67 replies to this topic

[L3mming2]

Snowbluff, on 27 December 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

I agree with you and I think Yeonne. Super weird choice.

(Heil PD)
I can't name a sinlge Clan Omni that can put a heat sink in the legs or CT. Maybe the Nova? Maybe? It sounds like a non issue, as that means we're talking about CLan Battlemechs, which are good, but the energy ones tend to be ovens even with a DHS crammed into the legs.

Yeah they were going to give SHS more capacity and DHS more cooling.

just looking at the clan assault omnis, 3 out of 4 of them can put (ore have locked) DHS in the legs... if u cant find any u are not looking

[QuantumButler]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 December 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

wondering how you got a total heat cap increase on only 13%,
if you have 20DHS and each has an increased Cap of 40%ish, then it would be 28,
not seeing how you are getting only a +4 to the cap, this Change at this point is a Buff,
and benefit isnt static but depends on how many DHS you have Equipped,

Remember the buff doesn't effect the 10 trudubs in your engine [clan lights with lower than 250 engines don't even get those full 10], so when you say 20DHS you actually mean 10DHS, unless you're seriously suggesting it is realistic for any mech to boat 20 extra doubles.

The most that is reasonable even on Direwhales with all the space in the world is about 14 extra, not 20. Most of them are more along the lines of 10-12 extra, many can't even manage 10 extra.

So again, this is not a buff as such, it is reverting a previous nerf back to the old pre nerf values.

[Andi Nagasia]

QuantumButler, on 28 December 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

Remember the buff doesn't effect the 10 trudubs in your engine [clan lights with lower than 250 engines don't even get those full 10], so when you say 20DHS you actually mean 10DHS, unless you're seriously suggesting it is realistic for any mech to boat 20 extra doubles.

The most that is reasonable even on Direwhales with all the space in the world is about 14 extra, not 20. Most of them are more along the lines of 10-12 extra, many can't even manage 10 extra.

So again, this is not a buff as such, it is reverting a previous nerf back to the old pre nerf values.

are you saying that Dubs in the Engine(First 10) already get 1.5? not 1.1(no where is this Stated)
or are you saying that Dubs in the Engine(First 10) dont get this 1.5?(again no where is this Stated)
ill respond again to this after this is Answered,
-
if Mcgral is around, could you Post the XML on Clan & IS DHSs, thanks


Edit-
ok talked with Mcgral and he says that Engines only have 3Heat Stats,
(External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate)
(Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate)
(Heat Capacity increased to 1.5)

so Ether HeatSinks in the Engine Dont Give to your Heat Cap,
which we can Test With Smurfy, 1LPL on a Mech with a 100XL+SHS vs 250XL,
(with 100+6SHS = 52%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 45Secs)
(with 250 = 52%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 41Secs)
-
cooling didnt go up when using a smaller Engine but down(odd but doesnt change the test)
(chose SHSs as they dont have diffrent interan & External HeatDiss Values)


so with this i have to beleave that HS in the Engine do increase the Heat Cap,
therefor i have to Conclude HeatSinks do increase HeatCap, no matter where they are located,
so as they do matter its 40% increase, even with mechs with only 10HeatSinks,
it matters more with more HeatSinks, but is still matters with all mechs,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 December 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[SmokeGuar]

Engine DHS (internal) has different heat cap than regular DHS (external).
Last patch only changed external DHS values.

Here is some material to go through, details are bit out of date as of this writing:

http://steamcommunit...s/?id=686548357

Edited by SmokeGuar, 28 December 2016 - 05:35 PM.

[Gyrok]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 December 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

are you saying that Dubs in the Engine(First 10) already get 1.5? not 1.1(no where is this Stated)
or are you saying that Dubs in the Engine(First 10) dont get this 1.5?(again no where is this Stated)
ill respond again to this after this is Answered,
-
if Mcgral is around, could you Post the XML on Clan & IS DHSs, thanks

No, *ALL* engines doubles get 2.0 heat cap.

[Andi Nagasia]

Gyrok, on 28 December 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

No, *ALL* engines doubles get 2.0 heat cap.

can you link Proof, me & McGral have looked,
(Im talking HeatCap increase, not HeatDissipation increase)

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

You say that, but I'm always left running around missing an SRM rack, missing an AC/20, missing an AC/10, missing 2xAC/5 all the time without having actually lost the side torso, and it's infuriating because they go poof instantly once the armor is gone.

Blame IS Structure quirk durability.

[Andi Nagasia]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 December 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

ok talked with Mcgral and he says that Engines only have 3Heat Stats,
(External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate)
(Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate)
(Heat Capacity increased to 1.5)

so Ether HeatSinks in the Engine Dont Give to your Heat Cap,
which we can Test With Smurfy, 1LPL on a Mech with a 100XL+6SHS vs 250XL,
(with 100+6SHS = 52%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 45Secs)
(with 250 = 52%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 41Secs)
-
cooling didnt go up when using a smaller Engine but down(odd but doesnt change the test)
(chose SHSs as they dont have diffrent interan & External HeatDiss Values)


so with this i have to beleave that HS in the Engine do increase the Heat Cap,
therefor i have to Conclude HeatSinks do increase HeatCap, no matter where they are located,
so as they do matter its 40% increase, even with mechs with only 10HeatSinks,
it matters more with more HeatSinks, but is still matters with all mechs,

HeatCap test,
which we can Kinda Test With Smurfy, 2LPL on a Mech with a 250XL+2DHS vs 300XL,
(with 250+2DHS = 50%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 23Secs)
(with 300 = 50%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 23Secs)
-
both are Identical, and as we know True Dubs are only your First 10DHSs, this makes sense,
nothing changes so no DHSs dont give greater Cap when in your engine, unless thats also locked to only the first 10,
which if it is, we cant Test with 100% accuracy, ill Run some more tests,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 December 2016 - 06:10 PM.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Clan SL and SPL builds are especially disgusting right now.

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 27 December 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

I can't name a sinlge Clan Omni that can put a heat sink in the legs or CT. Maybe the Nova? Maybe? It sounds like a non issue, as that means we're talking about CLan Battlemechs, which are good, but the energy ones tend to be ovens even with a DHS crammed into the legs.

Then you need to look harder. I found several omnis with DHS in the legs, fixed or no. And Clan Battlemechs simply powercreeped even harder. And to opposite side, IS mechs are unable to equip their DHS on the CT and legs. Tons of energy boating IS mechs simply can't use up to six slots, just because those CT and leg slots are useless to them.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 December 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[Dirus Nigh]

Yeonne Greene, on 27 December 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

It did exactly that.

Given equal damage, longer-range should always have inferior heat efficiency to shorter range so that there's incentive to actually bring a short-range load-out. With Clans and IS having about the same heat efficiency for the same damage output at longer range, this rule is broken. Compounding the problem is the fact that even at close range, the Clans have more heat-efficient options in the cERSL/cSPL and, barring that, have more tonnage-efficient options that allow sufficient DHS to turn them into more heat-efficient options (cMPL).

Clan lasers do 2 points more damage, at longer ranges across the board. This is after PGI raised the damage of some of the IS lasers. An IS LL does 9 points of damage when it should do 8. A Clan ER LL does 11 points when it should do 10. IS LP does 11, when it should do 9, and CLP does 13. when it should do 10. 13 damage. two points shy of the clan ER PPC and Gauss rifle. Because reasons.

Granted some of the clan heat cost has been risen from original numbers. However that was in part due to clan weapons doing more raw damage than IS to begin with. This is one of the reasons why TTK is short. If PGI wanted balance they could simply lower the damage back to the original IS values. Hell put the clans at the same value. They already have better range, less weight and slots.

THe boost to the heat cap just makes this all more patch work and exasperates the advantage.

[Bandilly]

SmokeGuar, on 28 December 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Lets remember that this latest change is not buff, it is un-nerfing to nerf that was done Dec -15.

Most likely PGI will poke stuff again with new skill tree, so this wont last. OP Clan tech my....

Math:

Clan double HS:

10 internal sinks, cap 2.0 = 20
10 external sinks, cap 1.1 = 11 "old"
10 external sinks, cap 1.5 = 15 "new old"

total old cap 31, total new cap 35, increase of 13%

/Receives Oscar from fainting

Remember to add in your default heat cap of 30 plus skills:

Old Cap =(30+20%)+20+11=67
New Heat =(30+20%)+20+15=71

That's just under a 6% increase in total heat capacity for a mech with 20 Clan DHS.

That means if you can fire two times under the old system you can fire 2.12 times under the new system, def broken...

[MauttyKoray]

Bandilly, on 27 December 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

It might have to do with skill trees. We know with ED they were going to make some changes and some of those changes are potentially happening within the skill trees themselves now. Buffing DHS might be calculated in there somewhere.

Interesting thought there...maybe Clan mechs won't get dissipation/capacity skills like they do now?

[Andi Nagasia]

ok after much Math,
Testing and Realizing that All DHSs have 1.5Cap(In/Out of Engine)
and taking into consideration the Current Stating heat Cap, here are the Results,
-
=10HeatSinks=
Old Stats= 30(Starting Cap) +11(EngineDHS) = 41
New Stats= 30(Starting Cap) +15(EngineDHS) = 45(+10%)
=20HeatSinks=
Old Stats= 30(Starting Cap) +22(EngineDHS) = 52
New Stats= 30(Starting Cap) +30(EngineDHS) = 60(+15%)
=30HeatSinks=
Old Stats= 30(Starting Cap) +33(EngineDHS) = 63
New Stats= 30(Starting Cap) +45(EngineDHS) = 75(+19%)
(this is for both IS and Clan)


with this in mind, and some more testing ive come to the Conclusion i was wrong,
i hereby retract my statement that the increase is the reason for Greater Clan Dominance,

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 28 December 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

So did it ever dawn on anyone that maybe PGI changed things this way because their data suggested the Clan mechs were under performing? I know everyone loves to know everything about Clan vs IS balance despite not having access to any of the data PGI has, but maybe, just maybe the people with full access to the data use actual facts instead of perceptions to balance the game.

Considering that this change was recent despite comp players primarily using Clan mechs under most instances.... that's a load of BS.

[Pjwned]

Sjorpha, on 28 December 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

You mean why don't we have true heat scale penalties and make mechs run ~2x as hot as they do now?

Because that would be overdoing it.

If you mean why don't we have truedubs and true heat scale penalties then...that's kind of what my post was implying.

Edited by Pjwned, 28 December 2016 - 11:36 PM.

[QuantumButler]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 December 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

are you saying that Dubs in the Engine(First 10) already get 1.5? not 1.1(no where is this Stated)
or are you saying that Dubs in the Engine(First 10) dont get this 1.5?(again no where is this Stated)
ill respond again to this after this is Answered,
-
if Mcgral is around, could you Post the XML on Clan & IS DHSs, thanks


Edit-
ok talked with Mcgral and he says that Engines only have 3Heat Stats,
(External Heat Sink Dissipation Rate)
(Engine Heat Sink Dissipation Rate)
(Heat Capacity increased to 1.5)

so Ether HeatSinks in the Engine Dont Give to your Heat Cap,
which we can Test With Smurfy, 1LPL on a Mech with a 100XL+SHS vs 250XL,
(with 100+6SHS = 52%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 45Secs)
(with 250 = 52%CoolingEfficiency(time to Overheat 41Secs)
-
cooling didnt go up when using a smaller Engine but down(odd but doesnt change the test)
(chose SHSs as they dont have diffrent interan & External HeatDiss Values)


so with this i have to beleave that HS in the Engine do increase the Heat Cap,
therefor i have to Conclude HeatSinks do increase HeatCap, no matter where they are located,
so as they do matter its 40% increase, even with mechs with only 10HeatSinks,
it matters more with more HeatSinks, but is still matters with all mechs,

Heatsinks locked in the engine are true double heatsinks. giving you 2.0 heat dissipation and 2.0 heat cap [maybe 1.5 heat cap not sure, but they for sure give 2.0 dissipation, unlike external HS].

This is why SHS are never, ever worth it, as getting dubs gives you 10 free SHS worth of everything.

This is also why some light mechs got general heat gen qyuirks, because they cannot bring a 250 engine to get access to the 10 true double heatsinks.

This is also why you always want to at least bring a 250 engine if it is at all possible.

Note dubs placed into the extra engine slots you get for every 25 rating you go up over 250 do not act as trudubs, nor do clan DHS locked in engine slots due to omnimechness count, only the up to 10 HS built into the engine by default.

Edited by QuantumButler, 29 December 2016 - 12:42 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

El Bandito, on 28 December 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:

Then you need to look harder. I found several omnis with DHS in the legs, fixed or no. And Clan Battlemechs simply powercreeped even harder. And to opposite side, IS mechs are unable to equip their DHS on the CT and legs. Tons of energy boating IS mechs simply can't use up to six slots, just because those CT and leg slots are useless to them.

That matters very little in most cases, because your 14 Endo crits have to go somewhere...

[SmokeGuar]

At this point both Smurfy and Li Songs mechlab may have not been updated with latest changes.

Do this:

Use Hunchback IIC as basis, max engine, no extra engine heatsinks, some heatsinks to torsos and weps.
Start dropping engine size and watch Heat MGMT on right. It starts going down. Why? Because smaller engines have less heatsinks. Add 1 heatsink. Notice that Heat MGMT is smaller than with engine mounted heatsinks. Ergo, engine mounted (internal, not additional) have higher heat cap.

[El Bandito]

Widowmaker1981, on 29 December 2016 - 05:07 AM, said:

That matters very little in most cases, because your 14 Endo crits have to go somewhere...

1. My Battlemasters actually prefer not equipping Endo for more DHS room, if two-slot DHS is a thing.

2. Thank you for reminding me another blatant tech difference that was not balanced by PGI. #buffsforISendoandferro