58 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

RestosIII, on 26 January 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Even as a joke build, that armor placement is making me genuinely angry.

Its built to survive a full alpha from most common energy light mechs without even opening up structure, can't have them damaging your precious lurms. The enemies you can't see are so much more dangerous than the ones infront of you...

[Anjian]

I find that missile based systems (not just in this game but also in other games) to be highly team dependent. If you are team support, the team there is an important factor. If your team is already losing, you can't push and carry to be a decisive factor to turn around the game. I started doing some experiments with an Archer and a Vulture, I may expand on those further.

[The6thMessenger]

Anjian, on 27 January 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

I find that missile based systems (not just in this game but also in other games) to be highly team dependent. If you are team support, the team there is an important factor. If your team is already losing, you can't push and carry to be a decisive factor to turn around the game. I started doing some experiments with an Archer and a Vulture, I may expand on those further.

It doesn't have to be team-dependent. You can get your own locks.

[Anjian]

The6thMessenger, on 27 January 2017 - 02:28 AM, said:

It doesn't have to be team-dependent. You can get your own locks.

What I mean is that the missileer tends to be the back system. Someone else needs to push.

[The6thMessenger]

Anjian, on 27 January 2017 - 02:33 AM, said:

What I mean is that the missileer tends to be the back system. Someone else needs to push.

Sure.

[The Basilisk]

The6thMessenger, on 13 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

I don't own a Stalker, so i tried the LRM-Boat Trial. I honestly don't have good expectations, in fact i was just going through the motions, i don't even care that i die. I did followed my team though, i am with them at most times except the part where i got left behind. I got my own locks, even when under fire i tried my best to hold the locks before i return to cover.



That is just only one game, likewise my enemies weren't top players, nor i am a good LRM player to the likes of Novakraine. Hell, i don't think that's a good score.

However i do feel that LRMs are not that really bad, they need buffs sure, but i do feel that the hate should be directed more to pilots than the weapon itself, cause i just played it not like a potato and i managed to successfully pilot it.

Yes LRMs are bad but you can do ok if you are a realy good player.
Its like the question if a ship mounted giant rock throwing catapult is good compared to a General Atomics railgun.
Sure both can rip giant holes into a city.
Its simply a matter of comparision and a short reality check.
What can I do with a LRM that I can not do with a Gauss Rifle, a PPC, a ERLLaser or a light AC.

Indirect fire you might say...well wouldn't it be easyer to just replace the spotter mech that is required for indirect fire with one that carrys a nice combo of Gauss and PPC ? And when youre at it just replace those LRMs with some Lasers and get two mechs for ranged bombardment where you got one and a spotter instead.
And that is just one example.
Yea, yea, don't use scout mechs as spotter, its teamwork blabla everyone is a spotter bla

My argument is that LRMs require more support from your team to be used effectively than they deliver support to the team.
LRMs require teamwork instead of supporting teamwork.

The LRM, as they is implemented in MWO is simply an impractical weapon that requires too many factors to match and is too easiely countered.
And through all discussions I never encountered an argument that could make the LRM worth its effort to use.

Edited by The Basilisk, 27 January 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The Basilisk, on 27 January 2017 - 03:06 AM, said:

Yes LRMs are bad but you can do ok if you are a realy good player.
Its like the question if a ship mounted giant rock throwing catapult is good compared to a General Atomics railgun.
Sure both can rip giant holes into a city.
Its simply a matter of comparision and a short reality check.
What can I do with a LRM that I can not do with a Gauss Rifle, a PPC, a ERLLaser or a light AC.

Indirect fire you might say...well wouldn't it be easyer to just replace the spotter mech that is required for indirect fire with one that carrys a nice combo of Gauss and PPC ? And when youre at it just replace those LRMs with some Lasers and get two mechs for ranged bombardment where you got one and a spotter instead.
And that is just one example.
Yea, yea, don't use scout mechs as spotter, its teamwork blabla everyone is a spotter bla

My argument is that LRMs require more support from your team to be used effectively than they deliver support to the team.
LRMs require teamwork instead of supporting teamwork.

The LRM, as they is implemented in MWO is simply an impractical weapon that requires too many factors to match and is too easiely countered.
And through all discussions I never encountered an argument that could make the LRM worth its effort to use.

When you get good at LRMs they become rather similar to using something like a clan medium laser boat.

With lasers you look for an enemy, fire on them, if they're any good they spread the damage a bit, but you've done your 42 damage alpha (assuming 6 ERML) and gotten back into cover. You exposed yourself to damage during that time also for about 2 seconds with the 1+ second beam duration and your mech's accel and decel to get in and out of cover.

With a mech doing exactly the same thing but with LRMs, you peek tiny cockpit out of cover, lock on, take shot on enemy, wait the second it takes for them to hit, and get back behind cover. You've done your 40 damage alpha (2 ALRM20s, artemis helps direct fire only) and exposed less of your mech doing so.

LRM mech gets much less heat per alpha for only 2 points less damage total, has backup weaponry so its stronger in a push than the ERML boat, does have an option for indirect fire so that it can stay in the fight while repositioning, has option to fire at extreme range for at least some low chance of damage, though not recommended due to low accuracy.

What works well for LRMs is that they have versatility for engagement range and type. A player who is able to easily recognize the flow of battle can throw suppression into areas he needs, push, rain damage on enemies, and make favorable trades. The meta works out well at doing its one thing, but it is stuck with limited options, it only has that one thing in particular its good at and it does it very well.

The LRM boat is essentially a mixed build that actually works rather decently, somewhat similar to Executioners running 2 ERPPC paired with 6 SPL. People really tend to underestimate how powerful an LRM boat with a proper build actually is up close.

Mad Dogs can pack on 5 small pulse lasers. This is 10 DPS, 30 damage a shot, short duration death. 6 ERML is only 10.14 DPS for more than double the heat per shot and longer durations. The ERML do get out more damage per shot, but in a brawling situation its very likely that the small pulse laser user will end up having the advantage in sustain, especially considering how close their total DPSes are. On top of that, pushing the LRM boat usually means that its already been raining on you or your team so much that your mid range units have decided to push in under 180, so you're already disadvantaged in armor when you come into the brawl with the thing.

Mostly what I'm saying is that while LRMs aren't the most optimal tool for dealing damage, they allow a player to manipulate a battle through means other than just dealing damage directly to the enemy. For example an LRM boat fires and is a beacon to enemy lights, he can use this to lure lights to their death and keep the assault lance safe, sort of like how the gas giants keep asteroids from hitting Earth often. There also just seems to be a psychological effect with LRMs on enemies such that they either cower in cover from them, rush to their deaths directly into firing lines to get under their 180m range, or end up ignoring them until they've worn their armor away. They're a great tool for increasing chances of enemy mistakes and panic.

[The6thMessenger]

Dakota1000, on 27 January 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

Mostly what I'm saying is that while LRMs aren't the most optimal tool for dealing damage, they allow a player to manipulate a battle through means other than just dealing damage directly to the enemy. For example an LRM boat fires and is a beacon to enemy lights, he can use this to lure lights to their death and keep the assault lance safe, sort of like how the gas giants keep asteroids from hitting Earth often. There also just seems to be a psychological effect with LRMs on enemies such that they either cower in cover from them, rush to their deaths directly into firing lines to get under their 180m range, or end up ignoring them until they've worn their armor away. They're a great tool for increasing chances of enemy mistakes and panic.

The psychological effect is kind of lessened with experience though IMO, on my way to tier 1 i felt as if i was just going through the motions every game now. I still like playing, but when i'm on an "Oh shieeet i ****** up" moment, i was just like eh and walk away.

Dakota1000, on 27 January 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

Mad Dogs can pack on 5 small pulse lasers. This is 10 DPS, 30 damage a shot, short duration death. 6 ERML is only 10.14 DPS for more than double the heat per shot and longer durations. The ERML do get out more damage per shot, but in a brawling situation its very likely that the small pulse laser user will end up having the advantage in sustain, especially considering how close their total DPSes are. On top of that, pushing the LRM boat usually means that its already been raining on you or your team so much that your mid range units have decided to push in under 180, so you're already disadvantaged in armor when you come into the brawl with the thing.

In my experience, best distance on LRMs is at within 400m, essentially within C-ER ML. I'd rather run TBR-S 4x LRM10A (1080) + 4x ER-ML, because at the same time i shoot my LRM volleys i'd do additional 28 laser damage. Or something like this too: MDD-C 6x LRM5 (1260) + 4x ERML (20 DHS) + TAG Imagine the rainbow!

SPL is nice, but brawling situations should be the the instances you must avoid.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2017 - 04:32 AM.

[Mole]

LRM boats actually aren't that bad if you know what you're doing. I've got two of them, my Archer and my Kintaro. Of course, they pack enough backup weapons to make them a threat in a brawl too. Especially my Archer, which carries 4 SRM4s in addition to its LRMs.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The6thMessenger, on 27 January 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

The psychological effect is kind of lessened with experience though IMO, on my way to tier 1 i felt as if i was just going through the motions every game now. I still like playing, but when i'm on an "Oh shieeet i ****** up" moment, i was just like eh and walk away.

Everything's effect is lessened over experience, still, many players do not have such experience. Its more of a dice roll anyway as to effects, some people are completely hardened to them and others fall to pieces, that's human nature.

The6thMessenger, on 27 January 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

In my experience, best distance on LRMs is at within 400m, essentially within C-ER ML. I'd rather run TBR-S 4x LRM10A (1080) + 4x ER-ML, because at the same time i shoot my LRM volleys i'd do additional 28 laser damage.

SPL is nice, but brawling situations should be the the instances you must avoid.

I love my LRM brawling though, and bringing ERML with my missiles usually means I have to expose more of my mech to also fire off the ERML than I would have just using the LRMs. Besides, I'd honestly hate to be an LRM boat with only ERML to protect myself from lights with, the SPL are just so much easier to melt small, fast enemies with than the mediums. It mostly is just me shoring up my vulnerabilities rather than focusing entirely on the mid range poke. This way I usually am a hard target to take down, as the easy win doesn't happen in the case of just rushing under 180m.

[Vellron2005]

Oh.. look...

Another LRM thread..

Should I dive into this and do my usual "LRM's are awesome if you know how to use em'" rutine?

.....naaaah.

Not today.

[QuantumButler]

I don't think I trust a guy who runs gauss urbies unironically.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Vellron2005, on 27 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

Oh.. look...

Another LRM thread..

Should I dive into this and do my usual "LRM's are awesome if you know how to use em'" rutine?

.....naaaah.

Not today.

I've been noticing a couple popping up each day after that one thread I made a couple days ago.

[The6thMessenger]

QuantumButler, on 27 January 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

I don't think I trust a guy who runs gauss urbies unironically.

I'm in a Gauss Urbanmech. Your argument is invalid.

[Lykaon]

Monkey Lover, on 13 January 2017 - 09:11 PM, said:

lrm damage is like streak dmg. To really know how good you did divide it by 4 to compare it to direct fire.

This statement is how I know you don't know how LRMs actually work. You get overly focused on the damage done when that's not what it's all about.

It's actually technically possible to do sub 200 damage with an LRM carrier and still be one of the most infuencial mechs on the team. You can subtley shape the battle by diverting resources or preventing the enemy from getting into superior possition and both of these do not require you to actually hit the enemy you just need to present the threat of damage,

And then there is close LRM support,where your LRM carrier is moving directly with your brawlers and lobbing shots over the mechs in front of you (where a direct fire build would be doing no damage) You mech is not going to be the one making the kills or focusing damage that's what the guy in KDK3 in front of you is for your job is keep the guys wanting to fire back pinned down or so rattled with LRM5 spam they can't aim straight.

And then there's harassment support. this is when you keep an eye on where your team's light skirmishers went and are prepared to shell any enemy lights that latch onto them. This will either kill the enemy light as your skirmisher continues to fight now WITH LRM support or the enemy disengages because he figures out he's a dead mech walking if he doesn't cut and run. This frees up your skirmishers to actually fight rather than get bogged down in a light vs light long drawn out affair.

Essentialy LRM support isn't a glamorous job it's a force multiplyer that the game doesn't track or grant credit for but don't be fooled that Arctic Cheetah that landed three kills and 800+ damage wouldn't have if I didn't shell the locust that was on him 30 seconds into the match.He would have been too busy being chased and dog fighting to get the job done.

That KDK-3 with the 1100+ damage would have been pasted before they hit 500 dmg if I wasn't laying down suppression fire as they advanced into range.

It's not always about how much damage the LRM boat does it's about how much damage was done by the team because of the actions of the LRM support.

Understanding this is the real difference between a good LRM support pilot and a great one.

Edited by Lykaon, 28 January 2017 - 03:24 PM.

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 27 January 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

Mostly what I'm saying is that while LRMs aren't the most optimal tool for dealing damage, they allow a player to manipulate a battle through means other than just dealing damage directly to the enemy. For example an LRM boat fires and is a beacon to enemy lights, he can use this to lure lights to their death and keep the assault lance safe, sort of like how the gas giants keep asteroids from hitting Earth often. There also just seems to be a psychological effect with LRMs on enemies such that they either cower in cover from them, rush to their deaths directly into firing lines to get under their 180m range, or end up ignoring them until they've worn their armor away. They're a great tool for increasing chances of enemy mistakes and panic.

This guy gets it.

Edited by Lykaon, 28 January 2017 - 03:35 PM.

[lshtaria]

Still like a good match in my MDD with 6x cLRM5, 4x cERML 1x TAG.

When it comes to lurm boats, the key to success is putting down suppressive fire that isn't LRMs. Never expose yourself as a lurm boat. 4x cERML is all you need to chain fire some pokey stick lasers and keep potential aggressors at bay. 4x cERML is also reasonable enough at giving you some support damage. TAG for bonus ceebies and ECM penetration with the chain fired cLRM5s, ensures you're a lurmer who can blend in well with the team.

#lrn2lurm

[Brain Cancer]

Anjian, on 27 January 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

I find that missile based systems (not just in this game but also in other games) to be highly team dependent. If you are team support, the team there is an important factor. If your team is already losing, you can't push and carry to be a decisive factor to turn around the game. I started doing some experiments with an Archer and a Vulture, I may expand on those further.

If you're depending on your team for locks, you're really, really doing it wrong.

Parasitic locks are your last choice, as they're the least reliable and disable your own Artemis. And a missile boat that goes for it's own locks is aggressive enough to push just fine. No, you won't brawl but when you're at that sweet spot of 300m or so, secondary weaponry + your missiles will do just fine, thank you.

[East Indy]

I've never been bothered by LRMs one way or the other, but I think there are ways to make them less contemptuous for some on one hand and more skill-intensive for others.

Increase projectile velocity by a notable amount, 20% or so, but decrease accuracy for any indirect hit by 60%. So, on that one hand, anyone who gets hit hard will know that they were in the open, and earned it. On the other, guys who want to play "support" need to be right behind the push — word will spread fast through VOIP, chat, forums and match scores.