81 replies to this topic

[Vxheous]

Monkey Lover, on 30 December 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

So how many IS teams in div 1 again? Good luck fighting kdk with your awesome and Zeus...

I don't think I saw even one battle master, Zeus(other than crazy 1fwg) or awsome in the tourment. We sure as heck did t run them.

I still can't believe your defending this balance.

There is a difference between losing due to balance, and losing due to skill. In this thread, it is a skill issue. If you want to address actual balance issue, please go find Mech the Dane's balance post, as it is a very good post about the slight tech imbalance.

Do I think a 12 EVIL players in Clan will beat will be exact same 12 EVIL players in IS? Yes, 95% of the time. Would that ever happen? No, since it's physically impossible to test. FW games are a mishmash of skill/team sizes, and the fact that invasion mode gives about a 1/2 wave advantage to Defenders on every map just from a position standpoint makes it possible that IS can still compete in the current balance.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 30 December 2016 - 04:22 PM.

[Extra Guac]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

Ah... Yes there is.

A 62/68pt Clan EBJ/TBR can only get off 2 Alpha's before needing to take 6-7 sec to cool off. 120pts of dmg.

This can fire 3 times before needing to cool off. 120pts of dmg, dump that into a Clan mech CT, it's dead. Forget the torso, why maim when you can kill that big fat TBR/EBJ CT from ANY angle, even if they twist away????

This can also fire 3 times before needing to cool off, play it smart. 150pts+ of dmg... Not even a clan assault will survive it.

This can't do 3 times. But it can do 2.5 and then a follow up not long after.

Or look at a Battlemaster 2C with 5LPL

WHMs and GHPs are not far off either. They run a tad hotter, the BLK does it a tad better but it's mount points are not as good (so you need to pick a compromise).

I mean come on, there are PLENTY of options.

You are questioning balance here, balance is not as far off as you perceive it to be. You need to understand the game/mode better. Hence the warning screen when you clicked on "FP" and had to "OK" it. IS XL is a weak point, I totally support something being done there, but the issue then it is will really alter the balance substantially and overall things will need to be looked at again.

The real issue, and why you're posting, is your pilot skill needs to improve if you want to play IS mechs. Practice, learn - do.

Ok, 120 dmg from your black knight could kill an EBJ in theory. The problem is that 120 dmg can also kill you, and you might only get to do 80 dmg in that scenario because he'll fire his 2nd alpha long before you get to fire your 3rd. There's a good chance that you're dead at that point because of the XL engine.

Also: you're slower, and at a range disadvantage vs the EBJ. And you're a bigger target.

[justcallme A S H]

If you're going to walk directly at a target, without having a twisted torso (until in range), then quite frankly - you deserve to be killed because that is poor play.

In the last week there have been epic games against good IS teams now they are finally getting organised. It's been a struggle to really put that 62-68pt EBJ alpha as these guys know how to spread the dmg. You need almost an entire second of direct LOS to hit that torso... It's not easy. If a mech walks in twisted sideways, it's impossible. You have to wait to shoot, in the mean time that means potentially taking fire from other mechs elsewhere...

We had a MJ12 group vs our group (both similar size) last night. 5 BLR 2Cs with mass LPL. vs our EBJ vomit - guess what? We lost, cause we were out-traded as they used the terrain/range closure to their advantage.

There was zero balance issue there, or in the following games. It was simply better players and they beat us. I can freely admit that was a skill based losses and not balance once. I don't need to hide behind rubbish reasons if I'm out-played.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[SavageConvoy]

How can you say there is a slight tech imbalance?

So you have two engines, the most vital and essential part to a mech.
If they were balanced, then for the same rating then one would take up more space, but be more durable.
That's a trade off and keeps the scales even. So one would get less slots to use (less firepower) but would be more survivable to compensate.
But that's not at all how it is in game.
The base XL engine dies to ST loss and takes up 6 extra slots.
The clan takes up less slots and is more durable.

What compensates for this? Larger weapons?
No, the clan ones also take up less slots.
And they have the full range of ballistics and streaks.
Well surely the weapons weigh more and do less damage, right? Or shorter ranges?
Oh, well they get hot though. Which is also mitigated by their smaller heat sinks. See, that's a balancing issue right there.
Weapons make more heat? Give them smaller heat sinks to counter it. The problem is it's not balanced against the game as a whole.

So if you look at balance as a scale, I really can't see how anyone can justify this entire concept.
Clans bonuses compared to IS
Smaller and more durable Xl engines
Smaller and lighter weapons with better ranges

Clan negatives compared to IS
They get hot because they can fit so many weapons into their mechs.
IS large pulse laser is better than clans.

Clearly the answer is IS OP plz nerf

Edited by SavageConvoy, 30 December 2016 - 04:50 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

SavageConvoy, on 30 December 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

What compensates for this? Larger weapons?

Structure quirks - some mechs have high bonuses
Agility quirks - twist rate of some IS mechs is 50% higher than clan mechs
Higher tonnage rule - allowing more mechs with the above two points

As I've said the IS XL issue, is still an issue. Never denied that. It's hard one to fix as if you did it all structure buffs would instantly need to come off, and then agility ones maybe need reduction, it's hard to say - maybe total removed.

But then in Feb some of that changes with skill trees as well.

Balance now - while it's not perfect. Is the best it has been since the rescale. I can't see ANY of it being touched until March, because in Feb (I think thats Skill Trees time), then it's all literally going to be tipped on it's head again.

[Cox Devalis]

moerker, on 30 December 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

And when you face a same weightclass mech that alpha cores, while you alpha them for 20 (dakka WHM BW) You lose faith.

But it's nothing about tech inbalance, it's just a recipe for death.

[Tarl Cabot]

Until the isXL's fragility is resolved and not from structural quirks, everything else would really be a wash. Never mind that a base isERML still would not come close to equaling cERML, it would simply be a quirked ML with the same damage as the ML.

[Aiden Skye]

moerker, on 30 December 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

I read the link, So why should i be "punished" for playing lonewolf. Work alot and dont have the time to join a outfit who require you to attend to "call to arm" play togheter. Why am i not allowed to be a "newb" or not a "pro" to have fun and feel its balanced and fine. Yah i understand you guys love to bash on people like me, who doesnt have time to play the game for hour to end. Every day. Min-maxing is something i had time to do when i was young and had more time. Now i wish i could enjoy the game, in a more casual way. As alot of ppl have stated. There are many things to take in consideration. Skill, playstyle, maps, gamemechanics and trix to help you fair better.

Ok now you are just being silly. If you drop solo into the shark tank that is FW you need to accept the fact that there is a very real possibility you are going to collect a beat down. Once you've accepted that fact you will have started your journey to enlightenment.

[moerker]

Why do everyone assume i whine and talk about losing a match? i am not... I am talking about 1 v 1 balance of the mechs. Thats where my problem is. If you take a Black knight vs a Timber with meta setups. I'm pretty sure to say that the timber would win atleast 70-80% of all situations you possibly could imagine would occure on all maps we have atm. With equally skilled pilots. I dont have to explain, because you "nay-sayers" know its a fact and reason behind it.

And all this heat management you talk about. If you are skilled you managed the higher heat genereated from CLasers. Because if you put all lasers in the center of your opponent, he is vaporized and cant shoot back anyway. Or atleast you can manage to overheat and kill him on second volley. Why be afraid of a thread that does not excist if you deal with it quick...? Obviously the Heat issue Clan mechs have with their slightly higher heat generation...Doesnt seem to be such a big issue? since they constantly win with lasers and PPC. But not only that. You dont care if your opponent have better heat management if you kill him faster right? A dead mech cant shoot back.

Yes i'm sure i suck donkey-***. But i cant help but watch the leaderboards. The gap between the factions are so big. How come...? well thats because good and competetive players play the meta. That gives you highest probability to win. And thats with Clan mechs. Well.... back to topic again. So if the high heat generation are such big problems. Why arent the best players, playing IS?

FYI i played competetive WoT. You follow the meta, play the best tank that gives you highest probability to win. Thats the same here. Its the same everywhere.Yes i've played FW as a Claner with a outfit. I had a lot easier time then, then now as IS.

And to point it out, i do not only talk about FW. Its the same in QB... doh

Love all this "technical data" (that i am aware of) ppl come up with. Yes maybe on paper IS and Clans may look equal. But how they perform in-game is a different story.

Do we even wanna talk about the range bonus from Clan weapons, with the combination of the big open maps, found in QB and FW?

But hey... as ASH said, i dont understand the game and its mechanics, how things works... since you gotta be a rocket scientist to understand this game. Right?

Edited by moerker, 31 December 2016 - 04:21 AM.

[Cox Devalis]

Moerker, if you are trying to trade with your 4xac5 BW against any hi-alpha clan mech, you will always lose. But it doesn't mean BW is worse than EBJ. That's what I'm trying to say to you and to all the guys who are so much sure about clantech advantage. You have to fight the way your IS mech is supposed to fight instead of fighting the way clanners want you to fight. Listen, I see this every night - "cold" low-alpha IS mechs moving out of the cover, shoot their 20-30 alpha and get back to cover with open side torso. They do it again and dying. I can kill 5-6 of these guys in a row because they don't get basic things. If you catch the clanner in the open space close enough you can easily destroy him. But people don't care about that. People just trading 20 dmg to 68 and then say "clans are so much better than IS". Stop it already, please .

Happy new year. <3

[moerker]

Cox Devalis, on 31 December 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

Moerker, if you are trying to trade with your 4xac5 BW against any hi-alpha clan mech, you will always lose. But it doesn't mean BW is worse than EBJ. That's what I'm trying to say to you and to all the guys who are so much sure about clantech advantage. You have to fight the way your IS mech is supposed to fight instead of fighting the way clanners want you to fight. Listen, I see this every night - "cold" low-alpha IS mechs moving out of the cover, shoot their 20-30 alpha and get back to cover with open side torso. They do it again and dying. I can kill 5-6 of these guys in a row because they don't get basic things. If you catch the clanner in the open space close enough you can easily destroy him. But people don't care about that. People just trading 20 dmg to 68 and then say "clans are so much better than IS". Stop it already, please .

Happy new year. <3

Well i'm not one of them. That is basic knowledge. You want to put me in same catagory as the rest of the plebs, well dont. I love my dakka BW. So you pretty much say that i cant win trades in my Dakka BW unless i stand and wait for them to turn back against me so i can shoot without risk losing to their alpha? You dont really come up with any useful fact, besides that we already know you lose trade against a clan mech. So where is the balance? You only put gasoline on the fire here. Saying you cant win against straight up brawl against Clanmech. No you are probably right... The skill level to play clanmech is probably alot lower then IS. And alot more forgiving then playing IS. So if you fare well in a IS mech mean you are probably a better player, then if you have same performance and score, in a Clanmech?

Edited by moerker, 31 December 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[B0oN]

Funny ...
so much win in one thread again .

Cmon, spheroids, just say it aloud :

I WANT MY WIN BUTTON !

Problem is : you guys already have ALL the WIN buttons, you just gotta use them in the CORRECT way .
And in that you very hardcore fail, as I can easily tell by all the "half-informed" chatter in these nice "Clams OP, NERF PLOX" threads .
You bad spheroid players dont realize that you already outtrade at range ( IS ERLL vs. CERLL), have EZ-mode AC´s, micro-burntime lasers, tons of quirks and structure buffs and still YOU CANNOT MAKE IT WORK ?
Maybe you should get rid of all those nasty *** BAD HABITS you have when driving your mechs ... then come back after a month of playing or maybe 2 and tell us how it went .

[moerker]

B0oN, on 31 December 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Funny ...
so much win in one thread again .

Cmon, spheroids, just say it aloud :

I WANT MY WIN BUTTON !

Problem is : you guys already have ALL the WIN buttons, you just gotta use them in the CORRECT way .
And in that you very hardcore fail, as I can easily tell by all the "half-informed" chatter in these nice "Clams OP, NERF PLOX" threads .
You bad spheroid players dont realize that you already outtrade at range ( IS ERLL vs. CERLL), have EZ-mode AC´s, micro-burntime lasers, tons of quirks and structure buffs and still YOU CANNOT MAKE IT WORK ?
Maybe you should get rid of all those nasty *** BAD HABITS you have when driving your mechs ... then come back after a month of playing or maybe 2 and tell us how it went .

Oh excuse me. But i laughed at this. Obviously if IS had a I-Win-Button. Dont you think more of you would play IS in the competetive meta? Sorry but your logic falls short.

I dont ask for a Nerf. I ask for Balance, that could include a buff to IS mechs. ( hardpoints,weapon range etc) or just rework maps.

Edited by moerker, 31 December 2016 - 06:11 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Gee, here's an idea.....

Mercenaries can drop with mixed decks, Loyalists can't.

Loyalists get a HUGE discount on their faction's equipment, Mercenaries pay full price for whatever faction's contract is for and full price plus a penalty for the opposite faction's.

Not that PGI can code that.

[moerker]

Willard Phule, on 31 December 2016 - 06:11 AM, said:

Gee, here's an idea.....

Mercenaries can drop with mixed decks, Loyalists can't.

Loyalists get a HUGE discount on their faction's equipment, Mercenaries pay full price for whatever faction's contract is for and full price plus a penalty for the opposite faction's.

Not that PGI can code that.

That is acctaully a pretty good idea.

[Willard Phule]

moerker, on 31 December 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

That is acctaully a pretty good idea.

Happens once in a while.

Still don't see why Mercs shouldn't be able to mix tech on individual mechs, that kind of stuff can be moderated economically. Costs a butt ton to have it installed, on top of the price of the equipment, and puts the mech out of action for X number of hours while the work is done. Loyalists can't mix anything.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Deepfryer, on 30 December 2016 - 04:29 PM, said:

Ok, 120 dmg from your black knight could kill an EBJ in theory. The problem is that 120 dmg can also kill you, and you might only get to do 80 dmg in that scenario because he'll fire his 2nd alpha long before you get to fire your 3rd. There's a good chance that you're dead at that point because of the XL engine.

Also: you're slower, and at a range disadvantage vs the EBJ. And you're a bigger target.

This is true if you both stand absolutely still and just shoot at each other like in an old fashioned duel. In real gameplay the Blacknight (in anything resembling capable hands) easily wins this engagement at under 300 meters (assuming the lpl/ml verison)....why? The black knight is one of the most tanky IS Mechs and is considered "XL-safe" due to its hard to isolate ST hotboxes, shielding arms (which take damage when you twist) and the ability to twist well and spread the clan's longer burning lasers everywhere. Yes, you will take more damage in the black knight....however you will live to fight on and the ebon Jaguar (notoriously not tanky) will be dead, as he can't shield and spread near as well.

If you are trying to poke and trade at 450 meters+ In this scenario the EJ wins every time.

I was IS for longer than I have been Clan. Put yourselves in situations that play to the IS advantages and you will win..... IS and Clan Mechs don't "play the same" if you are playing your IS mech the same as a Clan mech (or vice Versa) you are going to have a bad time.

[moerker]

problem with Blackknight is the horrendeous low mounted hardpoints. Which is a big anticlimax. I rather go for grasshopper in that case. But as you say, stand-off duel Blackknight is great. But its doesnt work well in terrain

[Stormie]

moerker, on 31 December 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

problem with Blackknight is the horrendeous low mounted hardpoints. Which is a big anticlimax. I rather go for grasshopper in that case. But as you say, stand-off duel Blackknight is great. But its doesnt work well in terrain

Did you read what ANY of the other posters in this thread have said?
DO NOT 'stand off duel' using IS tech (unless you set your deck for this play style specifically beforehand).
DO get close, twist to spread clan laser damage to arms or across your whole mech because clan burn time is bad. Do use your comparatively short burntime to focus specific components (CT) that enemy often cant adequately shield (EBJ/TBR/NTG)

[Stonebiter]

Hello guys,

I really think that the IS tech is fine and there isn't a balance issue. The problems are the pilots. I'm a IS pilot by myself, not a good one by the way and i become stomped regularly too. But i know i'm bad and when i watch a lot of other IS pilots i see that they aren't better at all. 2 weeks ago i watched Bear Claws stream and he was playing FW on IS side. Man i tell you he ripped off organised clan units almost alone. 2K+ damage in every match. In 1 match he had 17 kills alone. The funny thing was that his teammates were not the best ones mostly PUG the opponents were 9 -SA- Members . It was really a pleasure to watch and it has shown to me that the pilots are the keypoint not the tech. We IS players just have to become better players and better organised, then we can put the clans back into their place.

What we need is strategies on the maps. Thats something what we should work on. Perhaps we should make some Map analysis in the forums to help new players where to go and which mechs they should bring. Drop deck suggestions with loadouts would be good. I know it from myself its hard for me to decide where i should go with my mech and when nobody makes the call then the team runs around like chickens. I would make the call when i know what i should do and what a good strategie would be. Which is another problem we need more players which take the lead in the PUGs. But for that they need to know what to do

Thats my post for today perhaps we could bring something up next year.

Edited by Stonebiter, 31 December 2016 - 09:06 AM.