42 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Besh, on 10 January 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Ok, how do you counter the fact that unexperienced Players, or "not haves", simply may not have a specialized Build for a 'Mech they feel comfortable with for a particular Map ?

Well, most of the newer players are default gated to fighting their own tier (starting @ T5). Then again, if you're playing in the group queue, one would hope someone more experienced would remind/inform you of what you should bring at that point in time.

Even then, you can bring range to a traditionally brawly map like Bog... while in some modes brawling on Alpine is still doable to a degree.

Sometimes if you practice and learn things, you can make the best of a bad situation. It would be nice if people considered that, but whatever...

[Besh]

Deathlike, on 10 January 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

Well, most of the newer players are default gated to fighting their own tier (starting @ T5). Then again, if you're playing in the group queue, one would hope someone more experienced would remind/inform you of what you should bring at that point in time.

Even then, you can bring range to a traditionally brawly map like Bog... while in some modes brawling on Alpine is still doable to a degree.

Sometimes if you practice and learn things, you can make the best of a bad situation. It would be nice if people considered that, but whatever...

I am afraid I do not understand .

You realize I am arguing AGAINST being able to pick the 'Mech you want AFTER Map selection ?

Edited by Besh, 10 January 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Besh, on 10 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

No.

Allowing people to somehow pic a 'Mech specialized for a given Map and mode would be bad . Think "disparity between exprienced/unexperienced Players, and have/havenots" to start with .

Those are pretty minor hurdles compared to any other MMO pvp game where you might spend years to get some armor that everyone else has. Players want challenges like this rather than the 2-3 year grind for some crappy piece of armor. I started a new character and I had 3 mediums and 3 heavies in about 3 weeks and so could have oufitted a class drop deck in 2 weeks or less.

Anything that adds Skills to learn to simulation game is good and needed for game depth.

[Besh]

Lightfoot, on 10 January 2017 - 04:02 PM, said:

Those are pretty minor hurdles compared to any other MMO pvp game where you might spend years to get some armor that everyone else has. Players want challenges like this rather than the 2-3 year grind for some crappy piece of armor. I started a new character and I had 3 mediums and 3 heavies in about 3 weeks and so could have oufitted a class drop deck in 2 weeks or less.

Anything that adds Skills to learn to simulation game is good and needed for game depth.

I am not only mentioning "haves/not haves"; but also "experienced/unexperienced" for good reason .

Also, I do not compare MW:O with any other MMO . The points I am making have nothing to do with "grind for amor" or 'Mech .

What I am trying to get across is that it would be VERY easy for established and wealthy Players to simply buy, equip and run THE, or close to THE perfect 'Mech for any given Map. Chassis, Variant, Weaponry, Modules and all ( if they dont already own it that is), and subsequently bring that PERFECT 'Mech into every QP Game they play .

Instead of just fighting my points by trying to devalue them, give some actual REASONING how you would tackle the resulting Problem(s) mentioned by me ?

Having 200mill Cbills in the Bank with thousands of Matches played, it wont be much skill needed to bring the perfect 'Mech for any 'Map if you were allowed to select 'Mech AFTER Map Selection . A new, poor, or less experienced Player...or one who is all 3...wont be able to, at all .

How do you tackle that ?

Edited by Besh, 10 January 2017 - 04:19 PM.

[Deathlike]

Besh, on 10 January 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

I am afraid I do not understand .

You realize I am arguing AGAINST being able to pick the 'Mech you want AFTER Map selection ?

I get that, but I don't care either way (I lean towards leaving it as is, but then again, it doesn't bother me).

It doesn't matter about the logic anymore... smart people will take advantage of this... people with limited dropdecks (usually newer players) always get screwed, but honestly it doesn't change the potatoes or the farmers one bit (or the MM or anything related).

[Mystere]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 January 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

NO.

If you happen to get a map that is against your build, that is just how it is. When we get to the COH level of maps then you guys will learn.

COH?

[LordNothing]

wouldnt mind being able to change mech on the post vote screen. that way when polar comes up i can trade my brawler in for a ranged build. catch is i own 118 mechs, so displaying a full list of options is a no go. you will probibly want to limit the options to mechs of the same weight class, or even more restrictive, the same weight, or even only allow variants of your current chassis. the last one sounds like the best, especially since the 3 mech rule is going out the window, pgi needs to give players a reason to carry multiple variants, or loose one of the selling points for their mechpacks. the number of varients is small enough to fit this list on the post vote screen, so you can quickly change up to a more suitable build in the 5 or so seconds you have to make up your mind.

[Lightfoot]

Besh, on 10 January 2017 - 04:07 PM, said:

I am not only mentioning "haves/not haves"; but also "experienced/unexperienced" for good reason .

Also, I do not compare MW:O with any other MMO . The points I am making have nothing to do with "grind for amor" or 'Mech .

What I am trying to get across is that it would be VERY easy for established and wealthy Players to simply buy, equip and run THE, or close to THE perfect 'Mech for any given Map. Chassis, Variant, Weaponry, Modules and all ( if they dont already own it that is), and subsequently bring that PERFECT 'Mech into every QP Game they play .

Instead of just fighting my points by trying to devalue them, give some actual REASONING how you would tackle the resulting Problem(s) mentioned by me ?

Having 200mill Cbills in the Bank with thousands of Matches played, it wont be much skill needed to bring the perfect 'Mech for any 'Map if you were allowed to select 'Mech AFTER Map Selection . A new, poor, or less experienced Player...or one who is all 3...wont be able to, at all .

How do you tackle that ?

That's how MechWarrior has always been played for PvP scenarios. Players pick the map. You go to Mechlab and outfit a Mech for that map. You drop into the match. Only MWO failed to be able to utilize this feature of MechWarrior. As a result they had to make all the weapons vanilla-mode balanced to be of no real tactical value. AC20's travel at the speed of SRMs and SRMs crawl to their targets. LRMs are mostly useless. Mechs run hot with Ghost Heat. All because players will bring any load-out at any time and all load-outs must have no advantage.

I don't see a disparity of wealth or assets in MWO. The character I created 4 months ago for Inner Sphere is just as successful as the original character despite having just a few modules and 20 or so mechs. Modules are mostly just fluff and can be traded to different mechs. Length of playing time grants few gameplay buffs, really all you have are more mechs, but you are only taking one. So there is no disparity that would harm new players, no skills they could not quickly master. I still think it's insane most players play MWO with a Mouse as there is nothing so disparaging to new players as having to pilot a mech with a Mouse.

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 January 2017 - 07:01 PM.

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 January 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

CW is also a broken game mode so why are we using that as an example?

Now, now. Pugs vs. premades aside, I enjoy QP maps on CW more than pug matches, or Invasion maps in CW.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 10 January 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

I enjoy QP maps on CW more than pug matches

I can't say the same, maybe it is just because the spud farming takes longer because you might have to bleed through more targets.

[Beaching Betty]

I say this is pretty dumb..

[BLOOD WOLF]

Mystere, on 10 January 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

COH?

Company of Heroes

[Lightfoot]

I can't believe players are concerned about outfitting a Mech for the world they are dropping on. This is the primary reason Mechlab exists. You outfit your mech for the mission. Your decisions in Mechlab have purpose and consequences and you learn new skills. That's gameplay depth. Depth that MWO has not been able to deliver.

Lacking this, MWO has diminished all the weapons into vanilla-mode so that they convey no tactical ability. If a weapon did have a tactical ability it was nerfed to no tactical ability due to whining by players complaining they were destroyed by some tactic. That's not the MechWarrior I know from the past. In those earlier games the weapons did not match-up, they conferred a tactic that gave the player an advantage if they could employ it. The map environment enabled or blocked those tactics, but since players were instructed to configure their mechs for the map there was no OP weapon or tactic. But you had weapons that enabled players to use a tactic. Those tactics created much more dynamic matches where often one team would seek to use a surprise tactic.

MWO suffers from repetitive matches dominated by lasers. Lasers because all the weapons are vanilla-mode and laser function is simplest being point & click over large distances. You can see that right? Wasn't so in MechWarrior 4 and MechWarrior 3. Lasers were good, but not dominant even though they had no duration. That's all because of Mechlab after map selection which allowed the weapons to enable tactics.

[Cy Mitchell]

I like the challenge of having to adapt my Mech and its loadout to a variety of situations. Short range brawler on Polar? Darn. Time to buckle the chin strap and work those trenches. Laser boat on Terra or Desert? Uh-oh. Time to work on my heat management skills. LRM boat on HPG or Crimson? Huh. I guess positioning will be everything.

Sometimes I adapt brilliantly and sometimes I fail miserably but I try to learn and improve in any case. I find the challenge interesting and fun. Random map selection and mode selection would be OK but I think the ability to select your Mech for each Map would detract from the variety and challenge aspect of the game which means, for me, it would be less fun.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Rampage, on 11 January 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

I like the challenge of having to adapt my Mech and its loadout to a variety of situations. Short range brawler on Polar? Darn. Time to buckle the chin strap and work those trenches. Laser boat on Terra or Desert? Uh-oh. Time to work on my heat management skills. LRM boat on HPG or Crimson? Huh. I guess positioning will be everything.

Sometimes I adapt brilliantly and sometimes I fail miserably but I try to learn and improve in any case. I find the challenge interesting and fun. Random map selection and mode selection would be OK but I think the ability to select your Mech for each Map would detract from the variety and challenge aspect of the game which means, for me, it would be less fun.

This is part of why I prefer clan mechs. More tonnage less slots used more hybrid capacity. I'd like to see you fit 4 SRM4s, 2 PPC/LPLs, and 2 gauss rifles on an IS assault mech and still cruise over 60 KPH, have plenty of ammo for all the wepaons, and heat stability.

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 11 January 2017 - 01:25 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

Snazzy Dragon, on 11 January 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

This is part of why I prefer clan mechs. More tonnage less slots used more hybrid capacity. I'd like to see you fit 4 SRM4s, 2 PPC/LPLs, and 2 gauss rifles on an IS assault mech and still cruise over 60 KPH, have plenty of ammo for all the wepaons, and heat stability.

I only use Clan. I do not have a Mech that I use that can fit 4 SRM4s, 2 PPC/LPLs, and 2 gauss rifles. What is your point again?

[Dread Render]

Rampage, on 11 January 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

I like the challenge of having to adapt my Mech and its loadout to a variety of situations. Short range brawler on Polar? Darn. Time to buckle the chin strap and work those trenches. Laser boat on Terra or Desert? Uh-oh. Time to work on my heat management skills. LRM boat on HPG or Crimson? Huh. I guess positioning will be everything.

Sometimes I adapt brilliantly and sometimes I fail miserably but I try to learn and improve in any case. I find the challenge interesting and fun. Random map selection and mode selection would be OK but I think the ability to select your Mech for each Map would detract from the variety and challenge aspect of the game which means, for me, it would be less fun.

You must be a better pilot than me for sure... I need all the help I can get. when i face the situations you mention I try my best but its brutal. to be honest, most of the time I just charge in and Rambo. Once in a while it works out ;-p
But I would much rather be able to select a Mech that is appropriate to the map. I mean we do vote for the map Before the drop so a Drop Deck seems reasonable to me.

[Lightfoot]

Rampage, on 11 January 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

I like the challenge of having to adapt my Mech and its loadout to a variety of situations. Short range brawler on Polar? Darn. Time to buckle the chin strap and work those trenches. Laser boat on Terra or Desert? Uh-oh. Time to work on my heat management skills. LRM boat on HPG or Crimson? Huh. I guess positioning will be everything.

Sometimes I adapt brilliantly and sometimes I fail miserably but I try to learn and improve in any case. I find the challenge interesting and fun. Random map selection and mode selection would be OK but I think the ability to select your Mech for each Map would detract from the variety and challenge aspect of the game which means, for me, it would be less fun.

Mechlab is for outfitting your mech for the map you are about to fight on. I mean that's it. MWO has never been able to get a PUG launch scenario that would allow 24 players to Mechlab before launching and not have the game launch without half the players still in Mechlab. This is a valid workaround to that where the player would pick a mech of choice from a drop deck similar to how FW works.

You know, you're going to launch into a MechWarrior 5 mission and the first thing that will happen is your chief engineer will advise you of the mission terrain and what load-out might be best for your mission. Anyway, you will Mechlab for the mission after hearing the mission brief.

The challenge of knowing the map is greater than the one of having the wrong load-out.

[Nameless King]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 10 January 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:

Mkay so just a thought. Why don't we take the current CW system on over to QP?
Instead of voting, you get assigned with a specific map and mode. However, you get to choose what Mech to drop with. I'm thinking around 20 seconds, about the same time the voting process in QP takes. While I know some people have over a bajillion Mechs, and navigating through those in 20 seconds is not enough, we could add in a filter (like favorites) or just have drop decks. Also if a pilot doesn't pick a drop deck, their current selected Mech before hittign the Launch button will be their used Mech.

I feel like there would be less people getting screwed over because the popular vote decides to go for a map that completely go against their Mechs/Builds. The only problem I can think of is the overall tonnage and the 3/3/3/3 system basically thrown out of the window. It's not like the 3/3/3/3 system worked anyway

What do you guys think? Is this really dumb or is this something that could work out when done correctly?

No, no, no

Random is the only way

[Revis Volek]

PGI has said a few times they dont want people to have the ability to see what the map is before hand because then they can take OP mechs for the map.


I kid you not, if i can find where Russ said it i will post it. He wants us to suffer in QP, he has said so himself.


They want the RANDOM in that mode because I think they actually think it works as a balancing mechanic.

Edited by Revis Volek, 11 January 2017 - 03:19 PM.