125 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Koniving, on 27 December 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

Summoner brawler build....?

Do tell.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f0146acc51a230e

[Juodas Varnas]

Koniving, on 27 December 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

Never seen one (on a Summoner).
What is this "SRM Boat"? We have a navy?

Seriously?
You've never seen 5xA-SRM6 Summoner?
It was like one of the most popular Summoner builds until the high-mounted PPC nipples came out!

[mogs01gt]

Fix the AC20 and ac10 to help IS mechs.

Reduce the cooldowns
reduce heat(heat on the ac20 is ******* wonkers)
increase range
increase ammo

The ac20 should be feared and its not.

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 December 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[1453 R]

El Bandito, on 27 December 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

And why should PGI give a damn about stupid people wanting quirks instead of actual balance? If PGI actually want their game to become better balanced, they should try to grow some balls while making some fundamental changes.

They shouldn't, but they clearly do. To be fair, we sort of forced them to with our constant demands for better communication and agency. It's not our fault they seem to've mistaken "Surrender our spines" for "let us know what you're doing and maybe take a few pointers on things we'd like to see done."

Oh well. No help for it now, I suppose. SMUQuirks Go.

El Bandito, on 27 December 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

Also, lets get real. Many T2 and T3 techs, such as X-Pulse, or Light Gauss, while offering more diversity, are more of a sidegrade than straight up upgrade, according to their original values. A Light Gauss will never be directly superior than CGauss. An X-Pulse will never be directly superior than Clan pulse.

...and?

"Their original values" mean bupkiss save for indicating the general direction the spirit of the weapon is intended to go, plus we're trying to avoid 'direct superiority' in as many cases as possible, ne?

You're a reasonably intelligent individual. You can likely see just as easily as I can the myriad of ways to play with tertiary values Piranha's always had to set themselves anyways, or adjust the tabletop figures as required, to get new gear to work properly. Light Gauss is stupid easy. X-Pulse lasers are less clear-cut, but only because we don't have a proper global laser weapon paradigm in place yet.

I love theorycrafting weapon/equipment values and behaviors for Different-But-Equal interpretations of Clan or Sphere gear and could go on about it for hours. I'm hardly alone in this, nor do others show much restraint about posting their work. The ideas and concepts are out there, all over the place, should Piranha somehow be unable to figure out the same ideas themselves. This is not rocket science.

Edited by 1453 R, 27 December 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

You know what I would love? Since PGI picks and chose which Level of tech rules to use go back to level 1 with engines and ALL engines have 10 internal heat sinks. so I don't have to waste 3 tons of weight and 9 crit spaces to load DHS on my commando.

[Koniving]

Juodas Varnas, on 27 December 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

Seriously?
You've never seen 5xA-SRM6 Summoner?
It was like one of the most popular Summoner builds until the high-mounted PPC nipples came out!

I might have... But Summoners don't usually get to get close to me. I know LRM-only Summoners seem popular, and nipple guns.

[ztac]

Just another clan mechs are op pls nerf thread!

Shouldn't the real topic be about how unbalanced the game is overall? From everything to a ridiculous implementation of a PSR system , matchmaker all the way to actual builds? You know this game was far more fun in the heady days of beta?

But only those trhat PGI have showed love to seem left in this game! The more objective people just pass by in the night .. we come , take a look at what the stae of the game is for now and move on!

[Fobhopper]

mogs01gt, on 27 December 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

The ac20 should be feared and its not.

Dual AC20 KGC would like a word with you. You know when you see a KGC with those sexy AC20's that you are going to get 40 instant damage smacking the **** out of you if you are in range. Nobody underestimates a KGC because of just how much damage they can put out in close range.

On an atlas though, nobody is afraid of a single AC20, but they certainly try to tank/dodge/outrun it because its still 20 instant damage (if it hits you).

And as someone who pilots a lot of KGC's (I have 5 right now, dakka 4uac5, clanbuster, lrm boat, more dakka 2ac20, more dakka 2ac20), while I would like heat gen reduced and increased range on the AC20, I know its not going to bring actual parity. You just have to control your shots and actually aim.

As for the original topic. I think bringing in LFE's, as well as sidegrade weapons like X-pulse and light guass will at least help deal with some of the disparities seen between IS and Clan. IS at this time period were known for having access to a wide range of weapons that the Clans didnt have or didnt care for (like thunderbolt missiles) but we dont have them in the game. Filling in some of these loadout missing links as well as introducing IS omnimechs will certainly add some parity between the factions without giving any side an instant OP mech. Clans have both omnimechs and battle mechs right now, superior XL engines, superior weapon ranges, improved weapons behavior with targeting computers, better overall double heatsinks and built in CASE on their mechs. Something needs to be done to bring up the power level of IS mechs without removing how inherently powerful Clantech is. And right now other than IS AC weapons (single shell instead of multiple shells), nothing on the IS side performs better than what clan has to offer.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fobhopper, on 27 December 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Dual AC20 KGC would like a word with you.

No it wouldn't, because people are way more scared of an AS7-S than they are a dual AC20 KGC, just like they would a dual AC20 Atlas (if it were possible). SRMs are just flat out better for brawling compared to AC20s, even for short range poke lasers do a better job than AC20s.

[Y E O N N E]

Snazzy Dragon, on 27 December 2016 - 12:32 AM, said:

"He did math that's logical and made sense and provided examples, quick, don't take it seriously!"

He was talking about Viktor Drake, not me.

[Fobhopper]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

No it wouldn't, because people are way more scared of an AS7-S than they are a dual AC20 KGC, just like they would a dual AC20 Atlas (if it were possible). SRMs are just flat out better for brawling compared to AC20s, even for short range poke lasers do a better job than AC20s.

I take 2 AC20's and 2 SRM6's on my KGC's, roughly 66 instant (more or less) damage for not much heat and very little face time. You going to scoff at that withing 240m range? be my guest. Enjoy watching the rest of the match through your teammates cockpits because you dont think a KGC with 2 AC20's is scary.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Fobhopper, on 27 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

I take 2 AC20's and 2 SRM6's on my KGC's, roughly 66 instant (more or less) damage for not much heat and very little face time.

You know what does more damage than that at even less heat and less facetime (since I don't have to stagger fire to avoid ghost heat), an AC20 and 4 SRM6. Oh, and don't forget the AC20 and 4 SRM6 has more speed with a 350 STD because going less than that is abysmal for anything with an optimal range of 270m.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 10:00 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Reza Malin, on 27 December 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

This is an interesting idea. But then really what would be the point of having a standard engine at all? That's my only gripe.

Why take an STD when there's the cXL?


Same issue, it sucks balls in comparison
So, buff the STD, problem solved

[Angel of Annihilation]

Trollfeed, on 18 December 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

It never applied, clans always had better brawl builds because they get holy trinity of speed, firepower and durability. It's just that no one usually plays them because clan builds with better range are just so astoundingly good that it's rare for someone to even think about building a clan mech for pure brawling.

Many IS mechs just don't get the choice so brawlers is what we see.

Except it isn't a Trinity. It is a Square or Quad or whatever the word it for having four point instead of three. You forgot HEAT and Clan weapons cause tons of it.

[Fobhopper]

Viktor Drake, on 27 December 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Except it isn't a Trinity. It is a Square or Quad or whatever the word it for having four point instead of three. You forgot HEAT and Clan weapons cause tons of it.

And you forget that Clans can boat heatsinks all day long, increasing not only their heat cap well beyond that of IS mechs, but that also have superior heat dissipation. Even though clan weapons do generate more heat, when you can have 30 heatsinks in a direwolf and still take 6 LPL and easily out range and out damage IS mechs its not much of a contest.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yeonne Greene, on 19 December 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

You are not very good at this.

The 24 DHS the Clan build (assuming TBR with one S-torso) gives you has a heat-cap of 85.2. One shot from your alpha puts you at 51.6%.

The 20 DHS the IS 'Mech gives you (assuming BK) has a heat-cap of 78.0. One shot from your alpha puts you at 48.7%

Golly jee, near-enough-as-makes-no-difference! But wait, sonny, there's more!

The dissipation on the Clan build gives you a rate of 4.71. It takes 9.3 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

The dissipation on the IS build gives you a rate of 3.85. It takes 9.4 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

Hmmm, pretty close again! But we're not through yet!

If we drop the S-torso on the TBR and run no JJs (the BK doesn't get JJs anyway), we can fit in another two DHS, giving us a cap of 88.8 and a dissipation of 5.06. We now hit 49.5% on the first shot and get rid of the heat in 8.7 seconds...a whole 0.7 seconds faster.

And on top of having nearly identical soak ratio and dissipation rates, you get to start dealing your full damage a whole 150+ meters sooner! Because targeting computers and ER lasers! Yeah!

Now how about a build that actually competes in the same bracket, buddy?

7x cMPL
56 Damage
46.8 Heat

Same 26 DHS. 52.7% after firing, takes 9.2 seconds to dissipate completely. On top of this, you are dishing out 65.9 damage per second over the course of your burn, which is more than the 57.8 you get from your named IS build, and also more than the 64.4 you get from the 3xLPL+5xML build you would find on the BK in a real match. A BK which, by the way, runs 19 DHS, so it soaks to 53% in one shot and has to wait 10.6 seconds to fire again!


And you people wonder why the IS get heat gen quirks. It's because not only do they actually run just as hot for less damage and less range, they have to be able to fire more once they finally get in range to compensate for the damage they received on the way in.

This schooling session is now closed. Next time, do your homework before mouthing off.

Edit: Oh, and the BK has its hard-points at belly-button level. Enjoy!

Hmm. Nice break down and I absolutely agree with you and also want to thank you for proving my point. My point in the post you quoted is that Clan mechs have to mount more DHS, which takes up a significant amount of weight and crit slots, in order compensate for the extra heat their weapon generate and you made it very clear that this is the case.

Also what you point out seems pretty balanced to me A Clan mech takes 24 DHS to cool the same amount of fire power as an IS mech with 20 DHS so the Clan mech requires an investment of 4 more tons and 8 more slots to gain the same cooling. Start adding this up and suddenly the fact that Clan EndoSteel structure only requiries 7 slots and Clan LPLs weighing 1 ton less starts to make a whole lot a sense. I mean already that 4 extra DHS requirement has just totally wiped away the Clan weapons weight and endosteel structure slot advantage that Clans are suppose to have, imagine that.

Then of course you have to start factoring in other balancing mechanics like quirks, beam duration, single slug ACs and weapons in general that don't require IS mechs to expose themselves for as long as a typical Clan mech would have to, to output the same damage, etc which overall comes out to something sounding A LOT LIKE BALANCE to me.

Seriously, quit being stubborn and think about it for a minute. A Clan ER LL has a entire quarter second duration penalty over an IS ER LL. That is a quarter second where it has to just stand there exposed just waiting for someone to take a shot at it. Alot can happen in that quarter second. That might just be the time it takes for an enemy or two to drive home a Dual Guass, Dual PPC hit to its CT for 50 points of damage. This all adds up over time and probably adds up to your typical Clan mech taking 10-20% more damage on average than your average IS mech. There are tons of factors like this that don't show up in heat dissipation rates or weapons damage tables that absolutely need to be factored in yet people like you generally fail to either realize this or willfully decide to omit them in order to push their agenda.

IS and Clan mech are different and they are going to function in different ways. What people need to realize IS mechs will find themselves with the advantage in certain circumstances and Clan will find themselves at the advantage in others but overall, when you factor in all the circumstances, you have a fairly decent balance going on in the game. That is and always has been my point.

Oh and I am not Mouthing off. I am just trying to get people to see what is right in front of them by pointing out things they either aren't aware of or are unwilling to admit. You seem very intelligent so I guess I have to assume the later in your case.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 27 December 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[FupDup]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

You know what I would love? Since PGI picks and chose which Level of tech rules to use go back to level 1 with engines and ALL engines have 10 internal heat sinks. so I don't have to waste 3 tons of weight and 9 crit spaces to load DHS on my commando.

I agree with this idea, but note that you're not actually wasting tonnage. You're wasting slots for sure (which is still unfair), but not tonnage. The tonnage for your external sinks has already been subtracted from the tonnage of the engine itself. In this case, your engine is 3 tons lighter to account for the 3 Dubs you need.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Viktor Drake, on 27 December 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

A Clan mech takes 24 DHS to cool the same amount of fire power as an IS mech with 20 DHS so the Clan mech requires an investment of 4 more tons and 8 more slots to gain the same cooling.

You might want to double check your math, the Timby with 24 DHS (9 external DHS = 18 slots) actually uses the same amount of crits for DHS as a BK with 20 DHS (6 external DHS = 18 slots). If they had the same engine size sure, then the Timby would be down 2 criticals, but because of the extra weight savings it can pull off thanks to lighter weapons (BK uses 26 tons for its weapons, vs the 14-18 tons the Timby uses) and more compact weapons/equipment (cES/cFF takes the same amount of space as either iES or iFF) it can actually squeeze in a larger engine better than an IS mech could.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 11:10 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 27 December 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

~snip~

*whoosh*

The Clan 'Mech is not taking more to cool off the same amount of firepower unless you discount range as part of what comprises "firepower." The same amount of damage with greater range should never have access to the same cooling efficiency as its shorter-ranged counterpart, because then there is no point to running shorter ranged builds.

That's what should be plainly in front of you.

[mogs01gt]

Fobhopper, on 27 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

I take 2 AC20's and 2 SRM6's on my KGC's, roughly 66 instant (more or less) damage for not much heat and very little face time. You going to scoff at that withing 240m range? be my guest. Enjoy watching the rest of the match through your teammates cockpits because you dont think a KGC with 2 AC20's is scary.

and by the team you get into range to use those weapons, most of your team is gone because you've been hiding in the back instead of using those high mounted energy hard points.