128 replies to this topic

[RestosIII]

SQW, on 26 December 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

A charging gauss is frustrating and counter intuitive but gameplay wise, it's an absolute must for MWO. If the gameplay is less an arena brawl or if customization is more limited then maybe. As it stands right now, without the charge, every mech heavier than 50 ton will sport a gauss even if means stripping everything else.

I swear, half of the problems with MWO balance is PGI's decision to let player customize every mech like they are omnis. Without weapon slot size restriction, MWO will forever waddle in this semi-acceptable arena shooter state.

I believe HBS's BT wouldn't allow something as crazy as dual ac20/gauss Jager etc and to me, that it shows HBS has far better insight into game design than PGI...or should that be common sense?

Every previous Mechwarrior game allowed stupid customization. This game should as well. MW5: Mercs better allow it, or there's going to be rioting.

[SQW]

RestosIII, on 26 December 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

It'd neuter its DPS into the ground, but I still want a 10 second cooldown, with charge gone.

Nobody cares about DPS in MWO. That's why people will pick a Dual Gauss Jager over a Quad AC2 Jager almost every time - it's all about that instant burst.

[MithrilDragon]

AC 5: 5 damage 1.66s cooldown no charge 3 DPS
Gauss: 15 damage 5s cooldown 1s charge 2.5 DPS

yep, that's balanced.

[RestosIII]

SQW, on 26 December 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

Nobody cares about DPS in MWO. That's why people will pick a Dual Gauss Jager over a Quad AC2 Jager almost every time - it's all about that instant burst.

People definitely care about DPS. People throw DPS numbers everywhere when arguing about how effective weapons are. AC/2's are specifically "meh" because of the fact that they are so slanted towards DPS over straight damage, and people really don't like facetanking. But cutting the DPS of a gauss rifle in half? People will feel it, and it'll encourage people that aren't running dedicated snipers to grab something else instead.

[El Bandito]

MithrilDragon, on 26 December 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

AC 5: 5 damage 1.66s cooldown no charge 3 DPS
Gauss: 15 damage 5s cooldown 1s charge 2.5 DPS

yep, that's balanced.

AC5 needs to use 3.32 seconds to deal 15 damage (and there is no guarantee the shells will all hit the same spot), while Gauss needs only 0.75 second. That is very vital in high level games.

SQW, on 26 December 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

Nobody cares about DPS in MWO. That's why people will pick a Dual Gauss Jager over a Quad AC2 Jager almost every time - it's all about that instant burst.

Depends on the mode. In my CW matches I have seen plenty of dakka Jagers but almost no dual Gauss Jagers.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 December 2016 - 08:42 PM.

[SQW]

RestosIII, on 26 December 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Every previous Mechwarrior game allowed stupid customization. This game should as well. MW5: Mercs better allow it, or there's going to be rioting.

MW4 had weapon size restrictions. Plus, all previous iterations were designed as single player game first - it was designed to let player feel like a God so balance wasn't a issue. If the AI mechs start using meta mechs, players would be the first one to complain.

If I want to play kiddie shooter, I'd go grab Mech Assault. MW5 better have weapon restriction or there will be riot. =)

MithrilDragon, on 26 December 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

AC 5: 5 damage 1.66s cooldown no charge 3 DPS
Gauss: 15 damage 5s cooldown 1s charge 2.5 DPS

yep, that's balanced.

I expose my gauss mech for 1 sec. I hit you for 15 dmg. You shoot me back with AC5 for 5dmg. Repeat.

[RestosIII]

SQW, on 26 December 2016 - 08:49 PM, said:

If I want to play kiddie shooter, I'd go grab Mech Assault.

[cazidin]

Prosperity Park, on 26 December 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

PGI hates the Gauss Rifle? What a crap comment.

PGI didn't give it the base stats that makes the Gauss Rifle obsolete the AC/20. PGI "hates" the Gauss Rifle because they made it less than perfect, unlike the base stats it is based on. Too f-ing bad.

The only people who cannot "get it" and learn how to charge the weapon are folks who have either not played video games before, or their only experience is with RPGs. But, hey, I am an elitist. I have been playing video games since the NES came out, so I have en edge over the competition.

First. Rude. Second. PGI has nerfed the Gauss Rifle gradually over the course of several months because it is and always has been and maybe still will be a generally solid long range weapon. At this point, the only thing left for them to do to "fix" it would be to increase its heat, CD, or reduce the damage and velocity, like they did to PPCs.

[Wintersdark]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Yes, it would break the game. Explode it completely, as a matter of fact.

Also, I like the charge. I find the mechanic makes the gun interesting to wield.

Yup. Reinforces it's role as a ranged weapon, as it's extremely difficult to use up close in a fast paced brawl unless you're really good at it (which I'm perfectly fine with).

Given that previously it was *the* brawling weapon, which seemed really ridiculous when compared to the other ballistics.

I'd prefer... some other change, I suppose, to do that... But I don't know what would accomplish it, and stat changes won't. Maybe a hard minimum range, but I do like being able to use it in a brawl with some skill.

[RestosIII]

Wintersdark, on 26 December 2016 - 08:52 PM, said:

Yup. Reinforces it's role as a ranged weapon, as it's extremely difficult to use up close in a fast paced brawl unless you're really good at it (which I'm perfectly fine with).

Given that previously it was *the* brawling weapon, which seemed really ridiculous when compared to the other ballistics.

I'd prefer... some other change, I suppose, to do that... But I don't know what would accomplish it, and stat changes won't. Maybe a hard minimum range, but I do like being able to use it in a brawl with some skill.

Thing is, the charge mechanic doesn't really effect it in a brawl. All you have to do is start charging it as you twist your mech back to facing the target, release, twist away again. Only thing the charge does is make it worse at its job of sniping.

[Bobzilla]

Min range would work.

[Wintersdark]

cazidin, on 26 December 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

Knowing PGI, they'd take this opportunity to remove the charge mechanic... but increase the CD by about 1-1.5 seconds because PGI hates the Gauss Rifle.

Wut? The Gauss Rifle has reigned as the premier ballistic through nearly ALL of MWO's history.

Yes, it's been nerfed a lot of times... and yet it remains one of the best ballistics. Thus, those nerfs have been necessary.

Maybe you don't, but I remember when running something like an AC20 instead of a Gauss Rifle was absurd. Or really, running ANY ballistic other than a Gauss Rifle was just silly. Even today, if you're not so bad as to be unable to "get" how to use it, the Gauss Rifle is still arguably the best ballistic overall.

Prosperity Park, on 26 December 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:

But, hey, I am an elitist. I have been playing video games since the NES came out, so I have en edge over the competition.

Only NES? 1983 at the earliest. Rookie.

[MechaBattler]

Yes. In fact, nerf it harder, make it require a longer charge before firing.

[Wintersdark]

SQW, on 26 December 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

I believe HBS's BT wouldn't allow something as crazy as dual ac20/gauss Jager etc and to me, that it shows HBS has far better insight into game design than PGI...or should that be common sense?

Because HBS isn't allowing mech customization at all. Because otherwise, dual ac/20 or dual gauss mechs are kind of unavoidable and indeed sometimes stock builds (which would have to be simply excluded then)

MithrilDragon, on 26 December 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

AC 5: 5 damage 1.66s cooldown no charge 3 DPS
Gauss: 15 damage 5s cooldown 1s charge 2.5 DPS

yep, that's balanced.

Yeah, if anything, the gauss rifle is still outmatching the AC5 even accounting for size and weight.

Because DPS isn't really important in MWO, but the ability to smash things at long range with high projectile speeds and no heat is incredibly valuable. A long cooldown just means you spend more time in cover taking less damage, and rendering your opponent's low cooldown high DPS weapon worthless as he's got nothing to fire at.

[RestosIII]

Wintersdark, on 26 December 2016 - 09:00 PM, said:

Because HBS isn't allowing mech customization at all. Because otherwise, dual ac/20 or dual gauss mechs are kind of unavoidable and indeed sometimes stock builds (which would have to be simply excluded then)


Yeah, if anything, the gauss rifle is still outmatching the AC5 even accounting for size and weight.

Because DPS isn't really important in MWO, but the ability to smash things at long range with high projectile speeds and no heat is incredibly valuable. A long cooldown just means you spend more time in cover taking less damage, and rendering your opponent's low cooldown high DPS weapon worthless as he's got nothing to fire at.

Only if that high DPS pilot is dumb enough to stay at range and try to out-poke a weapon build for long range. Get that DPS pilot in close, or where his firing line keeps the gauss carrier from getting in cover, and that goose rifle is looking a lot less appealing, especially if they increase its cooldown to 8-10 seconds.

[Wintersdark]

RestosIII, on 26 December 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

Thing is, the charge mechanic doesn't really effect it in a brawl. All you have to do is start charging it as you twist your mech back to facing the target, release, twist away again. Only thing the charge does is make it worse at its job of sniping.

Charge hurts brawl way more than long range fire. Start charging as you move out of cover, fire, move back into cover.

In a brawl, starting to charge while you twist back can work, but only vs. slow mechs. Otherwise, the short time you can hold the charge can often waste it while you try to get your guns on the target.

Sniping, though... Even if you're sitting with clear LOS waiting for a target, if you start charging the moment he starts moving out of cover, it's pretty much trivial to smack someone peeking.

Further, a failed charge at range doesn't really impact you, but a failed charge in a brawl is a serious disadvantage... and a serious disadvantage with a bomb in your mech.

RestosIII, on 26 December 2016 - 09:03 PM, said:

Only if that high DPS pilot is dumb enough to stay at range and try to out-poke a weapon build for long range. Get that DPS pilot in close, or where his firing line keeps the gauss carrier from getting in cover, and that goose rifle is looking a lot less appealing, especially if they increase its cooldown to 8-10 seconds.

Yup.

However, in practice, at the current levels, you still see Gauss prefered over DPS builds - particularly AC based DPS builds.

There's a reason the AC2 is generally viewed as garbage, and (U)AC5 DPS builds only used when they can be boated to extreme levels. Otherwise, DPS isn't a very good choice. Short cooldown, low damage means you can't effectively twist as well, and tend to spread damage more (at any given skill level short of "never hits anything other than what he wants", really)



Edit: I do agree that a longer Gauss cooldown would help offset this and make DPS builds a better option. However, a long cooldown and no charge isn't an answer that's going to happen.

Edited by Wintersdark, 26 December 2016 - 09:07 PM.

[Tarogato]

For what it's worth, PGI tried removing gauss charge quite recently on the Public Test Server.

Personally, I didn't like it. I actually prefer the gauss with its charge - it makes the weapon feel unique and powerful, and it rewards those with the bare minimum patience and coordination required to use it.

Same thing when I went back and played MW2 and MWLL - gauss without charge just kinda feels piddly and unsatisfying.

[Wintersdark]

Tarogato, on 26 December 2016 - 09:08 PM, said:

For what it's worth, PGI tried removing gauss charge quite recently on the Public Test Server.

Personally, I didn't like it. I actually prefer the gauss with its charge - it makes the weapon feel unique and powerful, and it rewards those with the bare minimum patience and coordination required to use it.

Same thing when I went back and played MW2 and MWLL - gauss without charge just kinda feels piddly and unsatisfying.

It's nice when a weapon feels different. Instant fire Gauss feels so much like a cool, quick AC15. A long cooldown just means a bit more hide between peek-and-shoot, which sounds like a great balance point (DPS mech can just charge!) until you consider it in the context of team play, where you're not just charging against one mech.

Ultimately, though, while as a Gauss user I enjoyed being able to snapshoot again, I do prefer the Gauss feeling more unique, and requiring it's own consideration to use.

[cazidin]

Wintersdark, on 26 December 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

Wut? The Gauss Rifle has reigned as the premier ballistic through nearly ALL of MWO's history.

Yes, it's been nerfed a lot of times... and yet it remains one of the best ballistics. Thus, those nerfs have been necessary.

Maybe you don't, but I remember when running something like an AC20 instead of a Gauss Rifle was absurd. Or really, running ANY ballistic other than a Gauss Rifle was just silly. Even today, if you're not so bad as to be unable to "get" how to use it, the Gauss Rifle is still arguably the best ballistic overall.

I started playing just when the AC/20 came back into fashion but I think you're approaching this from the wrong perspective.

The Gauss Rifle is good. Buff the other ballistics instead!

[RestosIII]

Wintersdark, on 26 December 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

Charge hurts brawl way more than long range fire. Start charging as you move out of cover, fire, move back into cover.

In a brawl, starting to charge while you twist back can work, but only vs. slow mechs. Otherwise, the short time you can hold the charge can often waste it while you try to get your guns on the target.

Sniping, though... Even if you're sitting with clear LOS waiting for a target, if you start charging the moment he starts moving out of cover, it's pretty much trivial to smack someone peeking.

Further, a failed charge at range doesn't really impact you, but a failed charge in a brawl is a serious disadvantage... and a serious disadvantage with a bomb in your mech.

Yup.

However, in practice, at the current levels, you still see Gauss prefered over DPS builds - particularly AC based DPS builds.

There's a reason the AC2 is generally viewed as garbage, and (U)AC5 DPS builds only used when they can be boated to extreme levels. Otherwise, DPS isn't a very good choice. Short cooldown, low damage means you can't effectively twist as well, and tend to spread damage more (at any given skill level short of "never hits anything other than what he wants", really)

Except the "start charging as soon as he's visible" thing only works against, what did you call it yourself? Ah, right, slow mechs. Against something like a Linebacker, or anything lighter, and they'll be able to poke and pull back before you can get the shot off if you have anything less than 12 year old CoD reaction times. And at long range, a failed charge does impact you, because you just got damaged without giving anything back in return. That adds up, especially if they were using PPCs.

And yes, at current cooldown levels, a goose rifle without charge-up would be bloody insane and many tears would be shed. But the only explanation I've seen people give for not wanting long cooldowns and no charge for it is "It might still be the best at poking!", when, y'know, that should be its only real job. Mid-long range poking. An 8-10 second cooldown would make it a fool's weapon at closer ranges, but all the arguments I see are just putting it in the perfect world of every fight being a poke fight, and staying a poke fight.