297 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Tristan Winter, on 28 December 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

Nah. But people on the forum like to pretend that the solo queue is some elite arena where laservomit and LRM boats are crap because nobody in the MWOWC were using those builds. As if that matters in the puglife.

QP is for derping. I have a splat Orion I love to play in QP, the above trollgasm mechs and my 3xlrm5a, 2xlb5x TBR damage farmer.

The issue is people who take bad builds to QP and think that the garbage that works there isn't terrible because it works in derptown. Then they go to group queue or FW and get demolished and mocked and blame everyone else.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

QP is for derping. I have a splat Orion I love to play in QP, the above trollgasm mechs and my 3xlrm5a, 2xlb5x TBR damage farmer.

The issue is people who take bad builds to QP and think that the garbage that works there isn't terrible because it works in derptown. Then they go to group queue or FW and get demolished and mocked and blame everyone else.

The **** you can get away with in solo/yolo queue is not even remotely representative of the way the rest of this game is played.

FFS, you can make an SRM locust work in the yolo queue...who does that?

[Tristan Winter]

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

QP is for derping. I have a splat Orion I love to play in QP, the above trollgasm mechs and my 3xlrm5a, 2xlb5x TBR damage farmer.
The issue is people who take bad builds to QP and think that the garbage that works there isn't terrible because it works in derptown. Then they go to group queue or FW and get demolished and mocked and blame everyone else.

Yeah, but that's kind of beside the point. Nobody is saying that LRMs are the way to beat Empyreal in the group queue.

But to pretend that LRMs don't work in solo queue against the legendary, epic Tier 1 players who reside there, because only the ppc + gauss or dakka meta is viable right now... it's those kind of simplifications that are frustrating to read on the forums.

And it's silly to go to the other extreme as well. Unless you're Proton or someone like that, don't tell me that you're a God among men in the solo queue with a 10.0 KDR and 5.0 WLR and you're just cutting through pugs like sheep in whatever mech you'd like. It's not like anyone who is mildly competent can rule derptown in their LBX Phoenix Hawk. I see most of the Tier 1 guys on the forum in the solo queue quite regularly. They're often getting stomped, just like I am. Because it's hard to carry in this game.

The anti-LRM circle jerk needs to stahp.

[MischiefSC]

Tristan Winter, on 28 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Yeah, but that's kind of beside the point. Nobody is saying that LRMs are the way to beat Empyreal in the group queue.

But to pretend that LRMs don't work in solo queue against the legendary, epic Tier 1 players who reside there, because only the ppc + gauss or dakka meta is viable right now... it's those kind of simplifications that are frustrating to read on the forums.

And it's silly to go to the other extreme as well. Unless you're Proton or someone like that, don't tell me that you're a God among men in the solo queue with a 10.0 KDR and 5.0 WLR and you're just cutting through pugs like sheep in whatever mech you'd like. It's not like anyone who is mildly competent can rule derptown in their LBX Phoenix Hawk. I see most of the Tier 1 guys on the forum in the solo queue quite regularly. They're often getting stomped, just like I am. Because it's hard to carry in this game.

The anti-LRM circle jerk needs to stahp.

Except that LRMs are feast/famine and largely require your team to carry you. They work effectively only when your team is winning. So they mean your losses are worse and your wins net you more damage because you're sandblasting every yolo scrub wandering in the open.

There's a world of difference between people taking derp builds to derp queue for some good old fashioned derping and people saying 'this is great and works the best and you should all work to get good at it'.

My frustration isn't with people taking LRMs. It's with people who keep saying LRMs are a good choice, which keeps fortifying the same bad ideas that bleed into FW matches and group queue with people who brutally sandbag their own teams by taking those terrible builds into an environment where the other team is not all but guaranteed to be horrible.

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 28 December 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

FFS, you can make an SRM locust work in the yolo queue...who does that?

There are far, far weaker 'Mechs in the game than an SRM Locust.

[Tristan Winter]

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

Except that LRMs are feast/famine and largely require your team to carry you.

Feast / famine is not really a useful term, because it's so inaccurate. How good is the feast and how bad is the famine? How often do you get a feast and how often do you get a famine? If there's a 50% chance of doing 1000+ damage and 50% chance of doing 0 damage, how do those numbers compare with the average pug numbers? And what if it's a 70% chance of doing 400+ damage and a 30% chance of doing 0-399 damage?

As for requiring your team to carry you, I disagree with that as well. If the LRM boat is bad and just sits behind cover, then it certainly requires the team to sacrifice their mechs to keep the LRM boat alive, which may not be a good trade. But that's not necessarily the case. And while LRM boats do need protecting, there are other builds that require protecting as well. Most dual gauss builds require protecting. I wouldn't say they're being carried by their teammates, this is just role warfare. You use your pawns to protect your bishops, or your pikemen to protect your archers.

You know, one of my best Clan mech in MWO is actually... my ECM Gauss Shadow Cat. I know just saying this is going to disqualify my opinion for many people, because it's such a bad build. It has the 3rd highest WLR of my Clan mechs, after the Hellbringer and Warhawk. It has a 1.54 WLR after over a hundred matches, playing exclusively in the solo queue. I know these numbers are nothing to write home about, but bear with me. My Gauss Cat works in the same way as an LRM boat. It works best if the team is able to maintain some kind of pressure. If my team totally collapses, then I am not able to do a lot of damage, because I have to spend most of my time running and disengaging. But if my team is able to exert some kind of pressure, then I can amplify their success by pinning down the enemy, killing vulnerable mechs, etc. Does that mean I am being carried? In a sense, they are carrying me by protecting me and keeping the enemy occupied. But in another sense, I am increasing the chance of a victory.

To carry someone means that you're contributing more to victory than they are. But if an LRM boat is getting 6 kills and doing 1400 damage, it probably contributed a lot to victory. It just required protection and, if the LRM boat player was bad, it required a bit of sacrifice.

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

They work effectively only when your team is winning. So they mean your losses are worse and your wins net you more damage because you're sandblasting every yolo scrub wandering in the open.

I'd say this depends on the LRM boat. Your losses are worse if said LRM boat is just hiding in cover without sharing armour and not able to get a lock because neither he nor others is willing to reveal themselves.

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

There's a world of difference between people taking derp builds to derp queue for some good old fashioned derping and people saying 'this is great and works the best and you should all work to get good at it'.

I'm not quite sure what the last statement is referring to, it seems like a strawman argument.

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:

My frustration isn't with people taking LRMs. It's with people who keep saying LRMs are a good choice, which keeps fortifying the same bad ideas that bleed into FW matches and group queue with people who brutally sandbag their own teams by taking those terrible builds into an environment where the other team is not all but guaranteed to be horrible.

I think the big problem is generalising. QP can't always be generalized to FP, solo queue can't always be generalized to group queue, and 12 man group queue can't always be generalized to 8v8 MWOWC matches.

In the solo queue, it's quite likely that you'll find a lot of enemies who are vulnerable to LRMs. And for most players, an LRM boat can exploit their poor awareness more than a SDR-5K can. For a lot of players, the LRM boat is a more reliable path to profit in the solo queue than the SDR-5K, even though elite players used the SDR-5K in the MWOWC and no one was ever seen rocking the AWS-8R LRM boat.

I'm not saying that LRM boats are the best mechs you can take to the solo queue, I'm just saying they consistently do well at any tier and that's why people are using them. They are feast and famine to an extent, but you can say that about a lot of mechs.

[RestosIII]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

There are far, far weaker 'Mechs in the game than an SRM Locust.

Like an AC/2 Locust!

[Kroete]

Tristan Winter, on 28 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

But to pretend that LRMs don't work in solo queue against the legendary, epic Tier 1 players who reside there, because only the ppc + gauss or dakka meta is viable right now... it's those kind of simplifications that are frustrating to read on the forums.

Still have a lot of fun and good matches with my dogs in qp.
Seldom under 500damage, more often 800-1100 damage and a few kills and lots of assists.
Still having 1.46 w/l and 2.02 k/d with my dogs and only a few kills come from the csls i use.

After some time i think the campaign against lrms is mostly from players that dont like lrms and dont want to deal against them.
By using them you force them to change their playstyle and their build (radarderp, ams) and thats what makes you bad.
You should trade and if you use weapons that can hit them without that peekandpook, you are bad, if you can hit them against their "cover" you are bad, if you can kill hillhumpers you are bad, if you restrict their movement, you are bad and if you can supress them you are also bad.

Just look on from page 4 on about that tier 1 guy and his crying about lrms.
If lrms are that bad, why do tier 1 players cry about them and want them nerfed?

Or the other tier 1 guy (page5) that crys about lrms in fw on polar.
He did not even think about taking ams with the whole team to rush the enemy boats.

That 1 heatsink is better then ams and if you use lrms you are bad,
because they die or need to change their build or playstyle.
Thats why we have that campaign against lrms ...

Metamechs dont have ams and thats why lrms are bad and need a nerf!

Edited by Kroete, 29 December 2016 - 03:54 AM.

[L3mming2]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

There are far, far weaker 'Mechs in the game than an SRM Locust.

the SRM LCT is quite good, its only flaw is that it has to low ammo to get the kind of dammage nbrs i like, but wile it has ammo it can be a beast..

[L3mming2]

Kroete, on 29 December 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

Still have a lot of fun and good matches with my dogs in qp.
Seldom under 500damage, more often 800-1100 damage and a few kills and lots of assists.
Still having 1.46 w/l and 2.02 k/d with my dogs and only a few kills come from the csls i use.

After some time i think the campaign against lrms is mostly from players that dont like lrms and dont want to deal against them.
By using them you force them to change their playstyle and their build (radarderp, ams) and thats what makes you bad.
You should trade and if you use weapons that can hit them without that peekandpook, you are bad, if you can hit them against their "cover" you are bad, if you can kill hillhumpers you are bad, if you restrict their movement, you are bad and if you can supress them you are also bad.

Just look on from page 4 on about that tier 1 guy and his crying about lrms.
If lrms are that bad, why do tier 1 players cry about them and want them nerfed?

Or the other tier 1 guy (page5) that crys about lrms in fw on polar.
He did not even think about taking ams with the whole team to rush the enemy boats.

That 1 heatsink is better then ams and if you use lrms you are bad,
because they die or need to change their build or playstyle.
Thats why we have that campaign against lrms ...

Metamechs dont have ams and thats why lrms are bad and need a nerf!

AMS douse not work against massed lrm's and rushing the ennemy as is in there slower heavy er mechs douse not work ...

and whats more, to make shure everyone brings AMS in a FW pug drop... unless you are in a 12 man thats just not going to happen...

i dont want lrms nerfed, if annything i think the lrms should all get the spread of lrm10's (regardless of the lancher size). but on polar especialy whit FW where you can pick a drop deck. they are broke..

to make a illustration, lets say every mech brings 1 AMS, and u are balled up tight so they all can fire at the incomming lrms,

every AMS shooths down between 4-5 (clan) lrms in every volly,

now we have a clan team with on average 2 lrm 15's* a mech, thats 360 lrms a volly, only 60 will be shot down by AMS....

* example of such a mech,
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ba1f8028b2485ae

conclusion, lrms are fine, polar is not, there needs to be some hard cover spread around that map in the forme of some big ice bolders or spires or some thing. if even a light cant scout properly without ECM, cos he will be rained to death as soon as he gets in to contact longer then 5 s then there is a problem...

[Galenit]

L3mming2, on 29 December 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

now we have a clan team with on average 2 lrm 15's* a mech, thats 360 lrms a volly, only 60 will be shot down by AMS....

Do you have a pic or vid?
I have nerver seen a team with 24 lrm15´s.

And if so, they would not get a single lrm out, because they all stay back and beg for locks, as a lot of player claim,
even if one would spot, all the directfire mechs would kill him because of his facetime, as a lot of players claim.

You could also counter the 12 lrm30 mechs with 12 3xams mechs with overload and range and 12 ecm and 12 radarderp, you know most players have less then 50% hit with lrms, so only 180 lrms would connect with would be countered by the 36 ams.

Maybe we should talk about realistic numbers?

L3mming2, on 29 December 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

i dont want lrms nerfed, if annything i think the lrms should all get the spread of lrm10's (regardless of the lancher size). but on polar especialy whit FW where you can pick a drop deck. they are broke..

That would be a buff for the bigger launchers and a nerf for lrm5.
Sounds good for me ...

But i would prefer a bigger spread for all lrms (all the same, a little more then the old lrm20 spread),
but tag, narc and artemis reduces the spread massive (around the lrm5/10 we have now).
This would make spotted or selftargeting lrms a lot better and would nerf the indirect fired missles without tag or narc.

Edited by Galenit, 29 December 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

L3mming2, on 29 December 2016 - 03:57 AM, said:

the SRM LCT is quite good, its only flaw is that it has to low ammo to get the kind of dammage nbrs i like, but wile it has ammo it can be a beast..

I know, hence my statement.

18.2 DPS at 156 kph!

[I_AM_ZUUL]

MacClearly, on 28 December 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

[Redacted] You are talking about one of the best teams in FW with MJ12. You don't get that one bad wave can be made up and it is done all the time. Instead you ran in and reinforced and caused the team you were on to have to play 11 vs. 12.

[Redacted] What is in black and white is MJ12 and their players records and ranking on the leaderboards. These reflect how good these guys are [Redacted]

what terrible faulty "logic"... that they had the LAST wave 11v12 in a match that was lost 27-48 mattered????? I remember that game very clearly since it was the only time in hundreds of matches I have done that... so thanks for [Redacted] giving me something to laugh at.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 29 December 2016 - 03:34 PM.
insult, spam / flooding

[Corrado]

Snazzy Dragon, on 24 December 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

Really, if LRMs are a problem for you, maybe you should reconsider your approaches. Are you covered? Where can the enemy see you from? Do you have a way to break locks? Or are you wandering out into the open all the time and just assuming the LRMs are not going to hit you even though you (should) know better?

Tired of hearing people scream on comms about LRMs being OP when I watch them run around out in the open or through the death valleys of a map.

LRMs arent the problem. running a SRM assault without ecm in polar tardlands, against narc + 4 boats tho... i'd want you to try.

[draiocht]

[mod]Removed some personal attacks and
unconstructive content in the past couple pages.

Please stay on-topic & polite.
Thank you.[/mod]

[AphexTwin11]

draiocht, on 29 December 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

[mod]Removed some personal attacks and
unconstructive content in the past couple pages.

Please stay on-topic & polite.
Thank you.[/mod]

those are the best parts though

Edited by AphexTwin11, 29 December 2016 - 03:50 PM.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

There are far, far weaker 'Mechs in the game than an SRM Locust.

It is doable...but the issue is that you are a sustained DPS build in a mech designed for hit and run...

[Y E O N N E]

Gyrok, on 29 December 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

It is doable...but the issue is that you are a sustained DPS build in a mech designed for hit and run...

It hits and runs very well, too. You can throw out three volleys before the enemy can respond, that's 51.6 damage from the missiles alone, 57.6 if you get a small laser in there, too.

Also, this is the appropriate build. That's what I ran in scrims, actually usually ditched the SmallLas for another half-ton of ammo.

[RestosIII]

Gyrok, on 29 December 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

It is doable...but the issue is that you are a sustained DPS build in a mech designed for hit and run...

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 08:05 PM, said:

It hits and runs very well, too. You can throw out three volleys before the enemy can respond, that's 51.6 damage from the missiles alone, 57.6 if you get a small laser in there, too.

Also, this is the appropriate build. That's what I ran in scrims, actually usually ditched the SmallLas for another half-ton of ammo.

You see, this garbage is what makes my Adder cry. Stop doing that. I know light mechs need help, and the Locust is one of the few good ones, but that's just cruel to other light mechs.

[Y E O N N E]

RestosIII, on 29 December 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

You see, this garbage is what makes my Adder cry. Stop doing that. I know light mechs need help, and the Locust is one of the few good ones, but that's just cruel to other light mechs.

Garbage? The Adder is potent enough to make a Blackjack do a double take. It's just not good as a hit-and-run 'Mech and it never will be on account of the fact that it can't run.

Also, Locust is only good precisely because it can do that.