234 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

1453 R, on 21 December 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

If a light 'Mech manages to get behind a Brodiak and start ripping into its rear plating before the Brodiak or any of its escorts notice the thing and take steps, then either that light pilot is boss as hell and might mebbe deserve to harvest his Gauss, or the Brodiak's team was only recently pulled out of the vegetable patch and will have to learn the hard way what happens when you let light 'Mechs get all up in yo' buttgrill.

Either way. Brodiaks being unable to properly react to twigweights kidney-punching their rear bits is not a balance issue or cause for not releasing twigweights.

This is not that hard to as a light pilot. I also never said it was a balance issue or a reason to not release the light. So....?

[L3mming2]

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Assuming equal player skill, one would assume that the light pilot could stay behind the back of the Dire, especially.#

Sorry, i am biased here i should admit - i dont like lights (im not saying i think they are OP, just that i dont like the playstyle), and i think PGI should just admit tonnage = effectiveness.

if the dire whent in to a wide open space without support yes...

if the dire had anny common sence and stayed close to cover wile moving up (not just for ennemy lights but for LRM cover if necesary as well..) it just has to reverce turn his back in to the solid cover , cry for help from the team to chase the light of, or if the light was stupid enoug to try and dig out the assault. just vaporise it when it crosses your sights ...

[1453 R]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 December 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

This is not that hard to as a light pilot. I also never said it was a balance issue or a reason to not release the light. So....?

Mostly pointing out that some folks would take your comment as a reason why things like Fire Moths or Piranhas or whatever shouldn't be released; the whole "My assault 'Mech shouldn't be easy for one stupid screwball in a Locust to kill! " crowd and such.

I'd love to know what these people think should be able to kill their assault 'Mechs, and how they figure balance works if the fattest of fatbros are supposed to have no natural enemies or predators. Also why they're playing Clan machines if they want assault 'Mechs capable of dueling with light 'Mechs. Urrbuddy knows you need Sphere assaults for that kind of thing, not Clan ones.

Edited by 1453 R, 21 December 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[L3mming2]

1453 R, on 21 December 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

You'll find that most (reasonable) Clan players are all for releasing not only the iSSRM-4, but also the iSSRM-6. And the iUAC/2(/10/20), and the iLBX/2(/5/20). And the iERSL and iERML. And also in many cases the MRM line of warheads, the Binary Laser, the light Gauss, and a number of other less problematical bits of level 3 kit. Usually as a start.

Most of us want the Sphere to get all its stuff, because we want to play with that stuff on occasion too, and also because it'd make for both a much more fair and level and a much more interesting playing field.

That and citing "no 20-tonners for jOO!" as a balancing concern is crap. if you want to avoid dual Kodiak drop decks, then cut the tonnage to 235 after introducing a 20-tonner so Clan players can have the same degree of fine control over their drop decks as Sphere guys do. Or just simply state outright "one Kodiak per deck" while they work on finishing their task of ensuring that nobody ever wants to pilot a Kodiak again.

The Clans deserve at least one 'Mech at all valid weight points the same as the Sphere guys have. Then they deserve Sphere opponents with level 3 stuff tweaked out to fight them properly. No SuperMegaUltraQuirks turning level 1 GarboTech into horrible Jekyll & Hyde monstrosities. Proper level 2 and 3 equivalents to level 2 Clan stuff, then adjust level 1 to carve out its own low opportunity cost/easy-to-use niche beneath the higher-spec, higher-fiddlyness L2 and L3 stuff.

That's the way to go.

its not going to happen but i would be happy if it douse.. one can hope ofc..

[Alan Davion]

1453 R, on 21 December 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Mostly pointing out that some folks would take your comment as a reason why things like Fire Moths or Piranhas or whatever shouldn't be released; the whole "My assault 'Mech shouldn't be easy for one stupid screwball in a Locust to kill! " crowd and such.

I'd love to know what these people think should be able to kill their assault 'Mechs, and how they figure balance works if the fattest of fatbros are supposed to have no natural enemies or predators. Also why they're playing Clan machines if they want assault 'Mechs capable of dueling with light 'Mechs. Urrbuddy knows you need Sphere assaults for that kind of thing, not Clan ones.

Near as I can figure out, these specific people operate under the delusion of "bigger is better, so this 100 ton Atlas/Dire Wolf/Kodiak shouldn't have any natural enemies", and they never bother to really understand the 4-way "rock-paper-scissors" that this game has much in the way World of Warships operates with their 4 classes.

Sort of goes back to the whole CoD generation. In that game it's easy to just charge on in guns blazing. In this game not so much, but these people can't quite get that through their heads.

[1453 R]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Near as I can figure out, these specific people operate under the delusion of "bigger is better, so this 100 ton Atlas/Dire Wolf/Kodiak shouldn't have any natural enemies", and they never bother to really understand the 4-way "rock-paper-scissors" that this game has much in the way World of Warships operates with their 4 classes.

Sort of goes back to the whole CoD generation. In that game it's easy to just charge on in guns blazing. In this game not so much, but these people can't quite get that through their heads.

The interesting/sad thing is that there are (supposed to be) assaults that are significantly less vulnerable to lights than your typical Whale/AtlAss/Brodiak MegaFatness. Your Executioners, your Victors, your Gargoyles...the "baggy coat heavy" category of more-mobile assaults that Piranha keeps shafting every time you turn around.

The tradeoff for those is supposed to be that those assaults are much better against the lower end of the weight spectrum, lights and fast mediums and such, in exchange for sacrificing much of a more archetypical assault 'Mech's ability to crush enemy heavies and wage war against other assaults. They basically act like heavies with extra plating, the same way things like Vipers or Cicadas act like lights with extra plating, or things like Dragons, Quickdraws, and Linebackers act like mediums with extra plating. All of them have less firepower than an actual tier-appropriate 'Mech of their mobility profile (executioners have less firepower than TBRs or Night Gyrs or whatever, Linebackers have less firepower by a LOT than Stormcrows, Vipers/Cicadas have less firepower than equivalent light 'mechs), but they have extra sticking power that lets them hound their two-tiers-down prey pretty savagely.

I love that particular breed of 'Mech; the Linebacker is the only Clan version I don't have and the only 'Mech pack I even faintly regret not getting, but both the playerbase as a whole and Piranha in specific have a huge hate-on for those types of machine and frequently get them VTR-Giganerfed into complete impotence.

And then they wonder why their MegaFatness gunbags are rendered highly vulnerable to on-point lights. You folks are the ones who hate mobility-emphasized versions of any given weight class; that means Locusts get to eat you. Deal w/it.

[C E Dwyer]

Tarogato, on 20 December 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

The Commando went 171.1 kph. As far as I understand, PGI's netcode degrades with speed - it's not like you hit a barrier and suddenly hitreg is borked, it just gradually gets worse the faster you go, and back in open beta, PGI determined that 170-some kph was about the limit where they felt comfortable. Keep in mind this was back in open beta. Now we have improved HSR, new regional servers, and probably some other miscellaneous minor improvements.


So if MWO could handle a 171.1 kph Commando in the past, it should be able to handle a 174.2 kph Fire Moth right now.

And keep in mind, the Fire Moth is probably the only mech that will ever be released into the game to use Clan MASC Mk.1, so PGI could even tune Clan MASC Mk.1 to have a 0% speed boost without affecting any other mechs, and the Fire Moth would still go 174.2 kph, and get the benefits of MASC acceleration that blow the Locust out of the water.


PGI, make it so!

So your saying the firemoth, is a mist lynx reaching for top shelf material ?

[Alan Davion]

1453 R, on 21 December 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

The interesting/sad thing is that there are (supposed to be) assaults that are significantly less vulnerable to lights than your typical Whale/AtlAss/Brodiak MegaFatness. Your Executioners, your Victors, your Gargoyles...the "baggy coat heavy" category of more-mobile assaults that Piranha keeps shafting every time you turn around.

The tradeoff for those is supposed to be that those assaults are much better against the lower end of the weight spectrum, lights and fast mediums and such, in exchange for sacrificing much of a more archetypical assault 'Mech's ability to crush enemy heavies and wage war against other assaults. They basically act like heavies with extra plating, the same way things like Vipers or Cicadas act like lights with extra plating, or things like Dragons, Quickdraws, and Linebackers act like mediums with extra plating. All of them have less firepower than an actual tier-appropriate 'Mech of their mobility profile (executioners have less firepower than TBRs or Night Gyrs or whatever, Linebackers have less firepower by a LOT than Stormcrows, Vipers/Cicadas have less firepower than equivalent light 'mechs), but they have extra sticking power that lets them hound their two-tiers-down prey pretty savagely.

I love that particular breed of 'Mech; the Linebacker is the only Clan version I don't have and the only 'Mech pack I even faintly regret not getting, but both the playerbase as a whole and Piranha in specific have a huge hate-on for those types of machine and frequently get them VTR-Giganerfed into complete impotence.

And then they wonder why their MegaFatness gunbags are rendered highly vulnerable to on-point lights. You folks are the ones who hate mobility-emphasized versions of any given weight class; that means Locusts get to eat you. Deal w/it.

I honestly couldn't have said it better, and completely agree with you.

This is why we need to convince PGI to scrap all the balance changes they've made since day one and implement a true BV system so that everyone can properly gauge a mechs effectiveness.

See my post here for my look on the BV system.

[1453 R]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

I honestly couldn't have said it better, and completely agree with you.

This is why we need to convince PGI to scrap all the balance changes they've made since day one and implement a true BV system so that everyone can properly gauge a mechs effectiveness.

See my post here for my look on the BV system.

The problem is that absolutely no one trusts Piranha even the remotest little bit to get the actual numerical values for a Battle Value system correct. If they do it manually, then there are literally thousands of individual values, combination values, synergy values, or whatever else they'd have to constantly tweak and get to within a hair's breadth at the widest of perfection for the system to work any damn better than what we've got now.

Some folks have proposed a strictly usage-based BV, wherein the only value calculated is "how often is this 'Mech/weapon/whatever used?" This is akin to Smogon's Pokemon tiering system, where there's no discrete 'Battle Value', but instead different tiers consisting of 'Overused', 'Underused', 'Rarely Used', and so on and so forth. Usage is the best metric for determining the overall viability of a particular thing; if the thing is being used a whole lot by a lot of players, then it's probably fair to say that said thing is more valuable than a thing only occasionally used by a small subset of players.

That would be easier to automate, but when we get into automated balancing solutions we get into the whole Great Embiggening issue that sunk pretty much the entirety of the Sphere light 'Mech category and how to avoid similar Balance Equations that spit out answers which make no damn sense to anyone.

If we're not going with usage-based 'BV' - which, by the way, is still just slapping an artificial bandaid on bad balance - then we're mostly just SOL. Or rather, we need to do what players have wanted from the start and actually spend a few months' patch cycles on game/tech balance rather than New Shinies or Commodity Warfare Phase 37,681 or Deckles 2.0 or whatever.

We've got Skilltrees 1.0 coming up in a couple of months. This sounds like a fantastic time to spend 2017 spring/summer doubling down on our efforts to clean up inter-tech balance, dunnit?

...oh. Also, on-topic: release the Fire Moth. I would like to pilot it someday, even if I'm still super-duper mad over FutureTech and cannot guarantee any more 'Mech pack sales from me for a while. I still have C-bills, and could spend them on Fire moths...y'know, ten months from now...>_>

[Alan Davion]

1453 R, on 21 December 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

The problem is that absolutely no one trusts Piranha even the remotest little bit to get the actual numerical values for a Battle Value system correct. If they do it manually, then there are literally thousands of individual values, combination values, synergy values, or whatever else they'd have to constantly tweak and get to within a hair's breadth at the widest of perfection for the system to work any damn better than what we've got now.

Some folks have proposed a strictly usage-based BV, wherein the only value calculated is "how often is this 'Mech/weapon/whatever used?" This is akin to Smogon's Pokemon tiering system, where there's no discrete 'Battle Value', but instead different tiers consisting of 'Overused', 'Underused', 'Rarely Used', and so on and so forth. Usage is the best metric for determining the overall viability of a particular thing; if the thing is being used a whole lot by a lot of players, then it's probably fair to say that said thing is more valuable than a thing only occasionally used by a small subset of players.

That would be easier to automate, but when we get into automated balancing solutions we get into the whole Great Embiggening issue that sunk pretty much the entirety of the Sphere light 'Mech category and how to avoid similar Balance Equations that spit out answers which make no damn sense to anyone.

If we're not going with usage-based 'BV' - which, by the way, is still just slapping an artificial bandaid on bad balance - then we're mostly just SOL. Or rather, we need to do what players have wanted from the start and actually spend a few months' patch cycles on game/tech balance rather than New Shinies or Commodity Warfare Phase 37,681 or Deckles 2.0 or whatever.

We've got Skilltrees 1.0 coming up in a couple of months. This sounds like a fantastic time to spend 2017 spring/summer doubling down on our efforts to clean up inter-tech balance, dunnit?

...oh. Also, on-topic: release the Fire Moth. I would like to pilot it someday, even if I'm still super-duper mad over FutureTech and cannot guarantee any more 'Mech pack sales from me for a while. I still have C-bills, and could spend them on Fire moths...y'know, ten months from now...>_>

Once again, very well said, particularly the two parts I put into bold.

Because PGI themselves have continually f***ed up from day 1, it's entirely incumbent on them to bite the bullet, knuckle the f*** down and say "Okay, enough screwing around, it's time to fix s*** once and for all."

Skill Trees 1.0 is the first real evidence I've seen of them actually G** D*** TRYING TO FIX SOMETHING in the game, that, along with the MW5:M trailer actually got me to UPDATE my game which I hadn't done in months, maybe something like a year at this point.

However, I have not yet actually tried to play the game yet because I know until Skill Trees 1.0 actually comes out, it's going to be the same s*** gameplay that drove me away in the first place.

PGI has to know that at some point sooner rather than later, the well is going to dry up because people are f***ing sick and tired of the same s*** gameplay that's been plaguing the game on and off for years.

Unless they spend some serious time doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE but actual, core mechanic fixes for the game, people are eventually going to get it through their heads that PGI is doing NOTHING but shoving mechs down our throats to keep us quiet.

At that point, their revenue stream for further development of the game dries up and it's time to shut not only this game down, but that also kills MW5:M, which by the look of it is going to be a lot more fun than MWO for a lot of people.

The question is how long would it take for people to close their wallets permanently and send a real shock to PGI's system?

[Gas Guzzler]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

However, I have not yet actually tried to play the game yet because I know until Skill Trees 1.0 actually comes out, it's going to be the same s*** gameplay that drove me away in the first place.

It sounds like you aren't going to be satisfied until MW5 comes out. Don't see how Skill Trees is going to fix something that quirks couldn't, there is actually a higher chance that balance will be worse after the skill trees drop, at least until PGI dials it in, which could be over the course of a year or so.

[197mmCannon]

197mmCannon, on 21 December 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

My point is simply that this entire subject started because of the 240 drop deck and we need to be careful that balance isn't jacked further. Let's not lose sight of the big picture.

RestosIII, on 21 December 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

No it didn't. A lot of people have been asking for new light mechs, especially Clan light mechs, for a long time now. And the 20 tonner slot is one that I've personally wanted filled for a good while. Hell, I don't even play FW/CW. so don't go slapping drop deck tonnage levels onto this as to why we want them.

The very first post in this thread is in reference to 240 clan deck limit and Kanajishis video of Russ saying in a game that firemoth was coming was also spurred on by 240 deck limit. So yes, this all started because of clan 240 deck limit. That may not be why you (or others) personally want one but what I posted is still a true statement.

I'm not against a clan 20 ton mech, I'm just pointing out that there are broader game balance factors that also need to be considered.

Edited by 197mmCannon, 21 December 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 December 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

It sounds like you aren't going to be satisfied until MW5 comes out. Don't see how Skill Trees is going to fix something that quirks couldn't, there is actually a higher chance that balance will be worse after the skill trees drop, at least until PGI dials it in, which could be over the course of a year or so.

Either MW5:M or HBS' BT.

That aside though, I'm at least willing to TRY playing the game again once Skill Trees 1.0 comes out. There's a chance that balance could be worse, yes, but there's also just as good a chance that it might shake things up enough that the game would function at least SOMEWHAT differently than it has in the past.

Yes, it might take a while for everything to be tweaked where it needs to be, but with as many different skill trees as there appear to be, it looks like things would be shaken up quite a bit as people figure out what trees apply better to X mech over Y mech.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

Either MW5:M or HBS' BT.

That aside though, I'm at least willing to TRY playing the game again once Skill Trees 1.0 comes out. There's a chance that balance could be worse, yes, but there's also just as good a chance that it might shake things up enough that the game would function at least SOMEWHAT differently than it has in the past.

Yes, it might take a while for everything to be tweaked where it needs to be, but with as many different skill trees as there appear to be, it looks like things would be shaken up quite a bit as people figure out what trees apply better to X mech over Y mech.

Yeah, but core mech factors remain, and in the absence of the laundry list of quirks that some mechs have already and STILL aren't as good as other options, the skill tree will have to be dramatically different than say the Skill tree for the Kodiak-3, if we want any hope of balance. On the Skill Tree, I'm excited about the potential it holds in the customizability of mechs, but I'm also very scared of the resulting balance, when you look at mechs that are decent only because their HUGE structure/durability/weapon quirks. The idea that those don't carry over is worrysome.

Again, I am curious to hear what is so "broken" now? Yeah balance isn't perfect, but its not THAT bad, unless you are talking about why the SDR-5V still isn't on par with other lights... I don't have an answer or solution to that.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 21 December 2016 - 01:56 PM.

[CK16]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 December 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Yeah, but core mech factors remain, and in the absence of the laundry list of quirks that some mechs have already and STILL aren't as good as other options, the skill tree will have to be dramatically different than say the Skill tree for the Kodiak-3, if we want any hope of balance. On the Skill Tree, I'm excited about the potential it holds in the customizability of mechs, but I'm also very scared of the resulting balance, when you look at mechs that are decent only because their HUGE structure/durability/weapon quirks. The idea that those don't carry over is worrysome.

Again, I am curious to hear what is so "broken" now? Yeah balance isn't perfect, but its not THAT bad, unless you are talking about why the SDR-5V still isn't on par with other lights... I don't have an answer or solution to that.

To me though, I hate that meta mentality. I only take the mechs that have good quirks, like pretty much what mech is overbuffed, that's my choice. It's quite annoying for the meta hoppers and would rather have the tech tree be able to make the mechs fill the niche the warrior wants. Aka you gotta choose now firepower vs speed vs survivability, vs efficiency, & ect. I am tired of the mechs with huge quirks have everything good and no draw backs to that chassis and hope this new tree creates that and nerfs the main over buffed mechs. Get the idea?

[Y E O N N E]

There are no 'Mechs with huge quirks that dont have huge drawbacks. I defy you to name one.

[Gas Guzzler]

CK16, on 21 December 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

I am tired of the mechs with huge quirks have everything good and no draw backs to that chassis and hope this new tree creates that and nerfs the main over buffed mechs. Get the idea?

What heavily quirked mechs have no drawbacks?

[Valdarion Silarius]

Alan Davion, on 21 December 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

The question is how long would it take for people to close their wallets permanently and send a real shock to PGI's system?

The same day when the whales unburrow their heads out of the sand and realize what they are funding. It would be long after the pugs stop playing the game on steam and buying the random occasional mech pack here and there. It might be alot sooner than what people think.

[Aramuside]

Arnold The Governator, on 21 December 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

The same day when the whales unburrow their heads out of the sand and realize what they are funding. It would be long after the pugs stop playing the game on steam and buying the random occasional mech pack here and there. It might be alot sooner than what people think.

So amusing....

[Alan Davion]

Aramuside, on 21 December 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

So amusing....

It WOULD be amusing if it weren't the truth. Sooner or later people will close the wallets and then PGI is gonna be scrambling even worse than they have been over the last few years.