78 replies to this topic

[Alan Davion]

rolly, on 20 December 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Soo... now that HBS is doing all the work for the animation cycles for CQB... do we now have hope that PGI will piggyback on this and put CQB into the game?

After all HBS is using their models right? Would it be entirely possible to reverse the process now with the animation done for them?

Never going to happen.

Why?

The two games are running on two entirely different engines.

MWO: Cryengine

Battletech: Unity

PGI would probably have to completely redo every mechs animations file in order for them to fit melee into the game. And we all know that PGI puts in the absolute minimum required work for anything that goes into the game.

[Weeny Machine]

[Mawai]

Stefan the Usurper Amaris, on 19 December 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

Few weeks? Try a few months or more. IF HBS BT turns out to be what everyone, certainly everyone, is looking for then you can bet that MWO will turn into the Tourmaline Desert.

As much as I am looking forward to HBS Battletech, and I am really looking forward to it since I like the board game, it is not the FPS Mechwarrior experience that many of the folks here are looking for.

BT has very cool animations. The melee looks awesome. However, keep in mind that you don't get to swing that punch ... all you do is issue orders to your units to move and fire, attacking with specified weapons (including melee if you are in range). The sections of the opponent hit are determined by the roll of the dice. Whether that melee attacks hits or misses ... hits the CT, an arm or the head ... are all determined by the dice. The same goes for weapon fire. Strategy is also different since it is turn based and you can "save up" movement to get two turns in a row by deferring movement. However, I can see folks trying to prevent this by also deferring their movement ... who gets to go last in this case?

The bottom line is that BT by HBS isn't the same type of game at all as MWO. The only common element is the feel, the battletech universe that is used as a back drop and the shared art assets. In the end, I suspect many folks will play both since the games are so fundamentally different.

I am just hoping that PGI can improve the balance, the skill rating system and the matchmaker in MWO (one can dream ).

[1453 R]

rolly, on 20 December 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Soo... now that HBS is doing all the work for the animation cycles for CQB... do we now have hope that PGI will piggyback on this and put CQB into the game?

After all HBS is using their models right? Would it be entirely possible to reverse the process now with the animation done for them?

Aside from the engine differences Alan mentioned, MWO's 'Mech models/animation skeletons aren't rigged for the range of motion needed for balls-out melee like this. HBS can do it more easily because they're a turn-based game, which takes 100% of the netcode load off and allows them to tailor their melee animations in ways MWO wouldn't be able to get away with. That Atlas wind-up Megaton Punch would never hit a damn thing in MWO, to say nothing of the netcode/hitreg nightmare that would be coding in kicks.

Melee in MWO is still likely only to happen, IF it happens, on 'Mechs with specific melee weapons, a'la Hatchetman/Berserker, which would have special animation rigs built to make use of the axe and only the axe as a melee strike. That's about all we can hope for on the MWO front, though MW5 may end up being a different story.

That said...

BNGJGJEHJBJEBJFBGREBE:JFNJEBNJFNLNQWENKWJJKW

NNNNNNNNNGH DOZ PUNCHES, BRUH.

I love the thought and detail that went into what seems like such a simple system. Push the 'Wreck Face' button and your pilot is expected to pick the most appropriate attack for the situation, with melee tuned to be fight-ending brutality rather than faffy shadowboxing. In short, push the button to wreck their face. Simply getting into melee range will be tricky though, with your biggest/best punchers also being your slowest and most vulnerable/valuable. Combined with the fact that the defender gets first chance at punch (you have to start the turn in fisting range, which means the guy who actively moves into range of melee strikes is vulnerable to being hit before he can do his hitting. Mage Knight problems all over again, which makes sense I suppose), and you have to be pretty canny to run fisty-focused 'Mechs and make them work.

Being able to tie light weapons into melee attacks could end up with entire new build types being workable in the game and offers an interesting incentive otherwise absent to tiny popguns nobody likes, to boot. If we had Chargers they'd actually make for really violent melee guys. That whole Firestarter 'melee' thing is hilarious. Could also potentially supplement 'Mechs with bad melee options with smaller guns to help give them some oomph if your unit ends up in fisticuffs a lot. That one's going to make for some hilariously awesome engagements.

The term 'brawler' will have an entirely different meaning in this game. I love it. Do want.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 December 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

I will be one who plays both, too - and im excited for the HBS game, though, if there is multiplayer (im not sure), i wont likely play it, i only really like mmos and FPS games for PvP. I do like PvP though, so ill likely play MWO more.

HBS's Battletech does have multiplayer skirmish. I also don't think I'll play multiplayer either, but who knows *shrug*.

[Alan Davion]

MeiSooHaityu, on 20 December 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

HBS's Battletech does have multiplayer skirmish. I also don't think I'll play multiplayer either, but who knows *shrug*.

We don't know a whole lot about their multiplayer yet, so for all we know they could implement a private match setup much like MWO has so you can get together with people from your unit here in MWO and have a good ol' faff about in HBS' BT game and have a good laugh trying to get into melee range and whatever.

Probably be a lot more hilarious than most matches in MWO these days.

[Mystere]

Stefan the Usurper Amaris, on 19 December 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

Few weeks? Try a few months or more. IF HBS BT turns out to be what everyone, certainly everyone, is looking for then you can bet that MWO will turn into the Tourmaline Desert.

"Tourmaline" implies gemstones -- as in something of value. As such, I doubt that was the impression you were making.

Karl Marlow, on 19 December 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

I need some alone time...

Ewwwww!!!!

Edited by Mystere, 20 December 2016 - 12:42 PM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Alan Davion, on 20 December 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

We don't know a whole lot about their multiplayer yet, so for all we know they could implement a private match setup much like MWO has so you can get together with people from your unit here in MWO and have a good ol' faff about in HBS' BT game and have a good laugh trying to get into melee range and whatever.

Probably be a lot more hilarious than most matches in MWO these days.

From what I understand. It will be a 1vs1 multiplayer (each opponent controlling one lance).

[Mystere]

Paigan, on 20 December 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

If you so totally lack the basic understanding of kinetic energy and area of impact, etc. (and to counter all the naive "it's just fiction" buffoons), consider this simple scenario:
A knight in full armor punches another knight in full armor.
Damage done? Zero.
The punched knight would just stand there and be like "Cool story, bro. Why not use your sword, lol."

Really? Now "punch" a knight's helmet with a "metal ball on a stick" and see what happens.

[SWANN]

Paigan, on 20 December 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

My god, this is SO cheesy.
[Redacted]

Bipedal war tanks PUNCHING each other? Are you serious?
Why not just shoot the enemy Mech?

And as a funny little bonus:
If the tech used for the armor can withstand multiple hits from a gauss or jumps/falls from many meters height, what do you think a PUNCH would do on it? Exactely NOTHING. NOTHING.

If you so totally lack the basic understanding of kinetic energy and area of impact, etc. (and to counter all the naive "it's just fiction" buffoons), consider this simple scenario:
A knight in full armor punches another knight in full armor.
Damage done? Zero.
The punched knight would just stand there and be like "Cool story, bro. Why not use your sword, lol."


Sometimes I get the impression I'm the only adult around here.

Maybe you should re-read this tantrum in post form and then ask yourself if you're being an adult or a pedantic idiot. The very concept of bipedal tanks is absurd, but you're hung up on the melee combat? Get some perspective and then maybe try growing up a little.

Edited by draiocht, 02 January 2017 - 11:46 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Juodas Varnas]

Mystere, on 20 December 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

Really? Now "punch" a knight's helmet with a "metal ball on a stick" and see what happens.

Or better yet, THROW THE POMMEL! End him rightly!

[Michael Knell]

Juodas Varnas, on 20 December 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Or better yet, THROW THE POMMEL! End him rightly!

No man, just no. You know full well what happens when a pommel gets thrown - ****** nukullar apocalypse. Think of all the baby seals.

Say hello to Skallagrim next time you see him, btw...

[rolly]

Alan Davion, on 20 December 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

MWO: Cryengine

Battletech: Unity

PGI would probably have to completely redo every mechs animations file in order for them to fit melee into the game. And we all know that PGI puts in the absolute minimum required work for anything that goes into the game.

Thanks for the clarification.

There was minimal hope in that question, but I found it curious that essentially their "work" was done for them.

And to correct you, the absolute minimum work is put anything in to make a minimally viable product, EXCEPT when they want to make a mech to call their own. Then they pull out all the stops and get a rush job on Lore written in a week, with posters and swag t-shirts all over the place for MechCon. Meanwhile they dump a bucket load of mostly canon Hero mechs with absolutely no reference to Lore, despite over 30 years Lore right there waiting for them to copy and paste.

[rolly]

Lily from animove, on 20 December 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:

literally impossible to stomp around pew pewing in robots without the inner child.



our iron wombs are technically more clean than your moms uterus ever was

Hear hear on the Inner Child bit.

As for the other bit. THAT should be on a t-shirt sold at MechCon2017, or an official taunt built into MWO like Wing Command 2 etc..

"My womb is cleaner than yours!"

[Unreliable Mercenary]

Bud Crue, on 19 December 2016 - 05:36 PM, said:

Man, that game is looking better and better.
This place is going to be barren of population for at least a few weeks after BT drops.

It's turn based, can play it between queue waits! Double MW action.

[rolly]

Paigan, on 20 December 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

If you so totally lack the basic understanding of kinetic energy and area of impact, etc. (and to counter all the naive "it's just fiction" buffoons), consider this simple scenario:
A knight in full armor punches another knight in full armor.
Damage done? Zero.
The punched knight would just stand there and be like "Cool story, bro. Why not use your sword, lol."

Oh dear, you may want to review your "theory" on punching. Because it sounds like no one taught you how to punch, or you've ever been punched.

To use your example, said target would be off balance if not on his ***, regardless of the damage caused. Meanwhile the other knight would be stomping on his faceplate, kicking him while he's down or jamming a dagger into a joint.

Or get a friend to put a bucket on your head and have him wallop you. Let's see how that "zero damage" feels. If you want to use the "adult" card, you must have missed general physics 101.

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Knell, on 20 December 2016 - 08:06 AM, said:

First, your knight analogy is not only stupid, but wrong on many levels.

A knight in a full set of plate armor is not going to use a sword to kill another knight in full set of plate, unless he really had to. He would use a weapon like a mace or a warhammer, but the most used weapon to kill a knight is a poleaxe. When plate armor started being the norm for knights and most of the men-at-arms, swords were relegated to sidearms. Used only when you lost the main weapon aka poleaxe. Even then you would not hack at the armor, but try to pierce the gaps in armor or use the quilons and pommel of the sword as a makeshift blunt weapon (I mention blunt weapons because judging by what you wrote earlier you're of a general opinion sword cut through full plate armor as in anime you mentioned yourself).

So TL;DR - in real life hitting a knight in full plate with an armored fist is going to be more effective than hitting him with a blade of the sword because of more blunt force being distributed through armor and a chance of staggering the opponent is greater than when hitting him with a sword.


Second, which is connected to what I wrote above about knights fighting in full plate armor, when a mech punches another one as shown in the gifs posted here, you see them move the whole body during the strike, so you're having that whole mass moving forward with the force concentrated on a surface of the fist which is a few square meters. That is a lot of force being concentrated to a relatively small surface, enough to not only stagger the enemy, but induce gyro overload or even tear components and armor apart. Especially when a mech hits a target that has less mass. Mind you such attacks also damage the mech performing the melee strikes.

would state that Polearms were less effective in an actual close melee, because of their length. But then, that's what military picks, axes, etc were for. Among other options.

For unhorsing a knight, and poking him while he's down? Gimme the poleaxe... once he's in my grill, a nice pick will do. (Or punch dagger, if really close)

This was my killer of choice in the SCA, for 2 decades

Cleavy and pokey all in one package.

[Michael Knell]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2016 - 10:21 PM, said:

would state that Polearms were less effective in an actual close melee, because of their length. But then, that's what military picks, axes, etc were for. Among other options.

For unhorsing a knight, and poking him while he's down? Gimme the poleaxe... once he's in my grill, a nice pick will do. (Or punch dagger, if really close)

Well, I don't know, poleaxes are pretty effective in melee and basic techniques for poleaxes are basically the same ones taught for longsword half-swording.

[Bishop Steiner]

Michael Knell, on 27 December 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

Well, I don't know, poleaxes are pretty effective in melee and basic techniques for poleaxes are basically the same ones taught for longsword half-swording.

yet there is also a reason a goodly number of pikesman, etc, carried a bottle mace, too. Because once you smelled each others breath, half swording was less effective too. Almost every weapon has it's place, it's just that the prefect weapon for every situation has never been invented.