83 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Void Angel, on 24 December 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

I soloed a fresh Inner Sphere Assault 'mech in my Pakhet the other day, on top of the parking garage in Crimson Strait; I was able to move back and forth behind a tower and poke him to death with SRMs. That doesn't prove a gorram thing about the power of the chassis by itself - but it's significant that I cannot imagine doing that to the same 'mech in any Inner Sphere Medium chassis that I own.

Locust.

[Void Angel]

Hah! Point taken. Not a Medium, though - and the skill disparity hits Assault pilots who don't build or drive their 'mechs well a lot harder when they're up against a Light.

[Cabusha3]

Snazzy Dragon, on 22 December 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Timber wolf drops to xl 350, drops ferro, forum explodes over double gauss timber wolf rampage


bad idea

Does it really matter though when all too soon, they'll finally release the WHM-IIC and RFL-IIC? Since they'll be able to rock that build without issue.

We're well past the point of OP Timby since the KDK and MAD-IIC have already let that cat out of the bag.

[Y E O N N E]

Cabusha3, on 24 December 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

Does it really matter though when all too soon, they'll finally release the WHM-IIC and RFL-IIC? Since they'll be able to rock that build without issue.

We're well past the point of OP Timby since the KDK and MAD-IIC have already let that cat out of the bag.

Not quite. The WHM-IIC is an Assault 'Mech, just like the MAD-IIC. That means, in your drop composition, you have to measure it against the Kodiak. The RFL-IIC is super slow. It will be a lighter alternative to the Night Gyr, but it won't be better.

Void Angel, on 24 December 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Hah! Point taken. Not a Medium, though - and the skill disparity hits Assault pilots who don't build or drive their 'mechs well a lot harder when they're up against a Light.

True story, last night a Commando took out three assaults, including me, by hugging their legs. Team had spread out all over the map (Grim), not a thing we could do. Couldn't aim low enough, and only two MedLas in the arm was woefully inadequate.

I don't Assault very often...

[Void Angel]

I'd really like a mechanic that causes the same kind of slowdown as leg destruction when a big 'mech hits a little one. Certain Light pilots can exploit holes in the game to kill a 'mech that should just kick them.

[Y E O N N E]

Void Angel, on 24 December 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

I'd really like a mechanic that causes the same kind of slowdown as leg destruction when a big 'mech hits a little one. Certain Light pilots can exploit holes in the game to kill a 'mech that should just kick them.

I don't generally feel like it's a huge issue. The first to go down, was an Atlas. Our team was still close enough by that point that they could have warded away the Commando. But they didn't so much as turn around. It was me who warded it off, but not before the Atlas died.

Really, a team providing proper coverage would have handled it easily. This was a failure of the team, not the Commando being abusive.

[Void Angel]

Oh, huge it's not. But it can be frustrating to lose in a situation where the enemy player is simply using mechanics that you can't change. There always needs to be counterplay, and hugging the legs of a 'mech that can't do anything about it fails on that point.

[Y E O N N E]

Void Angel, on 24 December 2016 - 10:56 PM, said:

Oh, huge it's not. But it can be frustrating to lose in a situation where the enemy player is simply using mechanics that you can't change. There always needs to be counterplay, and hugging the legs of a 'mech that can't do anything about it fails on that point.

I mean, smacking a Light with 50 PPFLD isn't counterable by the Light. Neither are massed Streaks. If we want the Assault to be able to kick the Light, then the Assault also shouldn't get to kill it in one surprise shot like that. If you bring torso guns only, you reap what you sow. Trade-offs.

[Void Angel]

Smacking the Light is counterable - that's why the Light has all that agility and speed. Massed Streaks have almost no counterplay, however - which makes them entirely frustrating to play against and is one of the major problem with that system.

A Light camping underneath an Atlas, Banshee, or whatever's field of view is similarly hard to counter, arm weapons or not. He gets a huge advantage that the Assault really can't do anything about; this is separate from the agility v. firepower risk/reward balance that normally exists: an Assault's ability to blast a Light (and remember most builds cannot easily one-shot you unless you're standing still or already damaged) is counterbalanced by the Light's agility and speed - unless the Light is just standing in front of you and a little to the side, making you unable to effectively focus your damage on him because of convergence and lack of visual feedback.

It's not a game-breaking thing, but it is a hole in balance.

[Y E O N N E]

Void Angel, on 25 December 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Smacking the Light is counterable - that's why the Light has all that agility and speed. Massed Streaks have almost no counterplay, however - which makes them entirely frustrating to play against and is one of the major problem with that system.

It's not counterable. The agility is too easily tracked except at ranges where the Light isn't a threat in the first place, and a complete surprise shot will kill it outright. Being able to duck under the rigid torso weapons on such highly-specialized builds is the effective counter to being unable to sustain a single PPFLD hit like that. That's why only the heaviest Lights are taken for comp games, they are the most survivable. You will get hit.

If I had mounted the LPLs or my more typical ER PPCs into the arm of my Battlemaster, that Commando would have either been toast or gone. I had options to counter, it was my fault for building it out the way I did. It's not a hole in balance.

[Void Angel]

Being surprised means that you failed at counter-play, not that it didn't exist. The Lights are taken for competition are universally chosen for their firepower; survivability is important, but it's not paramount or you'd have more Raven 3Ls and Spider 5Ds on the tier lists and such. What makes a Light attractive is either the pinpoint damage of the ACH's laser alpha, or "The most SRMs I can cram into a Light."

Counter play doesn't mean hard counters. I can tell you from the standpoint of gunner and target that a good Locust pilot is difficult to hit at best, even at close range. Sure, he can finger-paint me with his lasers, but I'm not going to spread that damage and likely survive, unless I've been worn down previously. I can maneuver around him and come at him from a direction and at a time where he can't really afford to pay attention to me - that's counterplay for the frontloaded damage. Just because a Light can't slug it out with an Assault doesn't mean there's no counterplay between the two of them.

Or rather, a Light shouldn't be able to blithely strafe back and forth in front of an Assault - but occasionally they can. An SRM36 Jenner IIC can literally stand in front of your Battlemaster and leg it in 8.5 seconds or so - and it can do it while being shot in the face with your LPL. He doesn't even have to spread the damage. Heck, he can just CT core you - and if he can do it while you can't really use the directed-targeting aspect of the game against him, that's a hole in balance. It's situational and non-critical, but it is there.

Think about that last paragraph - you're telling me that I should have to put heavy energy cannons into my Battlemaster's arms in order to be able to outslug a Light at knee range.

[Y E O N N E]

Void Angel, on 25 December 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

Think about that last paragraph - you're telling me that I should have to put heavy energy cannons into my Battlemaster's arms in order to be able to outslug a Light at knee range.

Yes, I am. Just like a Light has to take the biggest XL it can find to run fast enough to survive.

If anything, being unable to aim down while bringing massive firepower in rigid mounts is one of the best instances of tradeoffs in the game. It's not exclusive to Assaults, either. The FS9, for example, can't pitch its torso up and down to save its life, compelling the pilot to get on level ground with the target if it wants to bring all eight of its weapons to bare on the target. It's brilliant, actually.

[L1f3H4ck]

No! They're Omnimechs, which means you can switch around hardpoints while other things are fixed. That's called a "downside", deal with it. And last I checked, balance favored Clans, and you want to make it worse?

[Void Angel]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 December 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

Yes, I am.

And you're wrong. Our hypothetical Battlemaster cannot win a direct slugging contest even with that LPL on the arm mount. Run the math. All the Light has to do is run up to him; there is no way that the Battlemaster can watch all directions at once, especially if he's doing his job and sharing armor to oppose the other heavy elements in the enemy's team. Once that Light runs up to him, he can essentially just stand there and take it while he kills or cripples the Battlemaster. The Jenner IIC is an extreme example, but even a Jenner D can do it - to say nothing of an Oxide or Arctic Cheetah. This isn't "mobility/fragility v. firepower/durability" exchange - the Light can literally take it in the teeth and still win. It's not a matter of the Assault simply being at a disadvantage, either - the Light can play the Assault's game and engage in a direct contest of firepower that the Assault cannot prevent or counter at all.

You can say you don't find this particular balance loophole terribly important, and I'll agree with you - I've played Assaults a lot, and I'm always tolerantly amused when an Assault finds himself unable to fight a Light 'mech - but you cannot say it simply does not exist.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 December 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

I don't need to run the math, I've already accomplished it. The Battlemaster with a 350 engine and arm weapons is agile enough to consistently draw beads on the Light. He cannot hug your legs, because you are moving and the fact that your physical footprint can't be shortcut by any amount of superior turn radius.

It's only a problem if you have nothing but torso weapons.

[Void Angel]

So you've ignored empirical evidence to cling to your opinion. That's disappointing.

[RestosIII]

Just to be clear... someone in here is claiming lights are OP vs assaults with torso mounts?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Void Angel, on 26 December 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

*snip*

Please clarify 1 point in your argument - are this hypothetical Light and Assault 'mech;
A. Part of a full team?
B. The only 'mechs on the field?

If A. then the Battlemaster's team will kill the Light. No advantage to the Light.
If B. then the Battlemaster can focus solely on the Light. No advantage to the Light.

Or is it the secret option;
C. The Light is invisible to the Battlemaster's team and can fight them unhindered, while the Battlemaster must engage the rest of the enemy team at the same time?

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 26 December 2016 - 12:48 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 December 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

C. The Light is invisible to the Battlemaster's team and can fight them unhindered, while the Battlemaster must engage the rest of the enemy team at the same time?

If it's C, then he's barking up the wrong tree.

Void Angel, on 26 December 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

So you've ignored empirical evidence to cling to your opinion. That's disappointing.

You did not present empirical evidence, you presented qualitative theory.

You can go into the testing grounds for yourself. You will find that at the closest possible range, the Commando cannot avoid getting tagged by your arms, period. Even the Locust would be taggable. And if he wants to move around you, he has to pull back. He cannot cover the resulting distance fast enough to remain perpetually in your blind spot, and there is no 'Mech faster than a Commando or a Locust.

This is not a problem.

[Baulven]

Frechdachs, on 25 December 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

No! They're Omnimechs, which means you can switch around hardpoints while other things are fixed. That's called a "downside", deal with it. And last I checked, balance favored Clans, and you want to make it worse?

This would Buff underperformers at the expense of making their hard points fixed. Quite frankly the fact that omnimech are only good ideas when you need to do in field repairs and changes (something that does not exist) means that it is effectively a worse option to take instead of a IIC. And none of the options that would be buffed would really be the top performers [since hard point locking would be a thing, preventing min max of options.)

There is a reason a lot of clan mechs are mothballed, and this would help bring some diversity to the field I think. Then again I actually advocate for IS XL to not die on ST lose but then again I am a crazy person.