391 replies to this topic

[_Comrade_]

I won about 90% of my games today in unorganized pug clan matches without a lot of team work or coms. Clans mechs are just better meta, they smash IS builds easily

Edited by Grimwill, 18 December 2016 - 10:07 AM.

[Tordin]

May be a bit convoluted. But a fix could be in addition to the recent tonnage shift. there should be a limit on how many Merc units that can join eithetr side. If need be there should be some voting on which units can apply to IS and Clan. Then the remaining Merc units that didnt win the vote need to join the other side. Its all about the money right?
Maybe the 10 most successful Merc units could vote over who joins the IS and Clan.
Just a unpolished idea of mine.
The goal is to avoid, say that all the biggest, best units join only one side, leaving mostly pugs on the other.

[WANTED]

I like kumas point about giving each House and Clan a distinct difference in mechs and maybe weapon advantages or cbill reduction costs. Example Davion is big on ballistics and Victor assault mechs so Victors ( yes dont laugh they are actually quite decent now) are cheaper for anyone aligned Davion and certain ballistic weapons have extra 5 percent boost ( range or cooldown ) on top of already quirks on mechs. Do this for all Clans and Houses. That would really be interesting for all. Also allow realtime changes like tonnage restrictions so events and other factors can be adjusted on the fly.

[nehebkau]

Sedmeister, on 17 December 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

A couple of thoughts.

Surely it's not either or? Surely you can do both and?

The problem being that people are not aware enough to be able to distinguish game mechanics from lore. Lore is mythology, the cannon of stories built up as part of the BT world. Anything that involves a dice is not lore but game-mechanics and those should be tossed out the window tied to a brick. When you are thinking of BT one should ask, "Is this about the BT mythos or is this a mechanic created to assist in the dice-based game-play."

Lore is good.
Dice-based game mechanics are bad.

Jeeze I must be stupid ... why in the heck am I rehashing this after the last torch-and-pitchfork incident. Forget I said anything DICE RULE!.

Edited by nehebkau, 18 December 2016 - 10:35 AM.

[Freeman 52]

WANTED, on 18 December 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

I like kumas point about giving each House and Clan a distinct difference in mechs and maybe weapon advantages or cbill reduction costs. Example Davion is big on ballistics and Victor assault mechs so Victors ( yes dont laugh they are actually quite decent now) are cheaper for anyone aligned Davion and certain ballistic weapons have extra 5 percent boost ( range or cooldown ) on top of already quirks on mechs. Do this for all Clans and Houses. That would really be interesting for all. Also allow realtime changes like tonnage restrictions so events and other factors can be adjusted on the fly.

This would be an excellent loyalist-only reward. PGI please listen.

[kuma8877]

WANTED, on 18 December 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

I like kumas point about giving each House and Clan a distinct difference in mechs and maybe weapon advantages or cbill reduction costs. Example Davion is big on ballistics and Victor assault mechs so Victors ( yes dont laugh they are actually quite decent now) are cheaper for anyone aligned Davion and certain ballistic weapons have extra 5 percent boost ( range or cooldown ) on top of already quirks on mechs. Do this for all Clans and Houses. That would really be interesting for all. Also allow realtime changes like tonnage restrictions so events and other factors can be adjusted on the fly.

This is a very succinct way of saying something I implied but was too tired to include last night. Thank you.

On top of these types of ideas I would consider 2 or 3% quirk boosts for weapon/infotech systems that are representative of the faction's personality, in essence saying their techs are better at working on and tuning those systems because that is what they are typically known to field in battle. These types of ideas also have the added bonus effect of driving a need to communicate with other factions on each side (IS or Clan) to build well rounded teams to field against the opponent (as groups aren't locked to specific factions anymore). Each faction has a specialty or way of making war, and a player gets to decide by which playstyle bonuses a faction choice adds to his personal playstyle where to stake his or her flag.

Adding new factions just means creating a specific contract that represents that faction's lore based personality, for example Diamond Shark could have a reduction in all tech costs rather than specific items, representing their willingness to do business with anyone. Just as a direction to take the idea.

[Lehmund]

Carl Vickers, on 15 December 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

I dont think LFE's will solve the issue, make IS XL not insta death, normalization before more tech.

I would support this. PGI could make the speed penalty bigger than for clans if it helps.

We all just want fair good matches all around.

[SlyJJ]

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

One on one, yes. If all battles were duels, than obviously Clan is better. But all FP battles are team battles where overheating is a great way to have several enemy mechs evaporate you.

Learn to mechlab

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Yes, which would allow more or heavier weapons, more ammo, etc. Thus, my point stands, omni mechs remove a dimension of customization..

Your weapons are already lighter, already require fewer crits, and for all intents and purposes are vastly superior.... and you want more....

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Can you even read? Is said the IS UAC5 is superior to the Clan UAC5. The multiple projectiles of Clan ACs are a huge nerf.

Only if you cant aim.... multiple projectiles make it easier to hit fast moving targets. If all were equal, I'd probably prefer the one shot system like so many, but they're not because they've STILL got superior range and do double damage compared to IS.

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Do you not torso twist away to spread damage, and then swing back to the target? You don't? Oh. . . maybe you should work on that before you beg PGI to "fix" a game that you clearly can't play for ****..

Stop talking out of your ***. Typical clanner thinkgs twisting and turning keeps the deaths away. I dont die because my CT is crited- I die because you're weapons do greater damage from a greater range, wth greater speed and manuevering, and greater heat dissapation. I die because your light mechs can drop alphas comparble to our heavies and it melts through anything and everything thats got max armor

Vincent Quatermain, on 17 December 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Jesus Christ man, take yes for an answer. I just said that I am OK with mixed tech. My few objections to mixed tech are based on lore and aesthetics, which I would happily set aside for reliable matches.

Lore doesnt really apply when clans can field equal number of mechs, and clanners gang up on IS mechs. Because of this, clans have an overwhelming advantage because of vastly superior tech.

I really dont know what fantasy world you people live in. You are completely and utterly willfully ignorant. Mixing tech would prove our point. Figure if we did, the only IS tech that would be used is UAC5s and maybe pulse lasers.... and you and everyone else knows this (which is way you dont play IS.) Imnot trying to convince you to mix tech- Im trying to tell you the only people that think the game is balanced are clanners who want to believe its their "incredible" piloting skills

From MW3 onward what happened when you scavenged tech? You always wanted the clan stuff? Lighter, stronger, smaller and simply outright superior- thats how clan tech has always been described. You and the others attempt to say quirks matter, but for all intents and purposes all of your weapons are already quirked with +50% range and +30% damage.... you've got the equivalent of a IS LL that is 1 ton and 1 crit with your mL. You then have the gall to complain that you've got so many weapons on your mech its hard to cool andsomehow its an even fight because you cant mechlab....

We also have clan mechs that we game in QP you know? Its an instant double score multiplier whenever I go from IS to clan.....

Edited by SlyJJ, 18 December 2016 - 07:30 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

to all who say Clan tech isnt better take a IS Highlander and a Clan Highlander (732B vs IIC-C).

These two mechs are near identical. Same hitboxes. Same hardpoint number. Can equip virtually the same equipment (JJ, probe, IS has CC, Clan has TC) They even currently have nearly the same armor/structure quirks.

The only difference is Clan tech (CXLs, light weapons) and IS weapon/movement quirks (the 732B gets ballistic velocity and cooldown as well as some energy quirks and accel/decel).

Which mech performs better? I have posted this at least 5 other times and no one tries to respond. Either my idea is idiotic or it cant really be argued against. It also applies to the Orions. Take the ONI-V and ONI-IIC-C. same deal they are almost the same mech if not for Clan tech and IS quirks. so once again which is better?

Ultimately as long as there is imbalance the players will endlessly pursue the better side.

[Leone]

I 'unno. Don't have the the Mark Two Clan version, but I did take my IS brawling highlander straight into a dakka Kodiak and we both killed each other, so it doesn't seem underpowered to me.

~Leone.

[Mystere]

tee5, on 15 December 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

He is trying to use all the data he can get, and he is trying to use data. It is better than just saying Clan is OP, with not data or evidence. if he would have access to all the datas of PGI he would use it. But since PGI is not giving us the data, we can only use what we got and that is World Championship, MRBC, and these 300 people Impressions, etc.

There is just one problem. Bad data is still bad data and using it in any analysis will lead to nothing but a bad conclusion.

As such, the first order of business in any analysis is to check the validity of data. That's not even anywhere close to being rocket science.

TimberWolf87, on 15 December 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

Tbh balance is pretty close atm but you know what? I agree, let everybody bring in whatever they want for pgi has already thrown out every little bit of faction identity outta the window and there was little to nothing about lore in this game to begin with.

Well, instead of that, I'd rather the servers just get shut down, permanently.

Edited by Mystere, 18 December 2016 - 08:48 PM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

SlyJJ, you seem to be laboring under a great many misconceptions:

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Your weapons are already lighter, already require fewer crits, and for all intents and purposes are vastly superior.... and you want more....

First of all, I am not, and never have been, a Clan Loyalist. I am a merc, currently under Clan contract, but likely to switch to IS in the next couple days. I have played FP roughly equally between both sides, and I actually find IS a bit more fun.

Second, I don't want more. I just think the current balance is pretty close.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Only if you cant aim.... multiple projectiles make it easier to hit fast moving targets.

This statement is hilarious. Who cares if you are more likely to hit if you lack stopping power? If I wanted to sand away the surface of a light mech, I'd run LRMs like your average T4 fool. If I want to pop its leg off, I will need pinpoint damage.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Stop talking out of your ***. Typical clanner thinkgs twisting and turning keeps the deaths away.

I'm only describing the playstyle of anyone who is even remotely decent at this game. That you don't know what I'm talking about is highly revealing.

Also, not a "clanner." I play both factions and enjoy them both. I understand that you need me to fit into this stereotype -- otherwise you might have to come to grips with your scrub nature.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Lore doesnt really apply when clans can field equal number of mechs, and clanners gang up on IS mechs. Because of this, clans have an overwhelming advantage because of vastly superior tech.

Lore accurate Clan technology would be OP. MWO is neither.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

Mixing tech would prove our point. Figure if we did, the only IS tech that would be used is UAC5s and maybe pulse lasers.... and you and everyone else knows this (which is way you dont play IS.)

Again, I do play IS, so your premise is false.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

I'm not trying to convince you to mix tech- Im trying to tell you the only people that think the game is balanced are clanners who want to believe its their "incredible" piloting skills

I am living proof that you are wrong. I am not a clanner, yet I think the tech gap is small. You have a warped idea of the motives of the various sides in this debate. You have killed that strawman, though. He is so dead.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

From MW3 onward what happened when you scavenged tech?

In those games Clan tech was outright superior, by design. MWO has a different design intent, where Clan tech is supposed to be different, not straight-up superior. Look if you're getting senile in your old age, have your caregiver remind you that it's 2016, and this is MWO you're playing -- not MW3 in 1999. Here, have some Jello.

SlyJJ, on 18 December 2016 - 07:01 PM, said:

We also have clan mechs that we game in QP you know? Its an instant double score multiplier whenever I go from IS to clan...

Is that from 50 to 100 damage per match? Wow, I bet you even get a kill from time to time.

[DANKnuggz]

@Fallen Ace.... If you knew WTF you were talking about you'd know that EVIL doesn't play under that tag when they are on the IS side... they have several other units they bounce around from depending on which faction they are fighting for..... thanks for your ignorant comment though... and to those who "liked" his comment... you're just as ignorant as him.

Edited by DANKnuggz, 19 December 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Since we're down to 2 buckits for FP and supposedly a larger population to draw from as a result, it would seem that introducing some kind of matchmaker to FP would help before any changes to tech or other gameplay suggestions

[nehebkau]

VitriolicViolet, on 18 December 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

to all who say Clan tech isnt better take a IS Highlander and a Clan Highlander (732B vs IIC-C).

These two mechs are near identical. Same hitboxes. Same hardpoint number. Can equip virtually the same equipment (JJ, probe, IS has CC, Clan has TC) They even currently have nearly the same armor/structure quirks.

The only difference is Clan tech (CXLs, light weapons) and IS weapon/movement quirks (the 732B gets ballistic velocity and cooldown as well as some energy quirks and accel/decel).

Which mech performs better? I have posted this at least 5 other times and no one tries to respond. Either my idea is idiotic or it cant really be argued against. It also applies to the Orions. Take the ONI-V and ONI-IIC-C. same deal they are almost the same mech if not for Clan tech and IS quirks. so once again which is better?

Ultimately as long as there is imbalance the players will endlessly pursue the better side.

Thread win.

Can we go home now?

[Vonbach]

Just give IS the XL engines that don't blow up when you lose a side torso. That would go a long way to
helping the balance situation.

Edited by Vonbach, 19 December 2016 - 02:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

nehebkau, on 19 December 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

Thread win.

Can we go home now?

Yes but if someone answers that we'd have to really come face to face with the tech imbalance.

Nobody wants to do that, we want to have our Clan tech OP but pretend it's not and that it's the players fault for just not.... getting better at playing inferior tech.

[N0MAD]

So, at the moment can anyone tell me out of the say 12 top teams how many of those are Clan?
Anyone?

[Tiantara]

VitriolicViolet, on 18 December 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

to all who say Clan tech isnt better take a IS Highlander and a Clan Highlander (732B vs IIC-C).

These two mechs are near identical. Same hitboxes. Same hardpoint number. Can equip virtually the same equipment (JJ, probe, IS has CC, Clan has TC) They even currently have nearly the same armor/structure quirks.

The only difference is Clan tech (CXLs, light weapons) and IS weapon/movement quirks (the 732B gets ballistic velocity and cooldown as well as some energy quirks and accel/decel).

Which mech performs better?

- IIC-C better. 2xLRM20 artemis + 1980 ammo + 2xERLL + TCMKVI + STD engine 285 (hate loose speed after loosing side torso) do great on longrange if target not covered by ECM or AMS. If they do - laser do work good enough with higher chance of crit and slightly longer range. But that is my build on IIC-C with heatmanagement 1.31

If I take IS variant and try do the same... well...I got - 2xERLL + 2xLRM20 artemis + 2070 ammo + STD Engine 285 (XL here insta death, because too easy target wide side torso) with heatmanagement 1.22 and less laser range. Also, due limited missile tubes in hand - 20LRM go in two pack by 10+10 not as one. Also - without case - ammo blow mech to pieces and all rocket placed on one left side. So you can easy take off 40 potential damage by damaging left torso.

Two nearly identical builds works with difference. Yes - IS version more sturdy in play. But Clan do better crit on longer range even if both mech mastered.

[SlyJJ]

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

SlyJJ, you seem to be laboring under a great many misconceptions:

"Ironic" is what comes to mind.

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

First of all, I am not, and never have been, a Clan Loyalist. I am a merc, currently under Clan contract, but likely to switch to IS in the next couple days. I have played FP roughly equally between both sides, and I actually find IS a bit more fun.

Second, I don't want more. I just think the current balance is pretty close

I actually like IS more too- again its like playing on hard mode.

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

This statement is hilarious. Who cares if you are more likely to hit if you lack stopping power? If I wanted to sand away the surface of a light mech, I'd run LRMs like your average T4 fool. If I want to pop its leg off, I will need pinpoint damage.

Thats your misconception- you dont "lack" anything let alone stopping power. You still deal the same amount of damage with a single click, and double with a second click, and still + 50% range. When you show up to a small engagement and can instantly drop 80 points of damage with uac10s or 40-80 with uac20s, thats significant. You are already attacking internal structure and destroying you opponents weapons after the first volley.

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

I'm only describing the playstyle of anyone who is even remotely decent at this game. That you don't know what I'm talking about is highly revealing.

I twist my torso- you twist words. Torso twist helps spread damage and increase survivability- that you would bring up such a blatently obvious fact is a little sad. Whats the next pro-tip you'e got? Use lasers if you dont want to bring ammo?

Torso twist isnt doing anything when your opponents have the firepower of an IS assault mech in a clan light/medium mech. Once you start getting to the heavies and the assaults, the amount of damage they drop is insane. It doesnt really matter where they hit- because the damage goes through your torsos like a hot knife through butter. Why do I have to state the obvious? You know this, you just want to play ignorant.

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

Also, not a "clanner." I play both factions and enjoy them both. I understand that you need me to fit into this stereotype -- otherwise you might have to come to grips with your scrub nature.

Yes, you are a clanner- a merc that goes to clan is just as well. You know why you play clan and I do too. I dont mind not being among the elite in the game- I've got a life that Im quite successful at and gaming is not a way of life for me- I can accept that.

You on the other hand, sound like so many of the clanners who like to think of themselves as being "elite." This is one of the ways you do it by declaring that the game is balanced between the two (or worse when you claim it favors IS!). You're indirectly trying to pat youself on the back for being able to "pull out" a win as clan.

Every point of evidence supports our claims. EVERY successfull unit plays as clan....because of clan tech. Even IS loyalists that have gone clan mention how incredibly easy it is. I have a clan alt too- its easy mode. Get over yourselves- you're *not* that good- you've got awesome tech.... The fact that we can switch over to clan and duplicate your success, but clanners can *not* switch to IS and duplicate the same success is yet another example proving exactly what we're saying.

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

Again, I do play IS, so your premise is false.



I am living proof that you are wrong. I am not a clanner, yet I think the tech gap is small. You have a warped idea of the motives of the various sides in this debate. You have killed that strawman, though. He is so dead.

You dont understand what a strawman argument is. Im arguing the clan weapons are lighter, more powerful, have greater range, require fewer crits, and deal greater damage and thats quite evident by merely going to mechlab. Clan mechs are faster, get lighter engines, have interchangable hardpoints with omnipods and are simply outright superior to IS mechs. Theres not much debate over this.

You're attempting a strawman by talking about strategies that are blatently obvious to anyone that has played this game ever. Then you continue with your strawman by talking about how these odds can be overcome and what strategies can be employed, etc etc. No one is saying we cant, but we DONT CARE about that anymore. We are tired of the game being lopsided. You even acknowledge it is albeit "close" so you're not that hard headed...

Vincent Quatermain, on 18 December 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

In those games Clan tech was outright superior, by design. MWO has a different design intent, where Clan tech is supposed to be different, not straight-up superior. Look if you're getting senile in your old age, have your caregiver remind you that it's 2016, and this is MWO you're playing -- not MW3 in 1999. Here, have some Jello.



Is that from 50 to 100 damage per match? Wow, I bet you even get a kill from time to time.

You're trying too hard..... and embarassing yoursef

Edited by SlyJJ, 19 December 2016 - 09:29 PM.