116 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

Due to being a huge fan of MW4 I really want x pulse lasers. I want them like I want my Cougar and Uziel and Chimera. It is really hard to tell my emotions that these might reduce ttk and be bad for the game.

Yet PGI has to contend with a lot of peoples emotions about what this game should or shouldn't be and what is or isn't acceptable to do in regards to balance.

At this point I think the only hope is for PGI to ignore the community debates and make the tech balance out even if that means deviating from lore.

[Mcgral18]

Van Tuz, on 15 January 2017 - 02:27 AM, said:

Trying to balance an inherently imbalanced factions while keeping an eye on those lore-fanatics is impossible.
There's only 3 ways to make games with lore-intended mech power even remotely fair to IS:

• Asymmetrical team number. Personally, i think that this is the best solution. If 12v10 didn't worked before doesn't mean it's not possible at all. It just needs more work on matchmaker.
  
• IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan. But that divides the community.
  
• Completely remove IS or Clan mech from the game. No comments here.

Why can't we balance the factions?
Lore is a bad reason

[Hillslam]

I just see all the tech advancement and power balancing tweak this and that as applying bandaides over a sucking gunshot wound.

The game has a fundamental lack of monetizable content; arena deathmatch served up nine ways from Sunday. There's only so many ways you can charge for the exact same meal every day. And only so long people will keep eating it.

Add more content. Charge for it.

PvE

[Alan Davion]

Hillslam, on 15 January 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

PvE

MW5:M

2018

[Tarl Cabot]

Alan Davion, on 15 January 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

MW5:M

2018

And then we will learn whether or not PGI is able to and does renew the license.....

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 15 January 2017 - 10:54 AM.

[Van Tuz]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Why can't we balance the factions?
Lore is a bad reason

Try to find a way to balance Hunchback against Hunchback IIc for example.

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On the bright side: maybe heavy ferro-fibrous armor will become a reality to preserve the endangered species know as "brawlers".

[Mcgral18]

Van Tuz, on 15 January 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Try to find a way to balance Hunchback against Hunchback IIc for example.

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On the bright side: maybe heavy ferro-fibrous armor will become a reality to preserve the endangered species know as "brawlers".

LFE helps that robot in particular, because then it isn't forced to take an STD for its quirks.
...HFF needs 21 slots
That's a lot of slots, he might not even be able to take an AC20 and HFF, which removes the point of that robot
He needs to drop Endo to take HFF


Not to mention...HFF is the SAME THING as normal FF, in that it's bad. Comes out to the same as Endo in the Hunchback, 2.5 tons saved, only for nearly twice the cost!
Current isFF is 12%
current cFF is 20%
HFF is 24%


So, you pay THREE TIMES the Crit cost for nearly the same thing
HFF needs buffs, but why not just buff normal FF instead?




But, Hunch is limited by old designs. He needs quirks
LFE allows him to remove Ferro, max out his armour, 5 tons of ammo, 3 ML, no heatsinks


An improvement, but hot. If SPLs weren't shite, I'd recommend those.
Those could compete against a IIC, but not the A, probably not the B. The IIC is normally mid range, so a brawler could beat it.
The A is long or mid or short, with greater firepower in almost every config, the the B is a (not very good) brawler who has more firepower.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

Why can't we balance the factions?
Lore is a bad reason

Quoted from a post from another thread:

Koniving, on 15 January 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

The problem isn't tabletop rules.
The problem is the translation using made up rules.

Now, if they did a translation filtered through lore, we'd have something much more tennible.

[Hillslam]

Alan Davion, on 15 January 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

MW5:M

2018

"SP only".

Not the same thing.

PS - even in the SP I'm laying big money that it will be a linear single story arc campaign. Yawn.
No economy, no freedom of movement, no sandbox, no procedural anything. And obviously no Co-op.
A sled ride of ~12-20 scripted missions.
Calling it.

Edited by Hillslam, 15 January 2017 - 03:05 PM.

[Valhallan]

The armor type that will save brawlers is not HFF, it's Hardened Armor (at least for heavy and above weight brawling)

[Snazzy Dragon]

Valhallan, on 15 January 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

The armor type that will save brawlers is not HFF, it's Hardened Armor (at least for heavy and above weight brawling)

I don't know if I would take anything lighter than 55 tons into a brawl right now.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

LFE helps that robot in particular, because then it isn't forced to take an STD for its quirks.
...HFF needs 21 slots
That's a lot of slots, he might not even be able to take an AC20 and HFF, which removes the point of that robot
He needs to drop Endo to take HFF


Not to mention...HFF is the SAME THING as normal FF, in that it's bad. Comes out to the same as Endo in the Hunchback, 2.5 tons saved, only for nearly twice the cost!
Current isFF is 12%
current cFF is 20%
HFF is 24%


So, you pay THREE TIMES the Crit cost for nearly the same thing
HFF needs buffs, but why not just buff normal FF instead?




But, Hunch is limited by old designs. He needs quirks
LFE allows him to remove Ferro, max out his armour, 5 tons of ammo, 3 ML, no heatsinks


An improvement, but hot. If SPLs weren't shite, I'd recommend those.
Those could compete against a IIC, but not the A, probably not the B. The IIC is normally mid range, so a brawler could beat it.
The A is long or mid or short, with greater firepower in almost every config, the the B is a (not very good) brawler who has more firepower.

What if he didn't die on ST loss?

What if one of the engine crits was moved to the 'hips' (leg internals) and as such no ST loss and only 2 slots on the ST used?

I could balance IS XLs a million ways and have it play out fun, interesting and different from Clans to maintain flavor. Dear god, balance XLs, Endo and FF between IS and Clans and then unlock Clan omnis - boom, clans have, for example, more customization but slightly less quirks or something.

Again, a million ways to do it. They would all involve balancing survivability with survivability though and PGI just can't seem to make good balance decisions even after years of practice.

[Van Tuz]

Mcgral18, on 15 January 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

LFE helps that robot in particular, because then it isn't forced to take an STD for its quirks.
...
Not to mention...HFF is the SAME THING as normal FF, in that it's bad.
Current isFF is 12%
current cFF is 20%
HFF is 24%

Hunchback with AC/20 has an alpha-strike of 33. Hunchback IIc with 2 C-UAC/20 has an alpha-strike of 94.
I have no clue what kind of quirky quirks needed to make them even remotely equal in battle.


The note about HFF armor was not about Hunchbacks but about brawlers in general. And it looks like you (or maybe me) have misread what it does. It multiplies the armor points by 1.24 basically allowing to exceed max armor values.

Valhallan, on 15 January 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

The armor type that will save brawlers is not HFF, it's Hardened Armor (at least for heavy and above weight brawling)

True and i would like to see it even more than HFF. But hardened armor is "current tech" AFAIK and if it wasn't in the game then devs don't want it for some reason. I doubt they changed their mind. HFF is less "extreme" and therefore is more likely to appear in game.

Edited by Van Tuz, 16 January 2017 - 12:52 AM.

[Vyx]

I have always thought that the whole Clan/IS balance issue could be solved in a very simple way.

Consider:
1. In the lore, the Clans are more advanced technologically
1a. Clan tech is more compact, lighter, longer range, and harder hitting
2. In the lore, IS is more robust -- their stuff has stood the test of time and built to take a hit
2a. IS tech may not be the most powerful, but it is reliable and gets the job done

In order to balance the advantage Clan tech has over IS -and- keep with the lore, simply adjust the "health" of each Clan weapon, ammo, targeting computer, and support component to be 5 instead of 10 (http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment). This would reflect Clan tech's general fragility. While Clan tech may be more powerful, compact, and lighter, it tends to break more easily compared to the old, reliable IS tech.

What this would do from a game-play standpoint would be make the clans hit fast and hard, while IS would be sturdy and weather the storm, so to speak. The strength of the Clan would be aggressive skill, while the merits of the IS would be grit and tenacity.

IMO, this and the addition of the IS light fusion engine (LFE) would set us on the path to true balance.

[The Lighthouse]

Vyx, on 16 January 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

I have always thought that the whole Clan/IS balance issue could be solved in a very simple way.

Consider:
1. In the lore, the Clans are more advanced technologically
1a. Clan tech is more compact, lighter, longer range, and harder hitting
2. In the lore, IS is more robust -- their stuff has stood the test of time and built to take a hit
2a. IS tech may not be the most powerful, but it is reliable and gets the job done

In order to balance the advantage Clan tech has over IS -and- keep with the lore, simply adjust the "health" of each Clan weapon, ammo, targeting computer, and support component to be 5 instead of 10 (http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment). This would reflect Clan tech's general fragility. While Clan tech may be more powerful, compact, and lighter, it tends to break more easily compared to the old, reliable IS tech.

What this would do from a game-play standpoint would be make the clans hit fast and hard, while IS would be sturdy and weather the storm, so to speak. The strength of the Clan would be aggressive skill, while the merits of the IS would be grit and tenacity.

IMO, this and the addition of the IS light fusion engine (LFE) would set us on the path to true balance.

Which PGI did as increasing durability of a lot of IS mechs, and then decided to un-done those durability balances because they were 'too extreme' and thus 'too lame'. It really shows that PGI has zero clue on balancing the game most of the time.

Many people have talked this before, but LFE does not solve the fundamental imbalance problem between Clan and IS.

And seriously please can we stop talking about lore when this game hardly has any lore stuffs left?

A simple question: does this game have any melee mechanic? It is a huge thing and one of the advantages that IS has over Clan. Melee is a huge part of the game and none of the melee stuffs is implemented. It is completely laughable to talking about lore when the game barely has any lore stuffs left and only makes the game worse. There are reasons why previous Mechwarrior and Mechcommander games did not follow TT rules and lore closely because they suck for the video games... yes even Mechcommander 1, the game that probably the closest to TT game you will ever have (well, that is until Battletech comes out.)


And of course, as if lore/TT stuffs are actually balanced enough in the first place.....

[Mcgral18]

Van Tuz, on 16 January 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

Hunchback with AC/20 has an alpha-strike of 33. Hunchback IIc with 2 C-UAC/20 has an alpha-strike of 94.
I have no clue what kind of quirky quirks needed to make them even remotely equal in battle.


The note about HFF armor was not about Hunchbacks but about brawlers in general. And it looks like you (or maybe me) have misread what it does. It multiplies the armor points by 1.24 basically allowing to exceed max armor values.



True and i would like to see it even more than HFF. But hardened armor is "current tech" AFAIK and if it wasn't in the game then devs don't want it for some reason. I doubt they changed their mind. HFF is less "extreme" and therefore is more likely to appear in game.

You know, I was asking for a real H2C build, not a troll build.
A Hunch has no problem taking that piece of trash down

You are also very wrong about HFF, because it's exactly what FF is, twice as much, for a ridiculous cost
HFF is complete shite

sKiNLeSs, on 16 January 2017 - 01:44 AM, said:

Not even close. I can fire Clan ER Large lasers and go make coffee and be seated again before it's finished with the initial burn.

You can have your own opinion, but you can also be very wrong


The cERLL has more Dam/tick without duration quirks

[Pjwned]

Vyx, on 16 January 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

I have always thought that the whole Clan/IS balance issue could be solved in a very simple way.

Consider:
1. In the lore, the Clans are more advanced technologically
1a. Clan tech is more compact, lighter, longer range, and harder hitting
2. In the lore, IS is more robust -- their stuff has stood the test of time and built to take a hit
2a. IS tech may not be the most powerful, but it is reliable and gets the job done

In order to balance the advantage Clan tech has over IS -and- keep with the lore, simply adjust the "health" of each Clan weapon, ammo, targeting computer, and support component to be 5 instead of 10 (http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment). This would reflect Clan tech's general fragility. While Clan tech may be more powerful, compact, and lighter, it tends to break more easily compared to the old, reliable IS tech.

What this would do from a game-play standpoint would be make the clans hit fast and hard, while IS would be sturdy and weather the storm, so to speak. The strength of the Clan would be aggressive skill, while the merits of the IS would be grit and tenacity.

IMO, this and the addition of the IS light fusion engine (LFE) would set us on the path to true balance.

I like the idea actually, and it's something I've thought of myself, but that would have to be in addition to other balance (already existing) factors because Clans would be way too good otherwise.

The other thing is that the critical hit system in this game is complete trash, both in terms of mechanics and numbers, and 1 issue (out of several) is that it makes no sense for a half-ton ammo pack to be as durable as a 12-ton autocannon, so those numbers you propose are a little oversimplified because the critical hit system needs more work than just that.

[Van Tuz]

Vyx, on 16 January 2017 - 01:38 AM, said:

In order to balance the advantage Clan tech has over IS -and- keep with the lore, simply adjust the "health" of each Clan weapon, ammo, targeting computer, and support component to be 5 instead of 10

IMO, this and the addition of the IS light fusion engine (LFE) would set us on the path to true balance.

Won't be even close. Clans have better weight-saving tech than IS so they can pack more weapons and armor in the same tonnage. And while devs are trying (with a little success) to balance clan weapons to have drawbacks, until clan endo-steel, clanFF and ClanXL are superior to their IS counterparts no 1 to 1 balance can be achieved.

Mcgral18, on 16 January 2017 - 03:43 AM, said:

You know, I was asking for a real H2C build, not a troll build.
A Hunch has no problem taking that piece of trash down

You are also very wrong about HFF, because it's exactly what FF is, twice as much, for a ridiculous cost
HFF is complete shite

I was talking about stock HBK-2C loadout. There was no "troll" markings so not my problem.
On a side note: just took trial version with double C-UAC/10 for a spin. (2 matches) Dealt 500 damage on defeat and 750 on victory. Even King Crab in the same hands wasn't performing nearly that well. Now tell me how Clans can be perfectly balanced.
Also, where did you get your information about HFF?

[Mcgral18]

Van Tuz, on 16 January 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

I was talking about stock HBK-2C loadout. There was no "troll" markings so not my problem.
On a side note: just took trial version with double C-UAC/10 for a spin. (2 matches) Dealt 500 damage on defeat and 750 on victory. Even King Crab in the same hands wasn't performing nearly that well. Now tell me how Clans can be perfectly balanced.
Also, where did you get your information about HFF?

Stock is terrible for a variety of reasons
Never suggest stock for a serious discussion

You've performed perfectly average matches with a basic mech, impressive
Mediocrity doesn't determine balance, and those are very easy to balance
I'd need a notepad to balance, however

My info comes from Sarna and the upgrades.xml
You never get a higher cap with FF, only lighter armour
Hardened, iirc, is what does that

[Alan Davion]

Van Tuz, on 16 January 2017 - 06:01 AM, said:

until clan endo-steel, clanFF and ClanXL are superior to their IS counterparts no 1 to 1 balance can be achieved.

Umm... Clan Endo, Ferro and XL ARE SUPERIOR than their IS counterparts.

Clan endo = 7 slots, and 50% weight savings while IS endo = 14 slots, though I don't know exactly what the weight savings is, though I know it's not going to be 50%

Clan ferro = 7 slots, and probably 50% weight savings, while IS ferro again = 14 slots and again not sure what the weight savings is, but again not going to be 50%.

Clan XL = 2 slots per side torso, preventing mech destruction upon side torso loss, IS XL = 3 slots per side torso, meaning you lose a side torso and you f***ing die.

Can someone give me the exact weight saving percentages of Clan vs IS Endo and Ferro?