61 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

Bombast, on 29 December 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Nice! I never win anything.

To bad they didn't give these out around the time the "who would win Batman or Superman" discussions were all the rage. I'd have enough to wallpaper my living room.

[nehebkau]

@ OP,
There is a historical analogy to what you suggest. Look at the German invasion of Russia in world war 2. Same thing would have unfolded. Vastly superior technology, better trained soldiers vs. manufacturing, numbers and a willingness to whatever is needed to win.

In the end, attrition is the deciding factor.

Just like the aftermath of WW2 the victors would engage in a gross feeding frenzy on anyone weaker resulting in decades of "soft" conflicts.

Edited by nehebkau, 29 December 2016 - 12:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MeiSooHaityu, on 29 December 2016 - 06:11 AM, said:

If the Clans won at Tukayyid, I think that would be the start of the slow demise of the Inner Sphere.

The Clans would continue to push towards Terra until one clan conquered it and absorbed all other clans to form a Star League in it's image. The exact fate of the houses would depend on which Clan took Terra first (Warden or Crusader).

I don't think that the rest of the clans would have held back and watched the IS destroy whichever clan took Terra, that would go against their grand plan. Whichever Clan took Terra would instantly become one combined Star League force. The Inner Sphere forces that tried to trap the clan invader on Terra would be steam rolled from behind by the newly founded Star League.

Nah. Whoever took Terra would find themselves having to fend off assaults from five different fronts simultaneously with a very narrow corridor through which they can receive supplies. They would be easily strangled by a joint Steiner-Kurita operation while all five remaining Successor Houses throw their weight at the planet.

And they can't just give Earth up for strategic reasons, either, because that would bring too much dishonor. They would be annihilated either by the assaulting IS forces or through the resulting Trial of Grievance/Absorption from abandoning their most holy of prizes.

[The Zohan]

As a former Rangers and 10th Mountains CO with a couple deployments under my belt I am telling you this: every last ROE goes out the window the moment the opfor refuses to fight acording the rules you set (or get set by your CinC). I know we are arguing here just for the sake of it but when in doubt in the real world, you call in whatever you can get and then some before you put your life or one of your soldiers on the line.
This is why I am saying use your warships to your advantage. Wipe out what you can, then go in and mop up the rest

[The Zohan]

Oh yeah missed to quote: directed @Yeonne_Greene

[Bombast]

The Zohan, on 29 December 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

As a former Rangers and 10th Mountains CO with a couple deployments under my belt I am telling you this: every last ROE goes out the window the moment the opfor refuses to fight acording the rules you set (or get set by your CinC). I know we are arguing here just for the sake of it but when in doubt in the real world, you call in whatever you can get and then some before you put your life or one of your soldiers on the line.
This is why I am saying use your warships to your advantage. Wipe out what you can, then go in and mop up the rest

Kind of missing the point of the Clans - Their entire society was built on trying to not do all those things. Their military is built on the idea that no matter what, you can't sink low and 'cheat.' A lot of the more interesting internal Clan story is based on that ideological stand point coming into conflict with basic human nature.

Taking that away and letting the Clan's just shrug it off and do whatever is just... boring. It drops them from an interesting mega faction to nothing more then periphery pirates with delusions of grandeur.

[Y E O N N E]

The Zohan, on 29 December 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

As a former Rangers and 10th Mountains CO with a couple deployments under my belt I am telling you this: every last ROE goes out the window the moment the opfor refuses to fight acording the rules you set (or get set by your CinC). I know we are arguing here just for the sake of it but when in doubt in the real world, you call in whatever you can get and then some before you put your life or one of your soldiers on the line.
This is why I am saying use your warships to your advantage. Wipe out what you can, then go in and mop up the rest

I'm aware the rules go out the window in real combat. The point I was trying to make is that the Clans were never honorable to begin with because they knew full-well that any batchall issued and returned was a farce. They would never knowingly bid themselves low enough to the point that they thought it might be a fair fight; the whole point is to trick your opponent into bidding so low that they lose. They even did it to each other. So, really, the whole schtick is an under-handed tactic.

The IS, on the other hand, made no bones that they would carry out anything other than no-holds-barred warfare, so I have to question who is really the one being dishonorable. Not only is the motivation behind the invasion itself dishonorable, the way it was conducted was similarly dishonorable.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Nah. Whoever took Terra would find themselves having to fend off assaults from five different fronts simultaneously with a very narrow corridor through which they can receive supplies. They would be easily strangled by a joint Steiner-Kurita operation while all five remaining Successor Houses throw their weight at the planet.

And they can't just give Earth up for strategic reasons, either, because that would bring too much dishonor. They would be annihilated either by the assaulting IS forces or through the resulting Trial of Grievance/Absorption from abandoning their most holy of prizes.

That scenario is pretty much impossible right after the conquest of Terra, cause Clan Warships outnumber the IS ones several dozens to one. Only note worthy Warships the IS have is under Comstar control. All those IS Jumpships and Dropships would be blasted apart easily. Should the IS try to force its way through pirate points and somehow land sufficient force, the Clans would simply blast apart the ships, stranding the IS forces on planet, and then systematically vaporize them from space.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 December 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

The Clans would have taken Terra, and then whoever got there first would have been promptly annihilated as all IS forces suddenly converge on one spot, no-holds-barred.

Wolf should have let the Falcons take it, tbqh. Then they could have gotten rid of that slime by simply not lifting a finger.

By the pentagon worlds...you really are a wolf clansmen at heart, quiaff trothkin?

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 29 December 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

That scenario is pretty much impossible right after the conquest of Terra, cause Clan Warships outnumber the IS ones several dozens to one. Only note worthy Warships the IS have is under Comstar control. All those IS Jumpships and Dropships would be blasted apart easily. Should the IS try to force its way through pirate points and somehow land sufficient force, the Clans would simply blast apart the ships, stranding the IS forces on planet, and then systematically vaporize them from space.

In space, you don't need warships. You just need enough warheads/kinetic kill vehicles saturating an area. Warships are just targets.

Gyrok, on 29 December 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

By the pentagon worlds...you really are a wolf clansmen at heart, quiaff trothkin?

If any Clans can be labeled "good guys," it's a toss-up between Wolf and Diamond Shark. Might as well have something nice come out of it.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 December 2016 - 07:33 PM.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

In space, you don't need warships. You just need enough warheads/kinetic kill vehicles saturating an area. Warships are just targets.

Those kinetic kill vehicles (do they exists in BT?) will be taken care of easily by the Warship's aerospace support.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm aware the rules go out the window in real combat. The point I was trying to make is that the Clans were never honorable to begin with because they knew full-well that any batchall issued and returned was a farce. They would never knowingly bid themselves low enough to the point that they thought it might be a fair fight; the whole point is to trick your opponent into bidding so low that they lose. They even did it to each other. So, really, the whole schtick is an under-handed tactic.

The IS, on the other hand, made no bones that they would carry out anything other than no-holds-barred warfare, so I have to question who is really the one being dishonorable. Not only is the motivation behind the invasion itself dishonorable, the way it was conducted was similarly dishonorable.

I would just like to point out that the clans were holding back forces in reserve on Tukayyid, even Wolf who bid pretty fairly knowing what to expect (and they were the only outright winner, as well).

Add in that there were equally as many forces in the pentagon worlds *waiting* to come, if need be, and it would have been an outright blood bath on both sides. I dare say the Inner Sphere would be more devastated in that regard.

If the Clans won Tukayyid, and took Terra, then have no doubts about the other clans coming to Terra A.S.A.P., if nothing else than to bicker over spoils.

The clans fighting to hold Terra would have been of the mindset "you will take it from my cold dead fingers after 20 of you fall to get just me..."

Not to mention that there are some freakishly amazing mech jocks still in the clans at this point. Natasha Kerensky, Vlad Ward, Aidan Pryde, Phelan Ward/Kell, etc.

While the IS had many notable pilots, the tech disparity would have paved the way to make it that much more difficult, and a war of attrition eventually dwindles numbers down, especially when you are losing pilots at a 5 to 1 clip...

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 29 December 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

Those kinetic kill vehicles (do they exists in BT?) will be taken care of easily by the Warship's aerospace support.

A kinetic kill vehicle is anything that has mass and is travelling at speed. It can range from a rock to a sophisticated missile approaching you at a large fraction of the speed of light. Engaging it with aerospace will be extremely difficult, since it has no explosives and you would need to impart a lot of energy to redirect it. And the best part? These are extremely cheap munitions.

Basically, if all your warships are in one relatively small area, I win simply by throwing so many rocks at you that the only option you have is to GTFO or be annihilated.

Gyrok, on 29 December 2016 - 07:44 PM, said:

I would just like to point out that the clans were holding back forces in reserve on Tukayyid, even Wolf who bid pretty fairly knowing what to expect (and they were the only outright winner, as well).

Add in that there were equally as many forces in the pentagon worlds *waiting* to come, if need be, and it would have been an outright blood bath on both sides. I dare say the Inner Sphere would be more devastated in that regard.

If the Clans won Tukayyid, and took Terra, then have no doubts about the other clans coming to Terra A.S.A.P., if nothing else than to bicker over spoils.

The clans fighting to hold Terra would have been of the mindset "you will take it from my cold dead fingers after 20 of you fall to get just me..."

Not to mention that there are some freakishly amazing mech jocks still in the clans at this point. Natasha Kerensky, Vlad Ward, Aidan Pryde, Phelan Ward/Kell, etc.

While the IS had many notable pilots, the tech disparity would have paved the way to make it that much more difficult, and a war of attrition eventually dwindles numbers down, especially when you are losing pilots at a 5 to 1 clip...

It doesn't really matter, though. The total number of military personnel in the IS is greater than that in the Pentagon Worlds, to say nothing of the fact that the total number of people, period, is not in the Clans' favor. The 'Mechs and the skills of their pilots are also irrelevant; the war would be won from orbit. If you put all of your Warships in orbit, they will be killed as described above. If you don't put all your Warships in orbit, the ones you do place there will still be killed and the IS will otherwise have free reign to flood you with personnel.

And not only do the IS have more people, period, they have shorter supply lines, too. They are literally right there. The Clans still have to deal with fighting within the corridor, and are surrounded on all sides except behind by hostiles. It's not a good position for them.

Taking Terra is a no-win situation for the Clans unless they can first neutralize the entire military might of the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 December 2016 - 08:15 PM.

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

A kinetic kill vehicle is anything that has mass and is travelling at speed. It can range from a rock to a sophisticated missile approaching you at a large fraction of the speed of light. Engaging it with aerospace will be extremely difficult, since it has no explosives and you would need to impart a lot of energy to redirect it.

Basically, if all your warships are in one relatively small area, I win simply by throwing so many rocks at you that the only option you have is to GTFO or be annihilated.

Except no such tech exists. Closest thing the lore has is Naval Gauss, and that requires Warships to fire.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 29 December 2016 - 08:15 PM, said:

Except no such tech exists. Closest thing the lore has is Naval Gauss, and that requires Warships to fire.

Throwing asteroids at the target doesn't exist?

What, we need some voodoo lostech memory core to figure out that hurtling big rocks (even small ones) at relatively immobile targets could probably smash them to bits?

This is not complicated stuff.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 29 December 2016 - 08:17 PM.

[Valhallan]

Eh while warships are really stronk they are still breakable, even the super huge leviathan 2 was downed simply because the Wobbies hid their cap missile launcher and just burst fired when the warship got close. Also if it came down to only being space combat all those dropships will just be refitted and turned into pocket warships, which did pretty well against warships during the tantrum.

[Gyrok]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

Taking Terra is a no-win situation for the Clans unless they can first neutralize the entire military might of the Inner Sphere.

By the time Tukayyid occurs, much of that work is already done.

Yes, you have some remaining second line, or, in some cases, even third line mechs and pilots running around you could call in. However, the IS uses Tukayyid as a gambit to try to use a winner take all, throw in the kitchen sink too, attempt to stop them.

ComStar was literally pulling forces from completed Trials to reinforce lines in others. The reality of the Wolf victory was that they were fighting the forces assigned, plus units pulled from other fights. ComStar did not get a counter attack before they called it...but Wolf was already so heavily entrenched by that point it would have been a staggering loss of forces for ComStar. Focht knew this, and called it before they lost more mechs and pilots.

By the time you get to Tukayyid, Kurita is at 50% or less military effectiveness, FedCom is a little better off, and the swath cut through the IS in the invasion path would have been somewhat problematic for the clans, but only in terms of hit and runs. FWL probably could not stop fighting themselves long enough to do anything useful, other than supply mechs, and Liao was on the outs with lots of the other houses, so would likely be unpredictable.

It would be a **** position for the clans, but the IS was in an equally bad position to really do anything about it at that point as well. It would probably have turned into a BT style WW3 that lasted 50 years...

[El Bandito]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 December 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

Throwing asteroids at the target doesn't exist?

What, we need some voodoo lostech memory core to figure out that hurtling big rocks (even small ones) at relatively immobile targets could probably smash them to bits?

This is not complicated stuff.

No, it does not exist.

[cazidin]

So, it seems the consensus is basically, if the Clans won Tukayyid, the Inner Sphere would either be doomed, or use nukes.

[Y E O N N E]

El Bandito, on 29 December 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

No, it does not exist.

It does. You have engines on your ships? Strap engines to your rocks. GGclose.

And jesus, this whole thread is about a hypothetical situation.

Gyrok, on 29 December 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

By the time Tukayyid occurs, much of that work is already done.

Not from what I've read. It sounded more like the IS had only just barely started coordinating by the time ComStar issued the Tukayyid challenge.

Quote

It would be a **** position for the clans, but the IS was in an equally bad position to really do anything about it at that point as well. It would probably have turned into a BT style WW3 that lasted 50 years...

Sounds like a no-win situation to me. Sounds like everything the Clans abhor would have come to pass, kind of making their entire raison d'être moot. If they had any "honor" left at that point, they'd commit ritual suicide.