22 replies to this topic

[Yanlowen Cage]

SO if I am not mistaken. Which I could be. The time line was rewound back to 3053 (at present in game time). So if we were still on the old time line(3055 to early 3056 range?) right about now the I.S. would be putting out Omnis and a few weapons would about now coming on line for them as well. So in retrospect the reseting of the time line punished the Inner sphere as they will have to wait another 2 years in real life before they get those improvements that the old time line would have given them right about now. The disparity between I.S. tech and Clan tech being an issue for a while now would have gotten a shot in the arm. Also I believe as around this time that I.S. Onmis could start carrying Clan weapons. I think. don't quote me.

Scary hunh clanners. I.S. mechs carrying your salvaged weapons back into battle.

[Leone]

Actually, no. I'd love it if the IS mechs downpowered themselves that way. I'll take IS tech over Clan tech any day.

~Leone.

[brroleg]

Simply because adding new weapons to game is huge work for PGI, without direct money output.

With mech-packs, they made mech - and instantly got money.

With adding new weapons, they will make new weapons to the game - and will gain no direct money profit.

Cause you cant first sell weapons for real money, before giving them to free players, like they do with mechs. Or this will be exact PayToWin in all its glory. So this is no way situation for money-thirst company like PGI. They cant afford themself to make long-term investments into the game in form of adding new gameplay features without immediate money profit output.

Edited by brroleg, 27 December 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[LordNothing]

its been years since the first tukkayid and were just now getting the bushie next month. time line is vapor imho. timeline would need to accelerate greatly if we want anything interesting to happen, is omnis, new tech, etc. pgi doesnt want to move past the 3050s it seems, mw5 wont even move beyond it according to russ. we will be perpetually stuck in a very boring slice of the time line.

Edited by LordNothing, 27 December 2016 - 03:01 AM.

[El Bandito]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

SO if I am not mistaken. Which I could be. The time line was rewound back to 3053 (at present in game time). So if we were still on the old time line(3055 to early 3056 range?) right about now the I.S. would be putting out Omnis and a few weapons would about now coming on line for them as well. So in retrospect the reseting of the time line punished the Inner sphere as they will have to wait another 2 years in real life before they get those improvements that the old time line would have given them right about now. The disparity between I.S. tech and Clan tech being an issue for a while now would have gotten a shot in the arm. Also I believe as around this time that I.S. Onmis could start carrying Clan weapons. I think. don't quote me.

Scary hunh clanners. I.S. mechs carrying your salvaged weapons back into battle.

You are mistaken about few things.

First, when CW came online in late 2014, the timeline was reset to 3050 to be in line with lore. We are now exactly two years later so the max timeline being 3053 is fine, we are actually fast forwarding one year.

Second, early IS omnis suck. They really, really suck. Some are stuck with fixed Std engine, and single heat sinks. The fact of the matter is Battlemechs > Omnimechs. On both sides. So IS omnimechs will not bring balance to the force.

Third, even if we push the timeline to 3056, there is not many new weapons for the IS. We get Extended Range LRMs, which are even worse than regular LRMs, in this game. We do get Light Gauss Rifle, but that's the only weapon of note the IS gets. If we wanna push, push to 3058, at the least.

LordNothing, on 27 December 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

its been years since the first tukkayid and were just now getting the bushie next month. time line is vapor imho. timeline would need to accelerate greatly if we want anything interesting to happen, is omnis, new tech, etc. pgi doesnt want to move past the 3050s it seems, mw5 wont even move beyond it according to russ. we will be perpetually stuck in a very boring slice of the time line.

It is not the timeline, it is the gameplay and balance, mostly.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2016 - 03:09 AM.

[Choppah]

brroleg, on 27 December 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

Simply because adding new weapons to game is huge work for PGI, without direct money output.

With mech-packs, they made mech - and instantly got money.

With adding new weapons, they will make new weapons to the game - and will gain no direct money profit.

Cause you cant first sell weapons for real money, before giving them to free players, like they do with mechs. Or this will be exact PayToWin in all its glory. So this is no way situation for money-thirst company like PGI. They cant afford themself to make long-term investments into the game in form of adding new gameplay features without immediate money profit output.

MWO is a F2P MMO, there is supposed to be ever increasing content with the understanding that not all content is a money generator. Lots of players have already left or are on hiatus until actual new content is added instead of more mechs which end up with cookie cutter builds. Plus if PGI is porting/rebuilding MWO on UE4, testing out stuff now would be a great way to get notes for later implementation. New weapons require some xml edits, model, sound, and visual effect. However, by testing it on the test server the non-xml stuff can be skipped entirely. Lastly, if the testing goes well, PGI could do preorders for new engine MWO with popular clan and IS mechs where all or most variants had equipment outside the the current timeline. Basically its minimal work for major payout which is sounds right up PGI's alley.

[Angel of Annihilation]

LordNothing, on 27 December 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

its been years since the first tukkayid and were just now getting the bushie next month. time line is vapor imho. timeline would need to accelerate greatly if we want anything interesting to happen, is omnis, new tech, etc. pgi doesnt want to move past the 3050s it seems, mw5 wont even move beyond it according to russ. we will be perpetually stuck in a very boring slice of the time line.

I know what you mean. 3050 has been done to death and while the Clan invasion was a really big deal, honestly the FedCom Civil War is a much more interesting slice of Inner Sphere history. There is just so much more going on in the IS during the FedCom Civil War. You still have the Clans and even more of them including Wolf-in-Exile which would let Clanners actually fight for the Inner Spear, but now they are as fragmented in purpose as the Inner Sphere and no longer really have a tech advantage. You have major fighting between all the major Houses as well, not to mention between factions within the major houses to include huge swathes of planets changing hands and loyalty or kind of going off in their own independent directions. Also Comstar takes a very active part during this time frame opening up all the major fan favorite factions. Finally you have the reformed Star League which is also made up of both IS and Clan forces.

So yeah, a much more interesting time frame and one that really hasn't been covered very much if at all by any game to date. This is the time line MWO should have been set in.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

Scary hunh clanners. I.S. mechs carrying your salvaged weapons back into battle.

Not really. IS mechs due to their 3 slot DHS, can't mount enough DHS to actually cool Clan weapons which generate much more heat than IS weapons. Keep in mind a cER ML is 50% hotter than an IS one so requires at least 1-2 additional DHS to cool compared to the IS ML. Aside from a few weapons, Clan tech on a IS mech would nerf the hell out of the IS Mech.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Viktor Drake, on 27 December 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

Not really. IS mechs due to their 3 slot DHS, can't mount enough DHS to actually cool Clan weapons which generate much more heat than IS weapons. Keep in mind a cER ML is 50% hotter than an IS one so requires at least 1-2 additional DHS to cool compared to the IS ML. Aside from a few weapons, Clan tech on a IS mech would nerf the hell out of the IS Mech.

all clan auto cannons are lighter and less crits.
all clan missiles are lighter with less crits. few exceptions
clan gauss rifles are lighter.
clan Er lasers same heat as I.S. Er lasers for less crit space, more range, and better damage.
clan er pcc is lighter and more damage for the same heat.
those are by lore. but in game not so much. but still a griffin 2n with 4 streak 6's.
an awesome 8q with 4 clan large pulse lasers
a locust with 6 clan spls
a commando 2d with clan small pulse and 2 streak 4's
a thunderbolt standard engine 3 clan large pulse laser zombie.

scary...

pretty much ever weapon the Inner Sphere uses that is "upgraded tech" has a smaller, lighter, longer range, more damaging clan version.

Less weight and space = more ammo or heat sinks can be carried.

Edited by Yanlowen Cage, 27 December 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Davers]

I guess PGI could put out new mechs and have the new tech not be comparable with older mechs (hardpoints2.0) and release them the same way they did the Clans.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Viktor Drake, on 27 December 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

Not really. IS mechs due to their 3 slot DHS, can't mount enough DHS to actually cool Clan weapons which generate much more heat than IS weapons. Keep in mind a cER ML is 50% hotter than an IS one so requires at least 1-2 additional DHS to cool compared to the IS ML. Aside from a few weapons, Clan tech on a IS mech would nerf the hell out of the IS Mech.

your cERML is a bit of a facetious example... IS can use a cERML to replace a LL for practical purposes. you can do things like put 3 cERML on the right arm of a GRF-1S and free up so much weight that you can add a Hatchet on the Left Arm and other goodies. I know thats what i did in the Total Warfare RPG... even paying 3053 Black Market prices on Solaris for cERMLs it was one the cheapest as well as one of the best ways to improve that Mech.

its only 2 less damage, .15 sec added duration and 45m less range in exchange for 4 Tons, 1 Critical Slot, 1 less Heat, .25 sec less cooldown. Thats an exchange every IS player would make instantly... IS could laservomit again since PGI nerfed all the IS laservomit builds down into merely playable which is not enough to deal with Clan laservomit.

[Mcgral18]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

its only 2 less damage, .15 sec added duration and 45m less range in exchange for 4 Tons, 1 Critical Slot, 1 less Heat, .25 sec less cooldown. Thats an exchange every IS player would make instantly... IS could laservomit again since PGI nerfed all the IS laservomit builds down into merely playable which is not enough to deal with Clan laservomit.

Not quite, because they can't cool it
Not very well, at least


My 6 ERML Nova takes no fewer than 22 DHS, and even that runs toasty
My WubShee has difficulty taking that many heatsinks, with an XL400

[Yanlowen Cage]

ok here is where I think your logic is flawed.

I have an Atlas DDC on which I run:
2 lb10x 6 slots 11 tons each. with 3 tons of ammo 3 slots
3 srm4 + artemis 3 tons and 2 slots each with 2 tons ammo 2 slots
2 large lasers 5 tons and 2 slots each
1 ams with 1 ton of ammo and 2 slots
1 ecm 1.5 tons 2 slots
and a standard 300 engine with 2 heatsinks in the engine. total 12 dhs.

now I could remove the LB10X and replace with 2 clan ultra ac 10s
that is 4 slots each and 10 tons each. saving 4 slots and 2 tons
now I can replace the srm4 + art x3 with either 2 csrm6's, or 3 Csrm4s, or even 3 csrm6s.
I am going to go with 2 csrm6s (same firepower) 5 tons and 4 slots saving 4 tons and 2 slots
I remove the large lasers and replace with 2 clan er large saving 2 slots and 2 tons.

so now I have saved overall 9 tons and 8 slots. in which I could use to upgrade my dhs number or mount a larger engine.
just for giggles I am going to upgrade to a std 325 engine. thus gaining another hs slot in the engine. 5.5 tons heavier. no more slots. upping my speed by 4.5 kph to 56. not great but better. and the extra dhs in the engine really helps.
now I have 3.5 tons remaining and 8 slots remaining plus the two that were already empty. for 10 total slots.
So I decide to go with 2 more Dhs which push me to a total of 15 dhs. plus I think I will add a ton of ammo more for the ultras 4 total now. and I still have .5 tons remaining. wait! I could half ton to my armor which is down 6 points. nah. I might reduce my armor by 1/2 ton and add another DHS making 16.

There clan tech applied to I.S. mech:
2 cultra ac/10s four tons of ammo
2 csrm6 plus artemis and 2 tons ammo
2 Cerll
1 ecm
1 ams
16 double heat sinks to control the burn.

So overall IS couldn't run clan stuff? Just showed that I can build it with a large upgrade in range,firepower, and ammo. And still created a heat capable mech. And I didn't have to change everything out. I could have kept I.S. weapons here and there. But for the build I chose a full swap out. The reason I mention the only swapping out some weapons is due to the fact that lighter mechs than an atlas may want to pick and choose which clan weapons it wants to help manage some heat burden.
For example a black jack with 2 Cultra ac5's and standard is medium lasers. Weight saving allow the black jack to either carry more ammo or more heat sinks. a saving of 4 tons BTW.

In conclusion just because I.S. mechs could carry clan weapons doesn't mean they should carry the biggest highest heat generating ones. and yes Clan weapons could be viable on an I.S. mech.

No comments about the DDC build. I rarely play assaults so I don't trick them out alot.

Btw rechecked I was over by a ton so I will drop 1 dhs and only have 15. but upping my armor to 608 again.

Cheers

[Snazzy Dragon]

PGI is frolicking around the main tech imbalance rather than addressing it, but I think they will at least try to watch their skill tree make clan mechs even more preferable to IS mechs first.. because custom quirks in the hands of metagamers on clan mechs is a great idea.

[Bulletsponge0]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

SO if I am not mistaken. Which I could be. The time line was rewound back to 3053 (at present in game time). So if we were still on the old time line(3055 to early 3056 range?) right about now the I.S. would be putting out Omnis and a few weapons would about now coming on line for them as well. So in retrospect the reseting of the time line punished the Inner sphere as they will have to wait another 2 years in real life before they get those improvements that the old time line would have given them right about now. The disparity between I.S. tech and Clan tech being an issue for a while now would have gotten a shot in the arm. Also I believe as around this time that I.S. Onmis could start carrying Clan weapons. I think. don't quote me.

Scary hunh clanners. I.S. mechs carrying your salvaged weapons back into battle.

would you then agree that clans should be allowed to carry IS autocannons? or be able to fire 3 IS ERLLs without ghost heat?

be careful what you wish for

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Mcgral18, on 27 December 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Not quite, because they can't cool it
Not very well, at least


My 6 ERML Nova takes no fewer than 22 DHS, and even that runs toasty
My WubShee has difficulty taking that many heatsinks, with an XL400

ok... so your 50T mech has almost he same firepower & better speed/ mobility than a STK-4N running 6 LL. STK-4N only has a heat management of 1.16 for those 6 LL while the Nova is at 1.3... so you clearly dont grasp what you are saying, there is a lot of reasons that makes Clan OP in comparison to IS but except for the XL engine the cERML is the second biggest reason.

[Bulletsponge0]

Yanlowen Cage, on 27 December 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

ok here is where I think your logic is flawed.

I have an Atlas DDC on which I run:
2 lb10x 6 slots 11 tons each. with 3 tons of ammo 3 slots
3 srm4 + artemis 3 tons and 2 slots each with 2 tons ammo 2 slots
2 large lasers 5 tons and 2 slots each
1 ams with 1 ton of ammo and 2 slots
1 ecm 1.5 tons 2 slots
and a standard 300 engine with 2 heatsinks in the engine. total 12 dhs.

now I could remove the LB10X and replace with 2 clan ultra ac 10s
that is 4 slots each and 10 tons each. saving 4 slots and 2 tons
now I can replace the srm4 + art x3 with either 2 csrm6's, or 3 Csrm4s, or even 3 csrm6s.
I am going to go with 2 csrm6s (same firepower) 5 tons and 4 slots saving 4 tons and 2 slots
I remove the large lasers and replace with 2 clan er large saving 2 slots and 2 tons.

so now I have saved overall 9 tons and 8 slots. in which I could use to upgrade my dhs number or mount a larger engine.
just for giggles I am going to upgrade to a std 325 engine. thus gaining another hs slot in the engine. 5.5 tons heavier. no more slots. upping my speed by 4.5 kph to 56. not great but better. and the extra dhs in the engine really helps.
now I have 3.5 tons remaining and 8 slots remaining plus the two that were already empty. for 10 total slots.
So I decide to go with 2 more Dhs which push me to a total of 15 dhs. plus I think I will add a ton of ammo more for the ultras 4 total now. and I still have .5 tons remaining. wait! I could half ton to my armor which is down 6 points. nah. I might reduce my armor by 1/2 ton and add another DHS making 16.

There clan tech applied to I.S. mech:
2 cultra ac/10s four tons of ammo
2 csrm6 plus artemis and 2 tons ammo
2 Cerll
1 ecm
1 ams
16 double heat sinks to control the burn.

So overall IS couldn't run clan stuff? Just showed that I can build it with a large upgrade in range,firepower, and ammo. And still created a heat capable mech. And I didn't have to change everything out. I could have kept I.S. weapons here and there. But for the build I chose a full swap out. The reason I mention the only swapping out some weapons is due to the fact that lighter mechs than an atlas may want to pick and choose which clan weapons it wants to help manage some heat burden.
For example a black jack with 2 Cultra ac5's and standard is medium lasers. Weight saving allow the black jack to either carry more ammo or more heat sinks. a saving of 4 tons BTW.

In conclusion just because I.S. mechs could carry clan weapons doesn't mean they should carry the biggest highest heat generating ones. and yes Clan weapons could be viable on an I.S. mech.

No comments about the DDC build. I rarely play assaults so I don't trick them out alot.

Btw rechecked I was over by a ton so I will drop 1 dhs and only have 15. but upping my armor to 608 again.

Cheers

you might want to check how much hotter your clan weapon atlas would run before declaring that 15 DHS is enough

[Mcgral18]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

ok... so your 50T mech has almost he same firepower & better speed/ mobility than a STK-4N running 6 LL. STK-4N only has a heat management of 1.16 for those 6 LL while the Nova is at 1.3... so you clearly dont grasp what you are saying, there is a lot of reasons that makes Clan OP in comparison to IS but except for the XL engine the cERML is the second biggest reason.

It's not bad, but I disagree there
Weapons aren't a terribly large gulf, but are still notable.

It's other things which make the difference.
Even with cERMLs, an IS mech couldn't cool them effectively, because Endo (no Ferro), isXL is a DHS in itself (2 slots), and each pair of heatsinks is a third Clam heatsink.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 December 2016 - 01:36 PM.

[Johnny Z]

The biggest change to gameplay to date, except maybe the addition of Omni mechs, is just around the corner, which is the new mech tree. Very unlikely much of anything new will be added before then.

Big things in the new year.

By the way this new mech tree and everything that is being added is easily a larger addition than Omni tech I think.

Edited by Johnny Z, 27 December 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

If PGI decided to allow some mix-tech - the famous "salvaged" Clan weapons on IS mechs - it would not take much coding. The weapons exist. I would think that some type of blanket, picked at random amount rule like an IS mech can only have 2 Clan weapons would need to be implemented so we don't see IS mechs will all Clan weapons. (As there is no mechanism that makes it difficult for an IS player to get clan tech - indeed many players have Mechs of both tech in their mechbays).