150 replies to this topic

[S C A R]

Guys and PGI, before you read this topic, I'd like to point out that this is my view and view of my team mates. It may vary to views of other people and units. I am not saying that it is a right or wrong view and I am not saying that some of the solutions I offer are the way to move forward I am basically expressing my opinion. This is how we feel based on the last 3 days of game play.



Although PGI has attempted to resolve a FP “dilema” by brining QP maps into FP and reducing buckets (I am glad that they are trying at least) I am afraid those changes have been enough/successful at resolving the key issues with FP.



1)PUGs stomping:


From our experience playing for last several days (cumulatively unit players played over 30 Invasion games. This is not counting QP matches) we met units only 3 times. When I am talkinga bout units I really mean one unit MJ12. That’s it. All other games were against absolute novices (most of them didn’t even have unit tags). Those guys did on average between 20 to 300 damage. We had a whole banch of games with the score 48-4, 48-5, 48-3.



This is boring for us. Pugs don’t want to play like this and they quit FP.



Possible solution:



I know many people didn’t like the idea of quee splitting but I believe this is one way of resolving an issue. Split Groups vs Groups and Pugs vs Pugs. Prohibit one man units dropping into group quee. Provide adequate revards for the “pug” quee. Allow loaylist to put contracts for mercs to defend or attack specific planets. If a contract is achieved a unit gets additional cbills and loyalty points (without having to become loyalists).



2)Clans vs IS:


There is absolutely no incentive for teams to go to IS. IS is getting destroyed. Just in 2 days IS lost already close to 20 planets (or so). IS mechs are loosing badely on trades. There in no enough range or structure buffs to close the distance to clans for the brawling range.



Tonnage buff, although was a nice addition, is not enough. Too many new players join IS because clan mechs are expensive to buy and new players opt for IS mechs.


Trial mechs in FP MUST be BANNED! Most of the builds are terrible (based around “lore”), equipped with “lurms”, have way too little armor at the front and cooling so bad that they are practically unplayable even by experienced pilots.



Probation period. New players MUST not be allowed into FP unless they play 50, 75 or 100 games. Players need to have some experience to understand the flow of game a little bit.



3)Rewards for playing FP:


Most of players (long-term) who play FP are millioners or billioners. C-bills provide little to no incentives playing FP. A lack of competition is another massive turn-off for units. MC rewards are so small that they don’t provide any incentives at all. Let’s look at a medium unit with 30 to 50 player base. A unit receives 15 MC per cycle per planet. Which means that a team earns 45 MC per day or less than 1 MC per player if a unit size is over 40 players. What is 1 MC per day? Guys, come one.


Just to sum up everything. There is a big disbalance between Clans and IS. Teams are getting tired of playing vs pugs and pugs are getting tired of getting farmed. Whilst “tag of war system” made FP a bit more diverse and exciting this is not enough to keep FP population interested. Regretably, I am afraid the new system failed to address the core issues with FP…

Edited by S C A R, 15 December 2016 - 02:39 PM.

[DaFrog Jr]

One match in FP 4.1 taught me this: there's no point in fighting 12 marauder 11cs nascaring.
none.
especially followed by another round of summoners, orion 11cs with triple srm launchers and srm dogs.
Go get stuffed, this is anscar on nascar. At least in quickplay the massacre is over in 4 minutes tops. here I have to endure this for 15 minutes.

[feeWAIVER]

Agree.

[naterist]

ok, lets not freak about fp 4.1 not fixing its intended issue. i believe it did. games are much faster to find, and que times have dropped across the board. as far as i understood it, that was the one and only goal of fw 4.1. the problems we face now are not new problems. pgi stated that after fixing the que problems they would be moving on to fix other issues with fw. now the role of the community is to come up with ideas for the upcoming roundtable.

so what is that solution? i feel feel like a majority of players have already come to thevarious solutions needed.

1)limit who can play fw. some feel like you have to be teir 4, others say you should have x amount of games. just to stir the pot, it occurred to me that maybe you should only be allowed to play fw if your in a 12 man group. remove pugs entirely. all 3 options have merit.

2) XL engines are a major handicap. we can choose more weapons and speed for a two shot st kill, because lets be honost, the majority of clan meta builds can 2 shot kill a st on most mechs. the clans dont have that disadvantage. there are a variety of methods suggested for fixing this problem, i personally like normalizing the 2 xls, with the exception that IS loss of a st should = greater heat, and a higher percentage of speed is lost. the variables can be played with so that the lfe can have its own penalties with different values upon a side torso loss. others have stated their views on that though, and i leave it for pgi to sort out which is the best of those options, however i do strongly disagree with the idea that is just needs armour and st buffs. that only covers the problem, it doesnt adress the issue totally.

3)balancing units. i think we should remove the mc reward for mercenary units,make it so only loyalists can claim and tag planets, and recieve mc from them. mercenaries, on the other hand, should earn MC when they switch to another faction, and that faction will give out higher amounts of mc based both off how often that faction is losing, and what the units rankings are. so a unit ranked in the top ten of ALL units, gets a sizable mc bonus for switching, like a sign on bonus, but they cant tag planets and get mc that way, and a smaller merc unit in rank, like, 999999999, would get about 1 mc for signing on. this would encourage units to try and switch around to the side that is losing, and it could help any other fluctuations in player balance, plus it makes mercs feel more merc-ey.

those are my thoughts about the problems you stated. do you think that would fix it? if so, get in the next roundtable and get phil and daeron on your side. they seem like theyd understand and help with the pitch to russ.

however, 4.1 did fix the que problem. as they stated they wanted that to be their main and only foocus with 4.1 so...misssion successful. now the other issues are just more blatantly displayed because were seeing more matches. i was under the impression that 4.2 is intended to fix issues that become glaringly obvious when que times go down. that was why ques were their biggest issue to fix since 3.0. faster ques equals more data which equals a better solution down the line. i think their really playing the long, Long, LONG game on FW.

Edited by naterist, 15 December 2016 - 03:18 PM.

[MischiefSC]

S C A R, on 15 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Guys and PGI, before you read this topic, I'd like to point out that this is my view and view of my team mates. It may vary to views of other people and units. I am not saying that it is a right or wrong view and I am not saying that some of the solutions I offer are the way to move forward I am basically expressing my opinion. This is how we feel based on the last 3 days of game play.



Although PGI has attempted to resolve a FP “dilema” by brining QP maps into FP and reducing buckets (I am glad that they are trying at least) I am afraid those changes have been enough/successful at resolving the key issues with FP.



1)PUGs stomping:


From our experience playing for last several days (cumulatively unit players played over 30 Invasion games. This is not counting QP matches) we met units only 3 times. When I am talkinga bout units I really mean one unit MJ12. That’s it. All other games were against absolute novices (most of them didn’t even have unit tags). Those guys did on average between 20 to 300 damage. We had a whole banch of games with the score 48-4, 48-5, 48-3.



This is boring for us. Pugs don’t want to play like this and they quit FP.



Possible solution:



I know many people didn’t like the idea of quee splitting but I believe this is one way of resolving an issue. Split Groups vs Groups and Pugs vs Pugs. Prohibit one man units dropping into group quee. Provide adequate revards for the “pug” quee. Allow loaylist to put contracts for mercs to defend or attack specific planets. If a contract is achieved a unit gets additional cbills and loyalty points (without having to become loyalists).



2)Clans vs IS:


There is absolutely no incentive for teams to go to IS. IS is getting destroyed. Just in 2 days IS lost already close to 20 planets (or so). IS mechs are loosing badely on trades. There in no enough range or structure buffs to close the distance to clans for the brawling range.



Tonnage buff, although was a nice addition, is not enough. Too many new players join IS because clan mechs are expensive to buy and new players opt for IS mechs.


Trial mechs in FP MUST be BANNED! Most of the builds are terrible (based around “lore”), equipped with “lurms”, have way too little armor at the front and cooling so bad that they are practically unplayable even by experienced pilots.



Probation period. New players MUST not be allowed into FP unless they play 50, 75 or 100 games. Players need to have some experience to understand the flow of game a little bit.



3)Rewards for playing FP:


Most of players (long-term) who play FP are millioners or billioners. C-bills provide little to no incentives playing FP. A lack of competition is another massive turn-off for units. MC rewards are so small that they don’t provide any incentives at all. Let’s look at a medium unit with 30 to 50 player base. A unit receives 15 MC per cycle per planet. Which means that a team earns 45 MC per day or less than 1 MC per player if a unit size is over 40 players. What is 1 MC per day? Guys, come one.


Just to sum up everything. There is a big disbalance between Clans and IS. Teams are getting tired of playing vs pugs and pugs are getting tired of getting farmed. Whilst “tag of war system” made FP a bit more diverse and exciting this is not enough to keep FP population interested. Regretably, I am afraid the new system failed to address the core issues with FP…

Wait wait, so the solution isn't to tell the pugs to group up since that's all they need to do?

What about trying to force units to play IS with penalties? That won't work?

More tonnage will help - help move people to Clans because farming an extra 15 tons + of LRM Atlases and such is just giving Clans a pay boost.

I can group up, drop 3 WHR/GHR and a SHD/GRF and with decent players also in decent decks I'll win against any drop that isn't a good team like EVIL, KCOM and a couple others. However that doesn't mean they're balanced - if it was a team of equal skill the Clan mechs would have a number of advantages. Not huge, but significant.

That gets clouded in the constant pug stomps. When the other guy doesn't twist or aim the strengths of CXL vs my IS XL don't play out and my LPL/MLs chew him up, because he's trading with me at 200m even though his loadout is still optimal at 400-500m and mine is suddenly crap.

A lot of stubborn loyalists hung on a long time. This kept this train rolling for 2 years of showing the exact same thing again and again.

At this point though it's played out. Need an effective balance on tech and a FW that has a real reason to play both sides.


4.1 has short queue times because we got a huge population bump. When that falls to CW3 levels queues will do the same.

[Appogee]

S C A R, on 15 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

I know many people didn’t like the idea of quee splitting but I believe this is one way of resolving an issue. Split Groups vs Groups and Pugs vs Pugs. Prohibit one man units dropping into group quee.

I suggested this also, in a thread earlier today.

Same observation: IS has way too many PUGs, and they're getting stomped.

My 5-man team + 2 other guys in units couldn't carry matches today mostly because the 5 PUGs we were dropped with contributed so little damage and were permadead before wave 4.

[MischiefSC]

I want to opt in solo to group queue. Fill out 11s. Admittedly that leaves the door open to other problems though.

[Monkey Lover]

I agree with most of what you said but I find it funny you're not having fun smashing pugs but the easy solution of switching g to IS isn't even a option for you

Edited by Monkey Lover, 15 December 2016 - 04:03 PM.

[Natred]

Honestly I agree with this post if it's worth the compromise to make everyone happy. His idea with inner sphere xl is legit if it helps Balance the game then I'm ok with it as long as they remove a bunch of the inner sphere Mechs side torsos health and structure quirks to rebalance and take away the crutch.

[Sjorpha]

S C A R, on 15 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

1)PUGs stomping:


From our experience playing for last several days (cumulatively unit players played over 30 Invasion games. This is not counting QP matches) we met units only 3 times. When I am talkinga bout units I really mean one unit MJ12. That’s it. All other games were against absolute novices (most of them didn’t even have unit tags). Those guys did on average between 20 to 300 damage. We had a whole banch of games with the score 48-4, 48-5, 48-3.2)Clans vs IS:

Ok, so hello from MJ12 and thanks for great matches, we love playing you guys because believe it or not we sometimes have have a shortage of proper resistance despite being IS. You are a proper challenge and most of the matches have been really good.

Quote

2)


There is absolutely no incentive for teams to go to IS. IS is getting destroyed. Just in 2 days IS lost already close to 20 planets (or so). IS mechs are loosing badely on trades. There in no enough range or structure buffs to close the distance to clans for the brawling range.

The incentive to go IS is right there in your post.

As IS we get more good matches than you, we play against more decent units than you. We are probably having more fun per hour spent in CW than you because of that.

The tech imbalance is very real, it is a huge problem. I completely agree. Clan tech is complete EZ-mode right now.

But you are one of the strongest units in the game, you are stomping most units and pugs alike and would probably do so as IS too, but you would get more quality opponents and have more fun.

You're passing up on good matches to have shinier toys to stomp newbs with, why? I don't get that decision honestly.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

From our experience playing for last several days (cumulatively unit players played over 30 Invasion games. This is not counting QP matches) we met units only 3 times.

Quote

I know many people didn’t like the idea of queue splitting but I believe this is one way of resolving an issue. Split Groups vs Groups and Pugs vs Pugs. Prohibit one man units dropping into group quee. Provide adequate revards for the “pug” quee. Allow loyalist to put contracts for mercs to defend or attack specific planets. If a contract is achieved a unit gets additional cbills
and loyalty points (without having to become loyalists).

Just to note by your forum tag, you are a merc and not a loyalist who has gone Clan just as almost every merc unit. You can not say you did not expect that, did you ? If they did split "queues" all of the Clan mercs would be fighting over who gets to fight the few IS units, never mind the few Clan loyalist units........(chuckles)

Do you not see your own dilemma? Without pugs you would have FEWER fights and Ghost drops before you and most of your unit would abandon FP, again because almost everyone w/their dog unit went Clan to play with their Clan assault mechs/decks. And based on previous history, did they really expect to be fighting units more often than PUGS?


There is a reason why PGI has released a number of Clan assaults cause they are a big payday. Whatever IS mechs PGI were to release will be a shadow of that. First, because they will be build on IS tech pre-3055, including an isXL that is a glass component due to using only PART of the TT rules in a FPS game. Even IF PGI were to make isXL=cXL but with higher penalty differences, IS mechs in general rely more on energy weapons than anything else. Even with the recent UAC changes, IS only has UAC5 atm. Do not forget everthing IS has that is comparable to Clan tech is generally bulkier and heavier. This is not 3025 where everyone has access to only one tech base.

(chuckles) And Russians think Americans are crazy....

Edit/adding. Wanted to say domo for the OP. And to add, PGI is not able to code the game to prevent the imbalance of active merc between factions, at least not in its current form. That would need to be done outside the actual game itself, overseen by PGI for it to matter and make a difference because most of the merc units do not have the will nor need to do it themselves while there are PUGs willing to line up for the beatings, while it lasts.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 December 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Positive Mental Attitude]

Monkey Lover, on 15 December 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

I agree with most of what you said but I find it funny you're not having fun smashing pugs but the easy solution of switching g to IS isn't even a option for you

We switch all the time. The problem is most units dont actively seek a challenge bc theyre bored like us. I dont blame them either, some units cant play IS or barely do good enough on clan side as is.

[ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants]

S C A R, on 15 December 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Just to sum up everything. There is a big disbalance between Clans and IS. Teams are getting tired of playing vs pugs and pugs are getting tired of getting farmed. Whilst “tag of war system” made FP a bit more diverse and exciting this is not enough to keep FP population interested. Regretably, I am afraid the new system failed to address the core issues with FP…

\

Straight from the top FP unit in the game.

To all of you that poo poo'd Dane's post about Clan and IS imbalance... what say you now?

Now lets see if the 240 vs 265 PGI solution works.

[Lichtsteiner]

So now they will brake it so that evil will have a challenge?

Go IS, see if its still unbalanced.....................bet its not.

This has nothing to do with "Balance". this has to do with where the mercs are playing.

Edited by Lichtsteiner, 15 December 2016 - 05:47 PM.

[RaptorCWS]

ShiftySWP and the Pleated Pants, on 15 December 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

\

Straight from the top FP unit in the game.

To all of you that poo poo'd Dane's post about Clan and IS imbalance... what say you now?

Now lets see if the 240 vs 265 PGI solution works.

"We will continue to monitor the distribution of high-tier players within the Clan and Inner Sphere populations, and will implement changes to DropDeck tonnages based on those distributions as one method for improving Conflict balance. "

this change was made to balance the population not the tech. essentially its make good units so handicapped they are forced to move.

[Dex Spero]

naterist, on 15 December 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

it occurred to me that maybe you should only be allowed to play fw if your in a 12 man group. remove pugs entirely.

As a Merc PUG I would obviously vote "No" for removing pugs entirely, though I do agree with the other suggestions about limiting who can play based on either Tier or number of games, etc. And yes, yes a million times yes to Scar's suggestion that trial mechs not be allowed in FW. I also thought Scar's idea about splitting the queues between unit and solo may be the only realistic solution to the PUG-stomp issue.

I have an idea I'd like to share regarding the PUG-stomps that I'd like feedback on. It may have actually been implemented earlier in the game (I'm still quite new so wouldn't know). If it was I would love to hear why it didn't work. Likewise, if it wasn't but forum members can see major flaws in it I'd love to hear that as well.

As a merc PUG who doesn't want to be entirely blocked from FW I would support a system where each battle would be between a primary IS Loyalist unit and a primary Clan unit. To be considered a primary unit you must drop at least 7 pilots from your unit, that way you represent more than 50% of the team and this is still "your fight". There would be no game without a minimum 7v7.

Mercs like me would just fill ranks when a unit cannot bring a full 12-pilot team. When I started FW I actually assumed this is how it would work because its the very definition of mercenary: we are degenerate scumbags who care little for nations or flags or ideologies but are willing shoot people if you give us enough c-bills). We would still take contracts but there would no longer be any merc units. Basically, only PUGs would be mercs; anyone in a unit would be a loyalist.

Some key points of the idea:
1) In another hot topic post today (the 8 billionth thread about "is clan tech op?") it has been suggested that one reason people are unwilling to switch from Clan to IS is because they do not want to play with the IS pugs who are newcomers using trial mechs, etc. If the 5-pilot PUG cap was implemented the worst scenario would be 7/5 (yes, 5 of us can absolutely ruin your game, but hopefully many of the scenarios would be 11/1, 10/2, etc).

2) Units who regularly find themselves using mercs would eventually bypass the russian roulette of random PUG assignment by adding certain mercs to their friends list and inviting them to join the drop. This recently happened to me and it was very encouraging to be invited along, thus increasing the odds I will keep playing FW and eventually join a unit. Mercs who follow orders will get invited to drop again and again with different teams; these invitations would reward and reinforce the behaviour of following orders and taking advice. I think this is a better motivation for players to improve, take advice, communicate, etc., then getting yelled at (the carrot is always more effective then the stick)

3)Optional Advanced Idea to Implemented Later: You could base the Mercenary Rank on loyalist feedback. At the end of each game the company commander would get a dialog box with the merc's name and 3 choices: +1, 0, -1. It would only take 5 seconds to evaluate 5 mercs. Merc ranks could be posted and units could use the info when deciding who to invite when filling out a team. Maybe it would be optional so your ranking wouldn't be public if you didn't want it to be, but also maybe your ranking would have a small impact on your pay rate.

4) Mercs like me are going to have to suck it up and deal with the fact that we suddenly have longer wait times because now we are just filler. We are also going to have to deal with the fact that we might never get a match at all if we are consistently terrible or insist on bringing trials mechs or ridiculous builds. Want to bring 4 LRM boats? Go for it! Wanna hide in the spawn and snipe with your first mech while the rest of the team dies body blocking Omega? Great! Enjoy your 6-hour wait for a game once all the units observe your deck or playstyle. I think the units would be more tolerant of the PUGs/mercs and be more likely to guide them and coach them if the units felt they had ANY CONTROL or ANY SAY in which PUGs they play with.

This may sound like it sucks for the PUGs but this will push us to follow orders, build better decks, follow the primary team's game plan, and eventually find units, become loyalists, etc. I'm not into Battletech lore but I still think FW should belong to the loyalists. It seems unfair that the IS is losing territory because 12 PUG teams are filling buckets to face Clan units. Having a system that acknoledges this is a Loyalist war doesn't mean mercs don't have an important role to play, it just means we know our role is to support the units, not be units ourselves.

Thoughts? Salt bombs? Should I make an appointment with my therapist?

EDIT: HAHA sorry for the people who posted very similar things to the Encyclopedia length post I just made... it honestly took me so long to write that you posted your thoughts while I was busy typing!

Edited by Dex Spero, 15 December 2016 - 06:38 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Except they're not handicapped as 90% of their matches are still against pugs, just with 15 tons more salvage to farm for all 12 pugs. My having a SHD/GRF instead of an Oxide on 1 drop for the 1 in 50 matches they play a coordinated team isn't hurting EVIL or going to help me win trades.

A bad medium instead of a bad light or an LRM KC instead of an LRM BLR isn't going to help bad IS pugs either.

The tonnage difference doesn't matter. If changes nothing. It's like the mobility quirks on the KDK3. Almost irrelevant to the issue.

Edited by MischiefSC, 15 December 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[Natural Predator]

I'm putting my Group together now to go pub stomp puggies just to prove that weight has nothing to do with it. OP Teamwork and proper faction play builds wins the day. Good job PGI. Good game to any IS comp teams that run across us. We can win the first two waves now and still lose when we drop vipers against thunderbolts.

[Count Zero 74]

Never thought I'd say that but S C A R is right on most of the points he made. Not all (cuz he's EVIL u know ) but most.

[mesmer]

PGI will add a matchmaker for CW soon. Likely based on PSR.