. So we're back to where this thread started. Clan has better players, therefore Clan is rolling IS. And the reason Clan has better players is because better players are attracted to Clan, and one of the major contributing factors to that tendency is tech imbalance.

[Tarogato]

Fuerchtenichts, on 16 December 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

Obviously the Clan Mechs fit your personal style of playing better than IS Mechs. This doesn't mean there is no way to be successfull with IS tech.
The FP Drop Deck tonnage limitations makes you to choose the "best 4 Mechs" not 4 x "the best Mech" for your FP tactic.
MRBC works totally different which affects the Meta. There you have to beat your opponent under totally different circumstances (team of 8, no re-droping, higher complexity to choose the right tactic per map) .

Finally, I think that Danes proposal to let the player decide which Mechs to play in FP is a good idea to end useless discussions on comparing one IS Mech to one Clan Mech in a limited scope (ALPHA, DPS, damage in first 10 sec., speed, agility, armour, preferred fighting range, etc., etc.). I have never seen a real complete comparison on all related parameters in this forum, due to its complexity.
Its important to rule out the "feeling" to be limited on disadvantaged tech no matter whether you play IS or Clan. This only leads to defensive and negative discussions.

Yeah, to be honest, I'm f''''n' tired of arguing it. I'd rather not completely give up on campaigning for proper balance, but at this point I'm done I guess.

Just merge them. Let IS play Clan mechs. Let both sides be absolutely the same. Then see what happens. My prediction is that we'll see a lot more Clan mechs on the IS side than we'll see IS mechs on the Clan side. CW will literally become Clan Wars with some IS mechs sprinkled in by IS lore fanatics. That is... if the idea of having the IS fighting using Clan mechs doesn't already drive away all of the people who wanted to play IS mechs in the first place.

(unless PGI nerfs Clan/buffs IS at the same time as making this change, making IS stronger again, thus completely defeating the purpose. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's exactly what ends up happening.)

Edited by Tarogato, 17 December 2016 - 12:16 AM.

[iliketurtles87]

Tarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

First of all, PPFLD stands for "pinpoint front-loaded damage". It describes weapons that deal their damage all at once, instantaneously, and also do so without any spread. Lasers are not front-loaded, and missiles are not pinpoint. So this leaves gauss, PPCs, and Innersphere dakka (but not Clan dakka).

Consider that a HBK-IIC-A can jump upward, just barely crest a ridge, and fire off two cERPPCs dealing 20 PPFLD (+10 splash) before instantly dropping back down behind the ridge. Timber can do it for 35 damage using a cGauss and two cERPPCs and the Night Gyr can do it with two cGauss and a cERPPC for 40 damage.

The Innersphere have the BJ-3, which only deals 20 damage and doesn't have splash. The WHM-6R, which actually has UAC5s, which isn't very front-loaded, more like dakka, and it can't jump. There's the TBT-7K that can mount two PPC and AC5... which is 25 damage and no spash bonus. Shadowhawk for 20 alpha damage. The Cataphract which can do two PPC AC10, for 30 damage, but it's a barn door for hitboxes and slow as balls. The CPLT-K2 can two 2PPC 2AC5, but no jumpjets and only 30 alpha. The Victor can jump and move moderately quick, but only carries 2PPC AC10, no splash bonus, and it's still a Victor. Pretty much ditto for the Highlander... except it's slow as balls. You can do 2ERPPC gauss on the Battlemaster, but nobody does. No jumpjets.


Also, IS mechs can not boast 50+ alphas at 500m.

Innersphere: (some builds necessitate dodging ghost heat, so I've account for this by adding 0.5s to the burn duration)

- 45 damage @500m in 1.5 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1c5c9f4a2389ee (used frequently)
- 55 damage @500m in 1.5 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...598f14c902cf53b (doesn't get used anymore)
- 36 damage @500m in 1.0 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...29d7704daabf489 (used fairly often)
- 36 damage @500m in 1.0 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2f7cd588ea4f0bc (used as tonnage filler)
- 33 damage @400m in 0.67 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...92e701c95ac1bdb (or 63 damage @300m)
- 33 damage @400m in 0.67 seconds: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...21b4322bd3caec9 (or 53 damage @300m)
- 33 damage @400m in 0.67 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...222c062d309f434 (or 51 damage at 250m)


Clan: (for PPFLD builds, the time in seconds accounts for the velocity at maximum optimal range. The time to deal damage is of course faster at shorter ranges.)

- 35 PPFLD @700m in 0.54 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e00bc74cf511372 (45 including splash)
- 50 PPFLD @700m in 0.49 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bdc300018beb374 (60 including splash)
- 54 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5c25de88457e94c
- 68 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...620ce3d65f12bc2
- 47 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5496c54ab4abf1b (with ECM)
- 61 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...72a82de38dfbb48
- 68 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f5221264847f7f3



So you see, for the Innersphere to deal 50+ damage at 500m (which is a rather typical and common engagement range), they have to either have a burn duration akin to cERLL, or they have to eat massive ghost heat. Generally, the Innersphere alphas at 500m are 36 damage, 45 at most. And that's while eating ghost heat. Alphas that don't have heat penalties only deal their full damage out to about 300m (the range of the IS medium lasers with a module), and the typical complement of three LPL only reaches out to 400m on average and deals 33 damage.

So of course if you're trying to trade with the Innersphere inside 500m, you're going to get zapped by the insanely short burn durations. But if you can plant clan lasers alphas at 500m or even further out, you will out trade them. Plus, clan PPFLD alphas can tried pretty well with IS even right up to the IS optimal range, because while the burn duration is short, it will still spread damage on a clan poptart that is moving laterally while poptarting and twisting after shooting and dealing pinpoint front-loaded damage.

Thanks for your awesome work and charts. This build is absolutely terrifying : 68 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f5221264847f7f3
I wonder why clan only players always say their mechs run hotter than IS (loooool).
PS: im switching to clans in 3 days

[Mordin Ashe]

When I play matches that are full of pugs and generally clueless people the battles are very equal (=terrible on both sides). No side has any advantage, equal as can be.
Most matches have some Clan party leading the whole thing, meaning IS puggies are still terrible while Clanners get some extra backbone to support their pushes and firing lines. The same is going on when tables are turned but then again when does IS have more parties than Clans do?
Rarely I see a match where both Clanners and IS folks have parties and then matches are equal again.

My experience is telling me that ammount of grouped players decides the whole thing. The fact that more skilled players do more group play doesn't help to soften the IS butthurt.

Anyway, in like one or two months I am moving to FRR so I will finally see what this thing is all about. One thing I already know beforehand is that only about half of Mechs IS is bringing to battles are what I would consider anywhere close to FW-viable.

[SmokeGuar]

Balance must be made based on 95% of population that does not normally play FW.
Players that do not normally play FW say so.

Marvelous.

PGI really should have resetted contracts, like happened at start of Phase 3 and let mercs choose their sides at start. All this is now skewing balance until normal merc cycle takes place.

Question is: will PGI act equally fast to balance dropdeck weights and will there be even more mech and weapon balance changes.

[meteorol]

Tarogato, on 16 December 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

Also, your favourite best FP teams are only mid-level teams in the grand scheme of things. All of the actual good units left FP a long time ago when they decided FP wasn't competitive enough for them. They play MRBC instead.

But but but... in the message i got from pgi when pressing the CW button it said CW is a highly competitive game mode...

You mean i was living a lie all the time? Thinking i would play against the best of the best this game has to offer? Who sharpen their skills with highly competitive things like... dunno, rolling over pugs for most of the time i guess? And you want to tell me this doesn't make them top tier units?

Damn. I feel more lied to than with 3PV. Preoder canceled, wallet closed. Guess now i'll have to consult the SWOL power ranking to find out who the true top tier units are.

[nehebkau]

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

See this is what it looks like on paper, has nothing to do with reality even though it shows that IS would win at 650+.

Isn't this the "Moving the Goalpost / special pleading" logical fallacy? "Its different than on paper".... I believe that you don't understand that math is the one only governing law of computers.

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

And btw, on the 5P the burntime is 0.85 sec not 1, 15% duration quirk remeber you noob.

And that would be the argumentum ad hominem logical fallacy -- way to go!

Count Zero 74, on 16 December 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

And Dan is right, I have beaten EVIL when they where Clan but never when they where IS. U don't want to play against these guys in IS mechs.

And another wonderful example ... this is the Ancedotal logical falacy.



The ONLY thing we can use to determine who is right are the numbers. Who plays what and who wins what as per the leaderboards, PGI statistics and population. And the actual numbers don't lie -- regardless of how much you want to Trumpify them.

iliketurtles87, on 17 December 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

Thanks for your awesome work and charts. This build is absolutely terrifying : 68 damage @450m in 1.12 seconds http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f5221264847f7f3
I wonder why clan only players always say their mechs run hotter than IS (loooool).
PS: im switching to clans in 3 days

<< Tech envy>>>

... but I am done talking about this -- it has turned from a discussion to a Trump rally. All I can add as a final word is that I am close to walking away (from 150 mechs 170 mechbays etc) and IF I am about ready to depart because PGI seems to be unable to keep it together for more than a quarter -- I imagine that there are probably more vested players like me who are thinking the same thing.

Edited by nehebkau, 17 December 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[Bradigus]

And all the while you people are complaining about your perceived imbalances here, IS groups are trouncing clan pugs just as hard as clan groups trounce IS pugs. Group versus group comes down to who is more organized and has better players. There are and have always been more IS players. Which lead and still leads to more pugs facing clans organization. Which results in more steamroll victories for clans. It is the same as every new iteration of CW, general event with rewards from CW or Tukayyid. Even during the 2nd Tukayyid event, IS outnumbered clan players slightly more than 2 to 1, and that was with a large number of these top units going clans for faster queues.

As for the XL engine vulnerability drawback... consider building your mechs with STD engines in mind. There are plenty of Inner Sphere variants that make great use of them while still providing enough firepower to seriously damage and kill clan mechs in shot trades.

Edited by Bradigus, 17 December 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[Bud Crue]

The mental masturbation over the last few days regarding "balance" has been really eye opening. Orwell would be impressed.

Anyway, since reality is meaningless to many of you, so too I expect is anyone else's opinion. With that in mind, all we can do is wait for PGI to do whatever it is that PGI is going to do in this regard, but the sad part here is that even then it won't change anything.

You see, much like many of the posters whom, over the last few days, have made reality a subjective concept, PGI also is governed by this. To wit, no matter what is done in regard to tech or mech balance, as long as PGI remains convinced that "core game play mechanics are fine" then there will always be something giving someone an advantage in this mode, because those mechanics allow and even encourage the best players to go where they will and congregate there. That is the real "balance" problem. In a word: mercenaries. That mechanic is the problem and root of all balance issues in this mode.

To wit: if you accept that balance is never going to be 100% perfect (given all of the variables between techs and mechs, that seems reasonable) then that means there will always be a meta and always a population that runs it to the detriment of those that do not (like in every game ever). In such a system...as close to a perfectly balanced system as possible...there is still nothing to stop the best players (in units or not) from going to wherever they want to go; because PGI wills it so. Thus, the best will still be attracted to the best (while of course continuing to deny that there is such a thing, because after all they "just want good matches") and those who are either not the best and/or running not the best will continue to be regularly beaten and continue to be driven from the mode and eventually the game. All the while PGI will wring their hands about relative tonnage, quirks and monitor where high tier players are at (while hoping that they spread out and yet doing nothing to ensure that they do).

So by all means continue the circle je--k about tech balance. It doesn't matter because even if PGI tries to address it, the ability of the best players to overpopulate one side in their desire to play the latest mech or simply be the best will still result in a form of imbalance that PGI has, time and time again refused to acknowledge being a problem in this mode.

[Vincent Quatermain]

SlyJJ, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well... no. What matters is the damage they're dishing out.

One on one, yes. If all battles were duels, than obviously Clan is better. But all FP battles are team battles where overheating is a great way to have several enemy mechs evaporate you.

SlyJJ, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Oh how heartbreaking- you mean you cant intentionally make your mech slower.

Yes, which would allow more or heavier weapons, more ammo, etc. Thus, my point stands, omni mechs remove a dimension of customization.

SlyJJ, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Omnipods are anything but junk.

It is extremely rare that more than two omnipods per location are worth a ****. Yes, you can mix and match, but even so, certain locations will never have particular hardpoints. This is why your hypothetical omni Atlas could not have dual AC20 -- there is not, and never has been, an Atlas with a left torso ballistic hardpoint. Similar mech crafting constraints exist for all the Clan Omnis.

SlyJJ, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

You know why? Because of the "Ultra" quality! You're starting to get it, but so far away....

Can you even read? Is said the IS UAC5 is superior to the Clan UAC5. The multiple projectiles of Clan ACs are a huge nerf.

SlyJJ, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Suddenly we can twist our turrets and you think its working against you? IS mechs do not live longer because clans dish out twice the damage (as stated above). How this affects acquiring targets is beyond me-

Do you not torso twist away to spread damage, and then swing back to the target? You don't? Oh. . . maybe you should work on that before you beg PGI to "fix" a game that you clearly can't play for ****.

SlyJJ, on 16 December 2016 - 12:07 PM, said:

Of course you would- these changes balance the game by taking away the high cards that only YOU can hold....

Jesus Christ man, take yes for an answer. I just said that I am OK with mixed tech. My few objections to mixed tech are based on lore and aesthetics, which I would happily set aside for reliable matches.

[Geg]

Tahawus, on 15 December 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

MWO has moved into a post-factual space. Data and verifiable or statistical information no longer carry more weight than individual and anecdotal opinion.

Very few people seams to be disagreeing with argument that since the patch the Clans have gained an Edge. Most of the disagreement is around the question of degrees and of solutions. The community only has access to the information in aggregate and lacks the ability to correct for pilot rank, game modes, and maps.

[Vincent Quatermain]

I just put up a new forum thread with a poll about drop deck tonnage.

Lets quantify how good the Clans are relative to IS (at least as viewed by those of us dropping in Forum Play).

MWO PLAYERS AND FORUMWARRIORS: WHAT DO THEY KNOW ABOUT CLAN TECH? DO THEY EAT GLUE? LET'S FIND OUT!

[Sedmeister]

tee5, on 15 December 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

He is trying to use all the data he can get, and he is trying to use data. It is better than just saying Clan is OP, with not data or evidence. if he would have access to all the datas of PGI he would use it. But since PGI is not giving us the data, we can only use what we got and that is World Championship, MRBC, and these 300 people Impressions, etc.

Still better than just one guy saying in a video CLAN is OP, please NERF.
Because then guys like you would say: HEY BUT THAT IS JUST YOUR OPINION! SHOW ME DATA!


a beginner PUG has no c-bills, so he has not the c-bills to buy the expensive clan mechs.
So he can only buy the cheaper IS mechs. So it is more likely to play on IS-side in CW.
Alias all the new players, not so skilled players, because they are beginners play on IS side.

Those guys who have more c-bills to afford clan mechs, have more experience, because they played longer to grind all these c-bills for the clan mechs. Now that they have clan-mechs, they can go on Clan side. Ergo not so many unskilled players on Clan-side.

The above quote is helpful.

If you want to try and use the "IS pugs are bad and that is the totality of the problem" argument, I offer this as potential analysis.

• Noobs start with IS mechs because they are cheaper.
  
• Noobs therefore pledge to an IS house.
  
• Noobs get rolled by clanners.
  
• We now have a fork in the logic. EIther:
  
  • Noobs give up and go find another game or:
• Noobs slowly get better.
  
• Noobs get more money.
  
• Noobs purchase clan mechs.
  
• Noobs pledge to a clan.
  
• Clan puggies are better than IS puggies.

@Dane I appreciate you a - taking the time to compile the information and b - putting it out there. Similar to @Antigod, I appreciate everything you had to say up until the "let IS run clan mechs" part as your solution.


The only reason I play this game is because I played it as a kid on table top. If I wanted a sci fi base FPS I would play Hawken or Fractured Space. Not a threat, a fact. I play MWO not because I love FPS, I play it because of the rich background.

When the Hare Brained Schemes game comes out next year, and when MW5 becomes available, unless there is some kind of significant change to balance, there will not be a whole lot to hold me to MWO. I suspect if another poll was taken, the remaining IS players would most likely be largely composed of people similar to myself. We choose IS because of lore. Why else would you persist with substandard mechs except for narrative/lore reasons?

My suggestion, which I have stated a few times on these forums is:

• Let clan mechs be free to be OP as per lore. Scrap quirks, scrap nerfs, let the Kodiak stalk the battlefield as the undisputed king.
  
• Use lore to balance. Ie: let IS:
  
  • Bring more mechs to the contest. 11v12 or 10v12.
    
  • Give IS more tonnage.
    
  • Let IS set up in an advantageous part of the map.
    
  • Give IS more defensive based missions where they can set up first and make clan run the gauntlet.
    
  • Give IS (more) turrets.
    
  • Give IS ECM, satellite etc advantages.

Out of game, give IS greater rewards.


Basically, make advantages non mech based. That would be my solution.

A more complicated solution would be population caps. In lore, the clans were a very small but powerful population. Limit the IS house, clan and merc populations according to lore based stats.

More to think about.

Edited by Sedmeister, 17 December 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[PowerKill Necron]

First thing to do is balance the XL engines. Then you have faster more mobiles IS mechs that don't die when you rub up against them too hard. See how that goes, then we can talk about more drastic changes. Frankly how the IS XL engines made it into the game with the prospect of the superior clan ones on the horizon still shocks me to this day.

[M A N T I S]

Bud Crue, on 17 December 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Anyway, since reality is meaningless to many of you, so too I expect is anyone else's opinion. With that in mind, all we can do is wait for PGI to do whatever it is that PGI is going to do in this regard, but the sad part here is that even then it won't change anything.

So you make that snide remark, deny, reject then accept the answer, however unwittingly. Read your own post below.

Bud Crue, on 17 December 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

You see, much like many of the posters whom, over the last few days, have made reality a subjective concept, PGI also is governed by this. To wit, no matter what is done in regard to tech or mech balance, as long as PGI remains convinced that "core game play mechanics are fine" then there will always be something giving someone an advantage in this mode, because those mechanics allow and even encourage the best players to go where they will and congregate there. That is the real "balance" problem. In a word: mercenaries. That mechanic is the problem and root of all balance issues in this mode.

Yes, the stupid, dumb, know-nothing company named PGI knows nothing of their own game, nor how to balance it. If only they listened to you... the casual player and meta forum-posters of this game, all would be solved huh? Even though they have access to numbers you and I only dream of.

But wait, what is this??? Are we presently tied in the latest FP cycle, soon after PGI began assigning tonnage limits based on distribution on high tier players? It appears we are! Fancy that! Parity achieved once skill level is deemed to be the metric to balance on.

Quelle surprise.

Substitute the word "mercenaries" for "skill", and you nailed it.

Edited by M A N T I S, 17 December 2016 - 02:34 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I would be fine with a "lore" solution with the following caveats-

Clans in lore are 3/4 instead of 4/5. They are 33% better than average so only players who are 33% better KDR and win/loss get to play Clan mechs. Because human performance is a steep curve that's going to be less than 10% of players, the very best ones.

No liquid metal mechs. Stock builds.

All existing player wealth cut by 1/100th, all rewards cut by 1/100th, we add repair/realm and mechbay expenses to match the struggle to just maintain 1 mech.

Everyone gets 1 mech, even rulers of Houses didn't have stables of 100 personal mechs.

Clans have to bid and faction wide strategy (like say refusing to deploy LRMs for a critical battle where they would be a decisive advantage) is done by a GM who will consistently make bad decisions.

Clans don't have their own mech but are assigned mechs by a GM who will often send them in bad choices or under equipped to prove their worth.

Then we can make weapons all fire only 1 time every 10 seconds and so inaccurate that an average player has only a 50/50 chance of hitting with a ML at 130m, even then at a random location.

Sound good?

Or we can recognize that lore is pointless and an absolute failure of an idea for a FPS like this and balance changes need made to make it playable and fun.

[nehebkau]

MischiefSC, on 17 December 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

Or we can recognize that lore is pointless and an absolute failure of an idea for a FPS like this and balance changes need made to make it playable and fun.

I said this two years ago and people go so angry that I was concerned there would be a price on my head. But I still agree.