102 replies to this topic

[Tiantara]

1 21 Giggawatts, on 19 December 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

And to be honest I think thats the way it should be. I think two identical factions would be boring.

- Yeap... agree.

1 21 Giggawatts, on 19 December 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

Believe it or not Mischief on most Invasion maps, i believe IS has the advantage. Chokepoints can keep the range of engagement to under 300m - and IS mechs can alpha all day with that short burn time and cooler laser vomit.

- Problem is... not all IS mech can come close enough or keep distance with much faster and more agile clan mech. Or die fast if have XL and take 2 clan enemy mech in battle 1 vs 2.

1 21 Giggawatts, on 19 December 2016 - 05:15 PM, said:

What we are seeing with the introduction of quickplay maps is the abillity to really use range in some scenarios. I know we have been building our dropdecks to take advantage of this, it seems most of the IS pugs we have faced havnt, this has resulted in easy wins. Im sure they will catch on soon. Im not going to be on much for the next 2 weeks but I fully expect by the time I come back the dust will have settled and things will have evened out.

- But that some scenarios really rare or nearly impossible on some maps where you can be killed from range, aimed by LRM without place to hide. And that map more than enough now. Except some like HPG manifold, Terra and so on. Also really rare to see mixed teams with 3-4 mech who can do it's role best.

[Volkodav]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Going to quote this from someone else who broke it down pretty well.





CSJx played a good long while in CW1. Most the people currently in EMP played too in CW 1 and a bit in CW 2, CSJ loyalists.

In fact they would routinely mock IS players for being *stupid* enough to play IS tech when it was so utterly imbalanced toward Clans. I've had the pleasure of Heimdelight mock the pug team I was playing in for the whole match on the topic. Given how bad IS pugs can be and that my team refused to open the gates (we were *attacking*) and I actually had to do so myself, literally just so they could come farm the poor terrified terribads I'd ended up in that unfortunate drop with and I could get on to another match.

Admittedly those EMP guys are scrubs with no real idea how game/mech balance works so take that with a grain of salt. I mean how could they *possibly* understand IS/Tech balance as well as some of the people up this thread.

Right?

Almost all the Clans. Who, even without mercs for CL, will confront them.

Edited by Volkodav, 20 December 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[BattleBunny]

Appogee, on 18 December 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

Large coordinated teams will win every time.

EVIL is a very good team. It's not surprising that you win, regardless of which side you play.

If EVIL in IS Mechs could play EVIL in Clan Mechs, which EVIL do you think would win?

agreed 100%.

Using team stats from a good team to prove game balance is pretty silly. Offcource a good unit like EVIL will get good statistics, no matter what side they pick.

Clans have the best papers mechwise and techwise. weapons are lighter, have more range, mechs are faster, xl engines dont explode as easy, etc. Quirks used to favor IS mechs a bit but now both sides are quirked (Summoner best example).

Last few mechs released on the clan side are all top notch to, with great hardpoints and hitboxes.

Edited by BattleBunny, 20 December 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Appogee]

Appogee, on 18 December 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

If EVIL in IS Mechs could play EVIL in Clan Mechs, which EVIL do you think would win?

IS would be the lesser of the two EVILs.

[Leone]

Using team stats from a buncha good players to prove game balance is also silly.

Is mechs have the best stats, mechwise and techwise. Their weapons run cooler, fire faster, generally have structure quirks, and standard engines can survive both side torsos blowing up.

And have you seen the unseen? Some pretty sweet mechs in that bunch.

~Leone.

Edited by Leone, 20 December 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[Starbomber109]

Tiantara, on 20 December 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

- Problem is... not all IS mech can come close enough or keep distance with much faster and more agile clan mech. Or die fast if have XL and take 2 clan enemy mech in battle 1 vs 2.

I could argue that you shouldn't be trying to fight any mechs 1vs2. And I could argue that it's linked to skill disparity, but I think this one boils down more to how much teamwork your team lacks rather than 'individual skill'. Some 'individually skilled' players can take 2v1 and still win, given their foes are noobs. However, given 3 players with equal skill and their team abandoned the 1, the 2 will win every time. The team abandoning that 1 is more of the problem than the IS XL engine in that scenario.

Getting shot in the back is a bigger problem, and if your back armor holds up, you have a different problem. Some new players bring as much as 10-15 back armor, while veteran players tend to run with about 5-6 (or less depending on the mech.) I thought my Griffin was weak and kept losing a side in scouting until I switched to about 5 back armor.

[MischiefSC]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 19 December 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

All the Highlander and Orion differences point out is that PGI is capable of building sub-par IIC's (that few use) out of terrible IS Mechs (that few use). I would take an Oxide over a Jenner iic any day. The rest of the IS Jenners not so much..

The question that is relevant today is: Does one believe that the IS currently can't build a deck @ 265 tons that legitimately can compete in FW with a Clan deck @ 240 tons?

You hit the crux of it. IS needs a tonnage buff to compete - and that's with skilled teams who know how to use the tonnage.

3 GHR vs 3 Thuds is a solid, useful improvement - if you own them and can use them.

The point though is what that looks like for the other 90% of players. That Highlander match up is exactly what the tech imbalance is about. For the average player who doesn't twist well or at all that difference in tech is what defines FW and the huge win/loss disparity over the last 2 years in FW and why units have slowly migrated to Clans.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

You hit the crux of it. IS needs a tonnage buff to compete - and that's with skilled teams who know how to use the tonnage.

3 GHR vs 3 Thuds is a solid, useful improvement - if you own them and can use them.

The point though is what that looks like for the other 90% of players. That Highlander match up is exactly what the tech imbalance is about. For the average player who doesn't twist well or at all that difference in tech is what defines FW and the huge win/loss disparity over the last 2 years in FW and why units have slowly migrated to Clans.

Regarding the "other 90%": I don't know any possible way PGI can balance a game for the 90% (or whatever % it really is) that don't know how to use their mechs properly (or don't own the good IS mechs) without seriously distorting competition amongst the better players/teams. If (for arguments sake) 265 vs. 240 is a fair fight (not sure it is) for teams of roughly equivalent skill, that is balance. I might have preferred they used something other than tonnage to do it...but it would be balance. Other methods need to probably be employed to encourage more talent spread.

[MischiefSC]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 20 December 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Regarding the "other 90%": I don't know any possible way PGI can balance a game for the 90% (or whatever % it really is) that don't know how to use their mechs properly (or don't own the good IS mechs) without seriously distorting competition amongst the better players/teams. If (for arguments sake) 265 vs. 240 is a fair fight (not sure it is) for teams of roughly equivalent skill, that is balance. I might have preferred they used something other than tonnage to do it...but it would be balance. Other methods need to probably be employed to encourage more talent spread.

Based on human skill curve it's likely closer to 94%. Vast majority of people in any skill don't move much either side of mediocre. In an environment like MWO where there isn't a ton of nuance the drop is steep. Top tier players are splitting percentage points for a relative advantage.

Tech balance means pug v pug is one sided. That means regardless of tonnage units in IS can't carry every single pug to win worlds. So they go back Clans.

Same as happened for years only now in 1 Bukkit no way to escape your pugload and snake some tags. So IS units that used to still get tags like HHOD can no longer do so.

So they evaporate, play alts or go merc, broadening skill gap.

Pugs fade as they tire of stomps.

Population spirals down.

Sound familiar? Only now with 1 Bukkit the front-hopping to escape your pugload and pull the odd tag or find some good matches is gone.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

Based on human skill curve it's likely closer to 94%. Vast majority of people in any skill don't move much either side of mediocre. In an environment like MWO where there isn't a ton of nuance the drop is steep. Top tier players are splitting percentage points for a relative advantage.

Tech balance means pug v pug is one sided. That means regardless of tonnage units in IS can't carry every single pug to win worlds. So they go back Clans.

Same as happened for years only now in 1 Bukkit no way to escape your pugload and snake some tags. So IS units that used to still get tags like HHOD can no longer do so.

So they evaporate, play alts or go merc, broadening skill gap.

Pugs fade as they tire of stomps.

Population spirals down.

Sound familiar? Only now with 1 Bukkit the front-hopping to escape your pugload and pull the odd tag or find some good matches is gone.

I agree with a lot of your concerns. Question is always how to solve them without creating a distortion on the other end.

I do think you are spot on with the PUG issue. New players seem to start IS and it's horrific. I know folks have talked about banning trial Mechs...I would be totally in favor of making the IS trials actually good. XL engines, good loadouts, etc. show new players what an IS mech is supposed to look like in FW.

Yes...many new IS players leave the game or go Clan. They can then beat even newer players on the IS side, but get wiped out by IS teams or even a few experienced players pugging it up.

PGI has "fenced" FW a little, but probably not adequately. I get it...They don't want to make the bar too high, but it is basically "agree to these terms and don't complain if you get your tail kicked". New players just think "how bad can it be?" and jump in, get stomped and quit. No tech (or tonnage) adjustments will change that outcome if they won't put the work in to eventually figure things out.

I do think the bucket reduction has reduced the opportunity for the losing side to accomplish "something". In phase 3 if JF was kicking your tail you could attack someone else and get a break...maybe take a planet or two. This is really all or nothing.

[MischiefSC]

It's not that new players start IS. It's that the tech imbalance favors new players. Face tanking, 2x the ST durability for Clans doubles your survival odds, better range means more total shots doing damage among players who don't get range control and positioning.

You show up and derp in a Clan mech you've got more range and you survive ST loss and are fast enough to close or get away as needed. Derp in IS you die in slightly over 1/2 the damage and are drastically more vulnerable to players who can aim, you are helpless at longer ranges without LRMs (dear god) and are often too slow to escape your bad positioning choices.

There is not time CXL isn't better. It gives up nothing. Nor do CDHS, Cendo and CJF. There's some tradeoffs in Clan/IS weapons but those have no tradeoff. They're also very valuable to new players.

Without a balance that effects the whole spectrum there's no real way to motivate a long term skill balance. High skill players will move toward advantages and environments that reward their success.

Time to balance tech. Then we can unlock Omnimechs.

[Commander A9]

What happens when the big teams switch to Inner Sphere and starts winning consistently?

Will Inner Sphere be considered overpowered again?

[MischiefSC]

Commander A9, on 20 December 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

What happens when the big teams switch to Inner Sphere and starts winning consistently?

Will Inner Sphere be considered overpowered again?

Drive an IS win for planets all 3 cycles for a couple weeks.

You know own that's a bad argument, right?

Again, pretending that a 25 ton drop deck variance and being in a unit and doing well in FW has anything, at all and in any way, to do with tech balance is so disingenuous as to be absurd.

Drop in the least quirked Highlander vs someone in a HGN IIC. Play like a pug (minimal to no twisting).

Play in IS for 3 months. Tell me what your unit says/does.

These sort of disingenuous conversations trying to sidestep the tech imbalances and that impact on the population as a whole is what's left us in this situation.

[Jun Watarase]

Im really confused by all the claims that clans are so OP. If clans are so OP, then surely the majority of top players in FW would be playing clans (and would have been playing clans for years, since things like XLs have never changed, meaning the meta has largely been the same). If that was true, then there would have been a massive skill disparity in FW and most matches would be good clan players vs bad IS players, because most top players in a game like this would naturally pick the most powerful option and stick with it. There was a time when you could drop into 10 quick play matches and almost everyone would be in a thunderbolt pulse boat of some sort...that's when you knew things were broken because almost everyone was using the same thing.

I havent played enough FW matches in 4.1 yet, but outside of the initial FW release, most FW matches (at least 75% I would say) that I have been in were pointless 12-2 stomps in the first wave where IS was the winning side and it quickly degenerated into spawn camping. The only times where I saw clans winning the majority of matches were the initial release of FW and the steam release where there was a massive influx of new players mostly on the IS side. Otherwise, out of 10 FW matches, 7 or 8 would be typically against a IS unit which would walk all over the clan side even if the clan side was 50% made up of players from a unit.

If clans are so meta, then the vast majority of top players would have been playing clans all this time and most FW matches that I saw would have been IS newbies getting stomped...this hasn't been my experience however. The impression that i've been getting is that most of the good units are actually on the IS side...since most of the time I was dropping on a planet and the match would quickly turn into clanners getting spawn camped by some IS unit. If there really was such a massive skill disparity between IS and clans, then I should have been dropping on planets and effortlessly winning more than 75% of my matches because the IS side would have had such a massive shortage of skilled players for me to play against.

IIRC, earlier this year, Clan wolf even got stomped so hard they lost most of the planets in their starting zone. That's kind of hard to explain if most of the top players were playing clans because clans have been the meta for years.

But previous iterations of FW allowed you to pick which planet you wanted to drop on and gave you info like win %, and this was a bad idea because it allowed you to influence opponent selection to a degree. So the results can perhaps be explained by a non-random opponent selection. FW 4.1 removed all of that and the only thing you can do now seems to be to queue up randomly like in quick play, so it should hopefully be more random now. I remember during the steam release, I was dropping to attack planets and I would keep ending up on teams with players from units like KCOM, and 90% of the time the opposing team would be just random newbies in trial mechs. Not hard to guess how those matches went. I would see a IS unit once every couple of hours, if at that. It was like all the IS units had decided to go somewhere else.

If clans really are the meta, and if most of the top players are stacking the clan side, then in FW 4.1, it should be really easy to see this just by queuing up a bunch of matches...on average, I should end up in matches with a skilled clan team vs random IS newbies. It will be interesting to see what happens as I play more matches to build a larger statistics pool. So far, I think i've seen slightly more than 50% IS wins, and after the hotfix, clans were getting curb stomped REALLY bad in invasion mode, although clans were winning badly in scouting mode.

Maybe all the top clan players just happened to be playing scouting mode and all the top IS players just happened to be playing invasion mode after the servers went back up. *shrug*

[Starbomber109]

Jun Watarase, on 20 December 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

Im really confused by all the claims that clans are so OP. If clans are so OP, then surely the majority of top players in FW would be playing clans (and would have been playing clans for years, since things like XLs have never changed, meaning the meta has largely been the same). If that was true, then there would have been a massive skill disparity in FW and most matches would be good clan players vs bad IS players, because most top players in a game like this would naturally pick the most powerful option and stick with it. There was a time when you could drop into 10 quick play matches and almost everyone would be in a thunderbolt pulse boat of some sort...that's when you knew things were broken because almost everyone was using the same thing.

I havent played enough FW matches in 4.1 yet, but outside of the initial FW release, most FW matches (at least 75% I would say) that I have been in were pointless 12-2 stomps in the first wave where IS was the winning side and it quickly degenerated into spawn camping. The only times where I saw clans winning the majority of matches were the initial release of FW and the steam release where there was a massive influx of new players mostly on the IS side. Otherwise, out of 10 FW matches, 7 or 8 would be typically against a IS unit which would walk all over the clan side even if the clan side was 50% made up of players from a unit.

If clans are so meta, then the vast majority of top players would have been playing clans all this time and most FW matches that I saw would have been IS newbies getting stomped...this hasn't been my experience however. The impression that i've been getting is that most of the good units are actually on the IS side...since most of the time I was dropping on a planet and the match would quickly turn into clanners getting spawn camped by some IS unit. If there really was such a massive skill disparity between IS and clans, then I should have been dropping on planets and effortlessly winning more than 75% of my matches because the IS side would have had such a massive shortage of skilled players for me to play against.

IIRC, earlier this year, Clan wolf even got stomped so hard they lost most of the planets in their starting zone. That's kind of hard to explain if most of the top players were playing clans because clans have been the meta for years.

But previous iterations of FW allowed you to pick which planet you wanted to drop on and gave you info like win %, and this was a bad idea because it allowed you to influence opponent selection to a degree. So the results can perhaps be explained by a non-random opponent selection. FW 4.1 removed all of that and the only thing you can do now seems to be to queue up randomly like in quick play, so it should hopefully be more random now. I remember during the steam release, I was dropping to attack planets and I would keep ending up on teams with players from units like KCOM, and 90% of the time the opposing team would be just random newbies in trial mechs. Not hard to guess how those matches went. I would see a IS unit once every couple of hours, if at that. It was like all the IS units had decided to go somewhere else.

If clans really are the meta, and if most of the top players are stacking the clan side, then in FW 4.1, it should be really easy to see this just by queuing up a bunch of matches...on average, I should end up in matches with a skilled clan team vs random IS newbies. It will be interesting to see what happens as I play more matches to build a larger statistics pool. So far, I think i've seen slightly more than 50% IS wins, and after the hotfix, clans were getting curb stomped REALLY bad in invasion mode, although clans were winning badly in scouting mode.

Maybe all the top clan players just happened to be playing scouting mode and all the top IS players just happened to be playing invasion mode after the servers went back up. *shrug*

I just want to say, your experience has been very different from mine...

edit: but as someone else told me "anecdotes are not data"

Edited by Starbomber109, 20 December 2016 - 06:45 PM.

[Fake News]

look this is not ******* fun anymore.
we either roflstomp pugs and that isn't fun or we meet a team that runs the meta and uses the considerable tonnage advantage and we get wrecked 3-4 th wave trying to face heavy and assaults witb mediums.

I'm not the best player on my team, but im not the only one by far complaining about this ****. find some other way to balance this because it is terrible.

[MischiefSC]

ebolachan, on 20 December 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

look this is not ******* fun anymore.
we either roflstomp pugs and that isn't fun or we meet a team that runs the meta and uses the considerable tonnage advantage and we get wrecked 3-4 th wave trying to face heavy and assaults witb mediums.

I'm not the best player on my team, but im not the only one by far complaining about this ****. find some other way to balance this because it is terrible.

You need to actually run Clan meta. Welcome to IS gameplay against units for the last 2 years!

You need a synergy deck with your team, you need set strategies and a good drop caller or you'll get rolled by a team that uses that. The tonnage difference means nothing to pugs - units however can use that for a deck of all carry mechs and win on pure grind.

It is a terrible balance system - should balance the tech. Fixes a ton of issues and then you can unlock omnis.

[Fake News]

MischiefSC, on 20 December 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

You need to actually run Clan meta. Welcome to IS gameplay against units for the last 2 years!

You need a synergy deck with your team, you need set strategies and a good drop caller or you'll get rolled by a team that uses that. The tonnage difference means nothing to pugs - units however can use that for a deck of all carry mechs and win on pure grind.

It is a terrible balance system - should balance the tech. Fixes a ton of issues and then you can unlock omnis.

oh we run the meta, but now this change locks you into laservom and nothing else. ******* boring and ill be glad to play something fun.

[MischiefSC]

ebolachan, on 20 December 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

oh we run the meta, but now this change locks you into laservom and nothing else. ******* boring and ill be glad to play something fun.

Tell me about it. For the last 2 years we've had our choice of like 4 mechs at any give time each with 1 specific build. Sometimes 2. That change every 3 months so you need to own and master a ton of mechs just to always have a decent dwck.


Conversely on my Clan accounts I have TBRS, ACH and SCR for one and EBJ, SCRs for the other. Always good options.

Compared to my WHRs, GHRSs, THDSs, BLR, BNC, MAL, Atlases, BJs, SHD, GRF, RVNSs, Oxide, Huggin, Top Dog, Firestarters...

I'm sure I've missed some. Only specific variants in each, which change, each with a specific build.

I'd love to get to take some variety but doing so gimpy my team

[Jun Watarase]

Starbomber109, on 20 December 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

I just want to say, your experience has been very different from mine...

edit: but as someone else told me "anecdotes are not data"

Anecdotes are not data, true, but i have played countless FW matches over the years and outside of two periods (initial release + steam), most were clans getting spawn camped.

Then there were stuff like this : http://imgur.com/a/eIwHg

Where were all the top clan players who were stacking the clan side because clans were the meta?

If people are saying that they face random IS newbies 90% of the time when dropping with a top team, theres an obvious reason for that, because you are stacking the deck in your favor in the first place. Its when you are doing completely random drops and you end up with 90% top players vs newbies (like the steam release), then you can stop and say "Hey, theres an obvious skill disparity here".