234 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Assuming equal player skill, one would assume that the light pilot could stay behind the back of the Dire, especially.#

Sorry, i am biased here i should admit - i dont like lights (im not saying i think they are OP, just that i dont like the playstyle), and i think PGI should just admit tonnage = effectiveness.

In a single combat situation, most players would expect a single competently piloted light to defeat a single competently piloted Whale, irrespective of armament. It may take more or less time overall, but well-built lights are usually expected to be the foils to well-built fatbros, which are otherwise expected to dominate the game.

Tonnage =/= effectiveness. It's one way of doing so, but the lighter end of the spectrum deserves its chance, too. If only because there's just as many folks out there who prefer the light playstyle and hate the lard-hauling cement-footed assault fatbro playstyle and wish Piranha would just admit that mobility = effectiveness, ne?

[Y E O N N E]

TercieI, on 21 December 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

It has an engine bigger than a LCT's maximum (200>190) before MASC. You may not understand the appeal, but your facts are just wrong on speeds.

The Locust is kept artificially low by PGI. Cap shoukd be 225 using their multiplier for determining engine cap for lights (1.4x stock, round up).

[TercieI]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

The Locust is kept artificially low by PGI. Cap shoukd be 225 using their multiplier for determining engine cap for lights (1.4x stock, round up).

I'm aware. But the fact doesn't change that in this game, the Firemoth will be faster. If they want to up the LCT to a 200 cap, that would be fine with me, but honestly anything past that would be useless because it would cost too much in weight and crits to build well (it's tight with a 190 already, as I'm sure you know).

[Y E O N N E]

TercieI, on 21 December 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

I'm aware. But the fact doesn't change that in this game, the Firemoth will be faster. If they want to up the LCT to a 200 cap, that would be fine with me, but honestly anything past that would be useless because it would cost too much in weight and crits to build well (it's tight with a 190 already, as I'm sure you know).

Your reply was to a post about the Flea, though, so I thought you were talking about the Flea, not the Firemoth.

[TercieI]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 December 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Your reply was to a post about the Flea, though, so I thought you were talking about the Flea, not the Firemoth.

Oh. Whoops. That's what I get for tuning in and out. Yeah, I'll take the Flea but mostly under the banner of "any light." I'm actively excited the Firemoth.

[197mmCannon]

I know the light pilots are giddy as hell over a new mech but let's not lose sight of the big picture. The clan deck nerf was put there for a reason and letting people run two kodiaks and 2 op lights (assuming the new mech ends up being as op as everyone is claiming it will) isn't much of a nerf.

Maybe it's time to unlock streak 4's for the IS.

[RestosIII]

197mmCannon, on 21 December 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

I know the light pilots are giddy as hell over a new mech but let's not lose sight of the big picture. The clan deck nerf was put there for a reason and letting people run two kodiaks and 2 op lights (assuming the new mech ends up being as op as everyone is claiming it will) isn't much of a nerf.

Maybe it's time to unlock streak 4's for the IS.

OP light mech. God, I haven't heard that in a long time outside of salty Assault pilots. You've made me even more giddy and excited for this release.

[197mmCannon]

I don't want to get into a silly argument over the viability of light mechs. But a well played light mech can be deadly as hell while a poorly played light mech is garbage. A poorly played assault is just as terrible.

And I have been ***** in an assault by a single locust that stood under me and I couldn't see him no matter what I did and I have also gotten a one hit kill with a lucky guass shot off on a running locust. Light mechs are very high risk high reward. I get that.

My point is simply that this entire subject started because of the 240 drop deck and we need to be careful that balance isn't jacked further. Let's not lose sight of the big picture.

[RestosIII]

197mmCannon, on 21 December 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

My point is simply that this entire subject started because of the 240 drop deck and we need to be careful that balance isn't jacked further. Let's not lose sight of the big picture.

No it didn't. A lot of people have been asking for new light mechs, especially Clan light mechs, for a long time now. And the 20 tonner slot is one that I've personally wanted filled for a good while. Hell, I don't even play FW/CW. so don't go slapping drop deck tonnage levels onto this as to why we want them.

[1453 R]

197mmCannon, on 21 December 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

I know the light pilots are giddy as hell over a new mech but let's not lose sight of the big picture. The clan deck nerf was put there for a reason and letting people run two kodiaks and 2 op lights (assuming the new mech ends up being as op as everyone is claiming it will) isn't much of a nerf.

Maybe it's time to unlock streak 4's for the IS.

You'll find that most (reasonable) Clan players are all for releasing not only the iSSRM-4, but also the iSSRM-6. And the iUAC/2(/10/20), and the iLBX/2(/5/20). And the iERSL and iERML. And also in many cases the MRM line of warheads, the Binary Laser, the light Gauss, and a number of other less problematical bits of level 3 kit. Usually as a start.

Most of us want the Sphere to get all its stuff, because we want to play with that stuff on occasion too, and also because it'd make for both a much more fair and level and a much more interesting playing field.

That and citing "no 20-tonners for jOO!" as a balancing concern is crap. if you want to avoid dual Kodiak drop decks, then cut the tonnage to 235 after introducing a 20-tonner so Clan players can have the same degree of fine control over their drop decks as Sphere guys do. Or just simply state outright "one Kodiak per deck" while they work on finishing their task of ensuring that nobody ever wants to pilot a Kodiak again.

The Clans deserve at least one 'Mech at all valid weight points the same as the Sphere guys have. Then they deserve Sphere opponents with level 3 stuff tweaked out to fight them properly. No SuperMegaUltraQuirks turning level 1 GarboTech into horrible Jekyll & Hyde monstrosities. Proper level 2 and 3 equivalents to level 2 Clan stuff, then adjust level 1 to carve out its own low opportunity cost/easy-to-use niche beneath the higher-spec, higher-fiddlyness L2 and L3 stuff.

That's the way to go.

[Gas Guzzler]

Battlemaster56, on 21 December 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

I mean unless the assualt is beyond the level of potato then that would be true, but mostly the assault pilot try to save his back at all cost and trying to twist as much damage as possible.

Ehh if you are in a Pokebear you will probably have a gauss go boom before you have a chance to have a meaningful reaction.

[RestosIII]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 December 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Ehh if you are in a Pokebear you will probably have a gauss go boom before you have a chance to have a meaningful reaction.

So... Kodiak-3 problem fixed wthout nerfing other Kodiaks, while light mech pilots get a mech they can enjoy finally? Sounds like a win-win to me!

Edited by RestosIII, 21 December 2016 - 09:14 AM.

[CK16]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 December 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Ehh if you are in a Pokebear you will probably have a gauss go boom before you have a chance to have a meaningful reaction.

Arm Gauss is best Gauss >.> Long live the....

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 December 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Ehh if you are in a Pokebear you will probably have a gauss go boom before you have a chance to have a meaningful reaction.

If a light 'Mech manages to get behind a Brodiak and start ripping into its rear plating before the Brodiak or any of its escorts notice the thing and take steps, then either that light pilot is boss as hell and might mebbe deserve to harvest his Gauss, or the Brodiak's team was only recently pulled out of the vegetable patch and will have to learn the hard way what happens when you let light 'Mechs get all up in yo' buttgrill.

Either way. Brodiaks being unable to properly react to twigweights kidney-punching their rear bits is not a balance issue or cause for not releasing twigweights.

[JediPanther]

As long as the light moves 150+ kph and can carry 3-4 med lasers that's all that really matters. Urbie does in a new play date but not one going 32kph stock. Bonus if it changes shape into a half mech half jet and moves through the air.

[Bandilly]

197mmCannon, on 21 December 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

The clan deck nerf was put there for a reason and letting people run two kodiaks and 2 op lights (assuming the new mech ends up being as op as everyone is claiming it will) isn't much of a nerf.

Even if they announce the most op 20 ton light ever we still have 4 months between the announcement and the release of said mech.

I personally could really use a 20 tonner to fix my new drop deck (sub ACH for said light to shed those 10 tons) , but again, that fix is over 4 months out.

[Tordin]

I say it again mend the hearts of metal cousins in arms! Cant believe the fella that designed the Flea meant it was to similar!
Its like saying the Firestarter looks to similar to the Arctic Cheetah (yeah I know the tonnage difference, just an example) because of their similar humanoid shape. IMO at least.



The flea can have more weapons, higher mounts, smaller overall profile, but also slower and it coould have less torso twisting to compensate even more.



Found this gem too

Edited by Tordin, 21 December 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[1453 R]

Tordin, on 21 December 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

...
The flea can have more weapons, higher mounts, smaller overall profile, but also slower and it coould have less torso twisting to compensate even more.

The Flea actually can't have a smaller overall profile than the Locust. At least, not to any degree that matters. They're both 20-ton cricket-shaped twigweights with very similar body styles and weapons mounts. Standardized volumetric scaling like we have now means they'd be pretty much dot-on the same size, mostly the same shape, and do the same things except the Flea would do them vastly more slowly.

I really wish I could find that old post of mine where I did the math on how M.A.S.C. actually doesn't help the Flea for spit against the Locust w/an actual bigger engine...maybe I'll do some more fruitless forum searching in an attempt to find it, it was really useful...

EDIT: AH HAH! Tracked it down! Here ya go!

1453 R, on 16 June 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

Ahhh, but there's other factors in play which cement the fact that the Flea is awful!

For one, the Flea comes stock with a STD 120-rated engine. Now, a 120-rated engine requires six external heat sinks, which means that the stock build is pretty much flat incapable of utilizing both Endo and Ferro. Taking into account 10% speed increase from M.A.S.C. and using the Lolcust as a base, looks like an engine rating of 170 is about as high as it can get. Let's assume for a moment that PGI is generous and gives the Flea a 175 top rating. W/M.A.S.C. and Tweak, that yields a maximum theoretical top speed of 171.5, which is riding the upper bleeding edge of hat HSR can (theoretically) handle. How much does that weigh?

175XL: 5.5t
M.A.S.C. I: 1t
3x external HS: 3t
-9.5t total for 171kph in short bursts, 155 by default.

You do get bursts of truly physics-defying accel/decel when M.A.S.C. is up, but I honestly doubt people could really handle that level of performance. Not without crack-fueled Unreal Tournament skills, at least.

Now, moving over to the Locust:

190XL - 6t
3x external HS - 3t
-9t total for permanent 169.3kph.

You lose two KPH total from the Flea w/best engine the devs could possibly give it, but net an extra half-ton - which is, as any Locust/Commando pilot will tell you, a big damn deal at this point. The Locust gets accel/decel quirks which more or less give it M.A.S.C. by default, it doesn't have any chance of breaking its own legs unless it takes belly flops off of Mount Doom, and it has at least two variants which do everything the Flea does weapons-wise as well.

Now, the argument is that the Flea could use its M.A.S.C. to downgrade its engine to, say, a 150 and then use M.A.S.C. to make up the advantage, thus taking bigger weapons. A'ight, let's do that.

150XL: 4t
M.A.S.C: 1t
4 external HS: 4t
-9t total, 133.6kph default footspeed, 147kph M.A.S.C. max speed. Nine tons for 147kph in short spurts. The Locust uses the exact same nine tons to hit 169.3 permanent footspeed. No armament weight gained.

IN FACT! You actually lose armament weight in most cases. A Locust w/190XL, Endo, Ferro, and DHS has 8 slots left for weapons. A Flea, forced to carry four external DHS as well as M.A.S.C., would have four slots for non-required, non-structural gear. This is not sufficient for most of the heavy-gunz builds people would want on the Flea, necessitating the loss of Ferro armor. This cuts an extra ~half-ton (0.46t, assuming maximum armor and thus maximum weight savings) from your free weight, meaning you're essentially paying 9.5t for your 150XL build.

You pay the exact same tonnage for a 150XL build that you do for a 175XL build. To get significantly poorer performance.

Why?

Now sure, the math gets somewhat better below a 150 engine rating - droping down to a 145XL w/extra heat sink nets you back that half-ton you lose to STD armor, but at that point you're carrying 5+ external heat sinks which cuts significant;y into your heat management due to the TruDubs issue, and you're still paying the same 9t for your increasingly slow 20-tonner. In fact, the only place where smaller engine+M.A.S.C. starts pulling ahead?

125XL: 2t
M.A.S.C.: 1t
5 external DHS: 5t
Ferro pentalty: 0.5t
-8.5t total; the first time the Flea w/M.A.S.C. has pulled ahead of the Locust. It does so by going 111.4kph, before M.A.S.C.. It is all of five klicks faster than its stock top speed of 106.9, a speed which 'Mechs three times its size can, and do, easily reach or exceed.

You would be a 20-ton 'Mech moving at the same speeds as a STORMCROW, with a one-fifth uptime of moving eleven KPH faster than that and having accel/decel 'bonuses' which the Locust matches by dint of having quirks and also an engine seventy points higher-rated, and your reward for all this M.A.S.C. Math and engine finagling?

An extra half-ton of equipment weight over a bog-standard 190XL Locust.

And Locusts aren't even that good.

WHY do people want the Flea, again? It's ugly, it's categorically worse than the Locust, and it's not even cute or possessed of a storied history like the UrbanMech. I mean, really...just let the poor thing sit in its forgotten corner in peace.

Edited by 1453 R, 21 December 2016 - 10:21 AM.

[L3mming2]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Just saying, they should not release the Piranha.

Its basically not possible to prevent stacking identical heatless weapons exponentially increasing their effectiveness, and as such in any balance where 4xMGs is anything other than complete crap, 12xMGs will be OMGWTFOP. It might be ammo limited, but i dont want to see a 20 ton mech dropping an Atlas in 3-4 seconds, ever.

6 CSPL do have a dps of 12 (before CD modules CD skill and (if there are anny..) quirks). this damage is front loaded as well so the actual DPS on the end of the 3d alpha is 16... (108 damage is more then enough to core out anny mech from behind)..

if u look at it like that a 12MG (12dps) light whit damage boost due to crits, and a 16 dps CSPL light... the TTK with a back stabing light will remain similar ..

[L3mming2]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

So that was slightly hyperbolic, sorry. However:

12 dps. forever until it runs out of ammo. Plus crit damage.. so, lets take a Dire or Kodiak, which is going to have 10 or less back armour and 62 IS for the CT. Thats 72 total HP, so 6 seconds, assuming its pristine and there are no crits, from the crit guns.. so realistically killing 100 ton mechs for 0 heat in 5 or less seconds.

if u take that exact senario a 6CSPL light with no quirks/ modules/ and cd skill.
can do it in 3.75s... 36 + 36 = 72 ...

with cd module and cd skill the 6CSPL light can do it in 3.3675s ...

and IMO its way easyer to land 2 spl alphas then to hold MG's on target for 5s... (atleast when the target is trying to resist..)

ps; curently good light pilots are so far in between i run 2 to 6 back armor on most of my mechs...
if there would be a reason to ad 12 armor to the back (to get a full extra second if a pirania gets u by suprise) that would be a good thing IMO..

Edited by L3mming2, 21 December 2016 - 11:11 AM.