366 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

I'm not sure why this Problem Issue is taboo to try and fix as opposed to all the others.

Because PGI has "fixed" it. What we have now is the least worst option out of a bunch of bad options.

I'd love to bring a duo in the solo que, it would be a great tool for getting friends into the game, I absolutely agree with that point.

The problem is the same thing were doing now, it would be less than a week before duo que would be complained about on the forums, claims of snyc dropping the second more than 2 matching tags showed up, and pretty much everything else that has been discussed in the last 14 pages of this thread.

The real "fix" is a larger player population.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

"We're not happy about it but that doesn't mean we actually want anything to we can change without screwing over someone"

Fixed that for you, again, you enjoy misrepresenting our argument. The best fix for this is a larger population, until then we are left with what we have because this is the least worst option.

[Deathlike]

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Would you like to be my friend, Mischief?

Can you think of one f***ing person in this entire forum willing to drop with random T3s nobody likes, even ones perfectly willing to eat that tonnage penalty larger groups inflict so they can have their Kodiaks or Marauder IICs? G'head - give me an excuse to run my Vipers. My Medusa is only my favorite 'Mech in my whole 150+ stable as of right now, and I even relented and invested in a Purifier recently for Cute Fox topgunning shenans. Doesn't really matter, though. Because people have to actually have a friends list before they can drop with people in it.

Do we really have to go over all the reasons why 'git moar frens, scrub' is a bad answer?

I've tried introducing the friends I already have to MWO. With the exception of one masochist, they've all eventually told me to piss off because this game is a nightmare to learn and the Groupocalypse Valley-of-Death queue does not remotely help. Maker's done the same, with equivalent results.

This is MWO, not an online dating sim.

I don't have a problem dropping with random T3s, it happens all the time (because, MM is RNGesus). If I'm grouped with them (for whatever the reason) AND we're losing... things will change. Telling people not to rush ahead, but they keep doing it repeatedly and dying often... there will be a point where that issue is on the other player involved. That's just putting it nicely.

Quote

So we're back to "duo/trio guys get to take it in the #ss because somebody has to, it can't be solos, and we don't want it to be MilSpecs, either"? Awesome.

I'm not sure why this Problem Issue is taboo to try and fix as opposed to all the others. "We're not happy about it but that doesn't mean we actually want anything to change" is the same thing as "We're perfectly A-OK with this". That hasn't been okay for the vast majority of Problem Issues in MWO for as long as I can remember; why's it okay here?

That's not what we're saying at all, and totally misrepresenting the argument from the beginning.

Putting words on people's mouths is wrong on so many fundamental levels.

Say what you mean and mean what you say... but SERIOUSLY DO NOT MINCE OTHER PEOPLE'S WORDS.

[Mystere]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 January 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

I know you get upset on these sort of discussions, but you have a serious problem misrepresenting people's arguments.

Tell me about it.

[Lukoi Banacek]

P.s. 1453, you can run in our casual group anytime. We run all kinds of mechs and builds without an issue. We just dont expect to win more than 1:1 in that group. Its a good time.

[Mystere]

Lukoi Banacek, on 04 January 2017 - 01:12 PM, said:

1453's? If that is the case, that's a shame really.

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Mystere denigrates me mostly because I refuse to admit that Cone of Failure is the single required magical silver-bullet Make MWO Great Again(C) fix he continues to erroneously insist it would be. We butt heads over it constantly. For the most part you can safely ignore anything either of us has to say directly about the other.

See, 1453 is at it again! It's all misrepresentations or outright fat ******* lies.

Although I am not opposed to it, CoF has never been my preferred solution. A convergence based solution is. He does not even know the difference at the very basic level, given that he keeps on insisting that convergence involves random numbers.

It's sad really, very very sad.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 January 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

... again, you enjoy misrepresenting our argument ...

Deathlike, on 04 January 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

... totally misrepresenting the argument from the beginning.

Putting words on people's mouths is wrong on so many fundamental levels.

Say what you mean and mean what you say... but SERIOUSLY DO NOT MINCE OTHER PEOPLE'S WORDS.

Is everybody now getting the picture with this guy?

Edited by Mystere, 04 January 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[DarthPeanut]

These threads never change over the years.

I would love to see some hard stats on this from PGI because it seem embellished that there is a constant fractional amount of the player base ruining all of group queue till the end of time (as it has been so dramatically implied). Especially now when it seems a lot of the better units are less active due to tourney burnout or just burnout in general. We all have bad matches or even runs of bad matches but without real stats (or even some stats) it seems like an inadequate sample size to scream bloody murder on the forums over.

None the less... I keep seeing people say these groups ruin the experience for "new" players and how the premade/ tryhard/ whatever 1% or 5% are the cause. Why is no one questioning the match making where a brand new or even reasonably new player is meeting the 1% or even 5% of this queue stomping top group who are consistently dominant. LOL, nope cannot be the match making... blame the players who group in group queue!

The skill gap in this game is absolutely HUGE and it gets even larger in groups. The match making is as much the issue as anything and always has been. At this point, the ranking system is so heavily saturated by the participation bar/ tier rating nonsense it is making matches where you literally just have to laugh at how obviously imbalanced it is.

Also right now big groups 8-12 are nerfed the hardest they have even been with diminishing tonnage to the point that most anyone who can do math is not running them. It is very difficult for a large low tonnage group to eat through the sheer armor available to multiple small groups. I am much less worried about seeing a 12 than I am a 4-6 of decent players, given the available tonnage of each. That is also assuming the smaller group is using their tonnage and not dropping like a 2 man in commandos or something. Sadly I have seen that all to often happen though, and really no one to blame but yourself if you are not dropping in reasonable tonnage for your allowed amount.

Anyways I would love to see PGI give us some overall group queue stats... win loss, tonnages of the matches, group sizes, etc because until they do this is all pretty much a casual conversation with general comments or opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion by all means but it is hardly actionable material without data to support it.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 04 January 2017 - 04:49 PM.

[Mystere]

DarthPeanut, on 04 January 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

None the less... I keep seeing people say these groups ruin the experience for "new" players and how the premade/ tryhard/ whatever 1% or 5% are the cause. Why is no one questioning the match making where a brand new or even reasonably new player is meeting the 1% or even 5% of this queue stomping top group who are consistently dominant. LOL, nope cannot be the match making... blame the players who group in group queue!

I think pretty much almost everybody agrees any idealized matchmaker will be hard pressed to work under the current population numbers.

DarthPeanut, on 04 January 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Anyways I would love to see PGI give us some overall group queue stats... win loss, tonnages of the matches, group sizes, etc because until they do this is all pretty much a casual conversation with general comments or opinions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion by all means but it is hardly actionable material without data to support it.

That would indeed be good to have.

[MischiefSC]

1453 R, on 04 January 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

Mystere denigrates me mostly because I refuse to admit that Cone of Failure is the single required magical silver-bullet Make MWO Great Again(C) fix he continues to erroneously insist it would be. We butt heads over it constantly. For the most part you can safely ignore anything either of us has to say directly about the other.


I don't know, either. If I did I'd fix it. I can tell when it's my own derp-up that drops me in a match, when I let my desire to hit the enemy draw me out further than I should've gone or when I pursue a kill too hard. I can tell when sheer bad luck, such as being the one to discover where the other guys' ten-deep firing line is with my face, gets me done in.

But my overall luck in Groupocalypse queue seems to be truly horrific, to a level that does not at all correlate to my experiences in Puglandia. Maker concurs, though he's a dedicated Dark Souls player and feels like any game he wins has somehow cheated him of a Proper Challenge, so I'm not too sure about him. Obviously that's a 'me' problem and I just need to make eight million T1 friends in an afternoon to fix it, but I'm not arguing out of my waste disposal chute for no reason. If I didn't feel there was an issue that required addressing I wouldn't insist there was.


Would you like to be my friend, Mischief?

Can you think of one f***ing person in this entire forum willing to drop with random T3s nobody likes, even ones perfectly willing to eat that tonnage penalty larger groups inflict so they can have their Kodiaks or Marauder IICs? G'head - give me an excuse to run my Vipers. My Medusa is only my favorite 'Mech in my whole 150+ stable as of right now, and I even relented and invested in a Purifier recently for Cute Fox topgunning shenans. Doesn't really matter, though. Because people have to actually have a friends list before they can drop with people in it.

Do we really have to go over all the reasons why 'git moar frens, scrub' is a bad answer?

I've tried introducing the friends I already have to MWO. With the exception of one masochist, they've all eventually told me to piss off because this game is a nightmare to learn and the Groupocalypse Valley-of-Death queue does not remotely help. Maker's done the same, with equivalent results.

This is MWO, not an online dating sim.




So we're back to "duo/trio guys get to take it in the #ss because somebody has to, it can't be solos, and we don't want it to be MilSpecs, either"? Awesome.

I'm not sure why this Problem Issue is taboo to try and fix as opposed to all the others. "We're not happy about it but that doesn't mean we actually want anything to change" is the same thing as "We're perfectly A-OK with this". That hasn't been okay for the vast majority of Problem Issues in MWO for as long as I can remember; why's it okay here?

So what you're missing though is that your solution doesn't work with the current population and you're looking to negatively impact a large segment of players (people who drop with more than 4 or pretty much everyone in pug queue) so that you can drop with 1 friend, derp or help a new player, and not have to worry about playing against bigger, more coordinated groups.

Beyond which as has been stated repeatedly the same thing will happen as happened before when group were in 'pug' queue - significant imbalance.

[Bilbo]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

So what you're missing though is that your solution doesn't work with the current population and you're looking to negatively impact a large segment of players (people who drop with more than 4 or pretty much everyone in pug queue) so that you can drop with 1 friend, derp or help a new player, and not have to worry about playing against bigger, more coordinated groups.

Beyond which as has been stated repeatedly the same thing will happen as happened before when group were in 'pug' queue - significant imbalance.

Groups of two or three once 12v12 came in wasn't really an issue. They pulled the small groups from the solo queue to facilitate decent wait times in the group queue, which were apparently horrendous even without trying to balance teams.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

And the NPE wont be fixed by allowing duos or trios into solo queue or capping group queue regardless.

I just picked this one to quote.

Right now, some of the issue of allowing at least duos into the solo queue is based on how the Tier average handling. Remove the averaging. And allow two options for duos and soloists. Their primary queue or primary queue + other queue but no option for the other queue.

Solo-type queue - only 1 duo per side - leader selects either Group or both Group/Solo, but no option for Solo only.

• T1 + T5 = average T3 / suggestion - no averaging Tier. They are dropped in T1
  
• T1+T2 would drop in T1.
  
• T1+T1 into T1.
  
• T4+T5 into T4
  
• T4 + T5 vet on new account, into T4.

Reverse it for Group queue / duos only option

• T1+T3 seen as T3
  
• T1+T5 seen as T5

********************


Solo players would have the option to select Solo queue only Default, or have a check mark for both Solo/Group while no option Group only.


*******************
I would also suggest is a revamp of the PSR to be closer to a zero change effect instead of current heavy leaning to moving up the tiers, and other factors. A reset of PSR? Not a complete reset. Those below 50% in a tier would reset to 0% of that tier, those above 50% would be reset to 50% mark.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 04 January 2017 - 05:54 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Holy crap! This thread...so much angst about not wanting to play well with others. I thought we had gone off the deep end at about page 8. This is some impressive chatter for a topic that I for one never really was aware was a serious issue of complaint. Learn something new every day.

[Bilbo]

Bud Crue, on 04 January 2017 - 05:57 PM, said:

Holy crap! This thread...so much angst about not wanting to play well with others. I thought we had gone off the deep end at about page 8. This is some impressive chatter for a topic that I for one never really was aware was a serious issue of complaint. Learn something new every day.

The 2 and 3 man group getting stomped by larger groups complaint has come up quite often since they folded them into the group queue forever ago. Not sure how you missed it, though the whole premades are evil angle hasn't been used in some time. Hard to make complaints about premades when you are, by definition, one of them.

[Bud Crue]

Bilbo, on 04 January 2017 - 06:03 PM, said:

The 2 and 3 man group getting stomped by larger groups complaint has come up quite often since they folded them into the group queue forever ago. Not sure how you missed it, though the whole premades are evil angle hasn't been used in some time. Hard to make complaints about premades when you are, by definition, one of them.

I suppose. Meh. I play a team game with a loose affiliation of others that come and go as part of the team. I really had no idea others thought group queue would be played in some other manner.

[MacClearly]

Deathlike, on 03 January 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

The fundamental problem with the group queue is that when people do stuff "on their own" instead of helping the group, these people lose far more often than not. It has less to do with skill... rather it's people not willing to work together.

Skill discrepancies will exist and are virtually unavoidable (low population... of players, and particularly of the skilled variety), but ultimately people not willing to work together are the greatest core reason why your team loses.

In a game where teamplay is paramount, those that do their own thing are generally a detriment to the team.

I appreciate what your saying and the spirit of what you are saying is correct. I belong to a unit however and if four or five of us need to practice ppc pop tarting together and end up on a team full of brawlers.... Still we can work together but in my two ppc Blackjack I am not going to be in on the push. Too many don't appreciate all aspects and styles of the game or want to expand. Can't tell you how many times I have been berated for not being front line. People have to be accepting that just as in quick play you can get what you get. Even if that is some window licker bringing an lrm Atlas...

[Bilbo]

Bud Crue, on 04 January 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

I suppose. Meh. I play a team game with a loose affiliation of others that come and go as part of the team. I really had no idea others thought group queue would be played in some other manner.

To be fair, when I quit playing in the group queue, if you were only playing with one or two friends, you might as well be playing in the solo queue for all the communication going on outside of your group because everyone was on their personal voip servers. I would have thought that the in game voip would have removed that as an issue.

[Wil McCullough]

wow, what a thread. the idea to merge 2-man groups with solo is ridiculous on so many levels.

basically, the only argument i can see for merging 2-mans with solo is this:

you're sick of getting stomped by good teamwork and above average skill, so *** the guys in solo, you want the opportunity to grab the other end of the same stick and club seals using the exact same "op" combination.

this isn't about getting reamed by 12-mans. it's about you being unable to muster up the advantages you want on an equal playing field, so screw the equal playing field, let's load the dice up in your favor amirite?

it isn't even about the NPE, is it? if it was, the most direct solution would be to implement MM in group queue. potatoes vs potatoes, t1 tryhards vs t1 tryhards. problem solved. instead we get this stretched out narrative of "what if i have a friend i want to play with who's new" as an incoherent excuse to get groups into solo queue.

WHAT.

maybe in a game like LoL with a younger player base, forumites would have wool over their eyes, but come on, this is mwo. we've all been around the block enough to see through what you're trying to pull.

[Mystere]

Tarl Cabot, on 04 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Solo players would have the option to select Solo queue only Default, or have a check mark for both Solo/Group while no option Group only.

Why the half step? Why not give solos the full set of options. What would be the harm in that ... whiny solos crying on the forums being the exception, of course?

Edited by Mystere, 04 January 2017 - 07:36 PM.

[TKSax]

Bilbo, on 04 January 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

Groups of two or three once 12v12 came in wasn't really an issue. They pulled the small groups from the solo queue to facilitate decent wait times in the group queue, which were apparently horrendous even without trying to balance teams.

I am not sure you are remembering that clearly, the 12 v 12 Que was dead as in no one played except when a few of the comp team would from up 12 mans to do some on the fly round robins. People constantly complained about 4 man groups in the the non 12 man que, so PGI changed to what we have now a pure Solo Que and a Group Que.

My Experience is generally pretty good in the Group Que as well, the Solo que is the real wild card, my performance/stats/match score are pretty much the same in the Solo Que, just the tteammatesI paired with vary by a huge degree.

[Bilbo]

TKSax, on 04 January 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

I am not sure you are remembering that clearly, the 12 v 12 Que was dead as in no one played except when a few of the comp team would from up 12 mans to do some on the fly round robins. People constantly complained about 4 man groups in the the non 12 man que, so PGI changed to what we have now a pure Solo Que and a Group Que.

My Experience is generally pretty good in the Group Que as well, the Solo que is the real wild card, my performance/stats/match score are pretty much the same in the Solo Que, just the tteammatesI paired with vary by a huge degree.

The time you speak of was 4-man or 12-man groups only. They then went to groups of any size and allowing small groups in the solo queue. They then had to force the small groups into the group queue to reduce wait times in the group queue.