65 replies to this topic

[Jack BeFLippen]

if you have already seen this, then awesome.
if not, please take it in stride.
good advice. and I see that you are currently doing many of the steps.

http://penny-arcade....crotransactions

this has been a word from a MWO loving fanatic since I was in diapers playing Machwarrior on MSDOS.

Jack~

[Hayden]

Jack BeFLippen, on 13 December 2011 - 08:11 AM, said:

if you have already seen this, then awesome.
if not, please take it in stride.
good advice. and I see that you are currently doing many of the steps.

http://penny-arcade....crotransactions

this has been a word from a MWO loving fanatic since I was in diapers playing Machwarrior on MSDOS.

Jack~

Made the rounds about a month ago, but still very relevant.

[C0VVB3LL]

Agreed Sir +10 internets to you

[VEDRFOLNIR]

Yes it's a very good video... very informative. I think someone has the link as part of their signature.

[Tweaks]

Wow... Just plain WOW! I was blown away by how true everything that video explained really is, and how well it was all put down. That's it right there, I don't think it can be explained any better!

I feel this should be presented to the entire staff of both PGI and IGP using a projector, in large conference rooms. It's actually the best presentation I've seen in a while!

VEDRFOLNIR, on 13 December 2011 - 09:07 AM, said:

I think someone has the link as part of their signature.

Done!

Edited by Tweaks, 14 December 2011 - 07:50 PM.

[Evgeny Bear]

They got my Lulz for the awesome monocle... ohh yeah I remember the 500029084339473474 bazillion Threads and flames in game and on forums... aww god... never ending, in all languages, every day, all the time -.-

[Omigir]

I <3 optrioptrix and his microraptorness. Also, its true. As a player of EVE, i never ever ever waist my time buying anything other than a Plex and my subscription. My avitar would be naked in protest if they would allow it.

[Felicitatem Parco]

*ahem*

bump...

[Majer]

It always amuses me, to see people say obvious stuff, and other people, who are in charge, doing this obvious things wrong.

[Orayn]

Once again, Extra Credits hits the nail on the head. Hopefully some folks at Piranha Games have seen this and taken it to heart.

[Dredger]

"NEVER sell power!"

Cannot stress enough how many free-to-play games I've quit because I felt the game was coercing me to pay just so I could have a fair chance in combat.

Props to Jack for posting this.

[Conora Lance]

Slight problem with that... 'Mechs are powerhouses, so unless they were to sell premium chassis and avatar content only it's kind of limited.

Edited by Conora Lance, 16 December 2011 - 02:23 AM.

[Raeven]

I'm good if every 'Mech is for sale for real money. So long as you can also buy every 'Mech using in game cash also.

[Tweaks]

The key is to make sure everything you can buy with real money doesn't give you an advantage in combat over the non-paying players. "Don't sell power" essentially means that. So, it's okay to sell cosmetic things with real money (i.e. extra 'Mech bay slots, Hula-girls and cockpit decoration and such) that non-paying players can't get for free, but things that actually mean something in combat ('Mechs, equipments, weapons) always have to be available for free as well.

Having the possibility to purchase 'Mechs, equipment and weapons with real money is fair, as long as the one who wants to work for it can also get the same things for free. Also, you should still need to grind experience points the hard way to unlock skills, weapons and things you can purchase. No amount of money should be able to replace actual experience. That means that even if you're able to buy a whole 'Mech with real money, you won't be able to use it until you're qualified to pilot it!

To me the only acceptable shortcut you can get with real money is to avoid the C-Bill grind, but not the xp grind.

Edited by Tweaks, 16 December 2011 - 04:49 AM.

[Dredger]

Conora Lance, on 16 December 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Slight problem with that... 'Mechs are powerhouses, so unless they were to sell premium chassis and avatar content only it's kind of limited.

What Tweaks said.

Microtransactions are fine for cosmetic items such as unique camo patterns or EXP boosts (Tweaks didn't agree w/ that one), but quickly anger half of the player base if there are exclusive weapons for paying customers alone; especially if said weapons are incredibly effective compared to the run-of-the-mill stock guns. Stuff like that causes pointless and destructive division in the community. Poor kid hates rich kid, etc.

I spent a good chunk of time on a free-to-play title called Black Prophecy which sold power using a microtransaction system. There was one player (cannot remember his name now) who flew for the TYI faction and everyone hated him because he had purchased all his equipment. Because he had the best exclusive armor and guns, it took FIVE maximum level players to take him out ONCE. The best part is he had absolutely no talent. He couldn't fly that uber-fighter with any sort of finesse or skill. So he made up for his lack of piloting skill with cash and turned himself into a juggernaut.

THAT is why you don't sell power.

Edited by Dredger, 16 December 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[Tweaks]

Dredger, on 16 December 2011 - 10:21 AM, said:

What Tweaks said.

Microtransactions are fine for cosmetic items such as unique camo patterns or EXP boosts (Tweaks didn't agree w/ that one), but quickly anger half of the player base if there are exclusive weapons for paying customers alone; especially if said weapons are incredibly effective compared to the run-of-the-mill stock guns. Stuff like that causes pointless and destructive division in the community. Poor kid hates rich kid, etc.

I spent a good chunk of time on a free-to-play title called Black Prophecy which sold power using a microtransaction system. There was one player (cannot remember his name now) who flew for the TYI faction and everyone hated him because he had purchased all his equipment. Because he had the best exclusive armor and guns, it took FIVE maximum level players to take him out ONCE. The best part is he had absolutely no talent. He couldn't fly that uber-fighter with any sort of finesse or skill. So he made up for his lack of piloting skill with cash and turned himself into a juggernaut.

THAT is why you don't sell power.

Wow, just had a major "deja-vu" moment reading your 3rd paragraph... Did you copy that from another forum by any chance?

Anyway... The purchasable XP booster subject is touchy, as it depends with the way it's implemented. For example, if you can purchase XP points (or exchange C-Bills for XP Points), then it means you don't actually have to fight anyone to go up in skills. THAT to me is power, and it's a NO NO!

However, if all the booster does is to allow you to gain XP at a slightly faster rate, but that you still have to fight for to get it (and if you suck and don't get any points, well, no matter the XG gain factor, you're still not going to get any), then I think it's okay.

A good example is the Premium Account in World of Tanks. It allows you to gain XP at a faster rate, but it's still going to take a long time to unlock that Tier 9 tank!

Other that that, I think it's fair to sell anything as long as you can also grind for it the natural way if you want.

[Majer]

I think there is plenty of space for proper non-free content. Not only visuals, but things, that are not mandatory, yet convenient for players, and not in equipment related area nor giving any experience points/money straight away.

Imagine that being a part of faction requires you to perform duties. Some are fun and thrilling, and some are not - in example simple patrolling which does not guarantee you any action. You could either spend some of your playing time (40% for lower ranks, adequately less for higher officers) on duties like watch, patrol or commission, or just pay it off, so others may do that duty - and many will, since there's always a ton of players who avoid paying at all costs (at least while they're young or not yet attached to the game), but they still do bring a lot of "content" to the game, as mentioned in OP's video and for a longer run, I know by experience that they're a great investment - only matter of time, when they turn into customers, that pay for stuff. I guess having real random encounters would be valuable instead of having only staged battles, and roaming patrols, or temporary outposts would help in creating such scenarios.

Or classic approach: Having damaged mechs would require some time to get them fully functional again, so you can speed up this process by hiring extra servicemen. You'd still use substitute mech anyways, but it would take you less time, to jump back to your favourite one.

Another one: and this one is as tricky as evil. Let more experienced and powerfull players aid newcommers by investing in them, to speed up their progress via premium content (upto certain point). Why would they bother? Because later on, these tutors would get a small bonus (in renown or something like that) from actions that their students will perform, provided they pledge fealty to their "patrons". Unlike financial pyramids that are common in our reality full of scam, patrons would not get any income from students of their former students. Why it is evil then? Well, it's a psychological trick. Once new player gets helped he's likely to feel guilt and decides to help out newcomer himself. And the money machine is rolling.
I wouldn't mind that, provided that both cost of boosting new player (in real money) and amount of income layer one (in sort of "renown points") will be low enough. Afterall it only encourages players to help other ones, and amount of player will grow this way faster.

Edited by Majer, 16 December 2011 - 11:45 PM.

[Tweaks]

Majer, on 16 December 2011 - 11:42 PM, said:

I think there is plenty of space for proper non-free content. Not only visuals, but things, that are not mandatory, yet convenient for players, and not in equipment related area nor giving any experience points/money straight away.

Imagine that being a part of faction requires you to perform duties. Some are fun and thrilling, and some are not - in example simple patrolling which does not guarantee you any action. You could either spend some of your playing time (40% for lower ranks, adequately less for higher officers) on duties like watch, patrol or commission, or just pay it off, so others may do that duty - and many will, since there's always a ton of players who avoid paying at all costs (at least while they're young or not yet attached to the game), but they still do bring a lot of "content" to the game, as mentioned in OP's video and for a longer run, I know by experience that they're a great investment - only matter of time, when they turn into customers, that pay for stuff. I guess having real random encounters would be valuable instead of having only staged battles, and roaming patrols, or temporary outposts would help in creating such scenarios.

Or classic approach: Having damaged mechs would require some time to get them fully functional again, so you can speed up this process by hiring extra servicemen. You'd still use substitute mech anyways, but it would take you less time, to jump back to your favourite one.

Another one: and this one is as tricky as evil. Let more experienced and powerfull players aid newcommers by investing in them, to speed up their progress via premium content (upto certain point). Why would they bother? Because later on, these tutors would get a small bonus (in renown or something like that) from actions that their students will perform, provided they pledge fealty to their "patrons". Unlike financial pyramids that are common in our reality full of scam, patrons would not get any income from students of their former students. Why it is evil then? Well, it's a psychological trick. Once new player gets helped he's likely to feel guilt and decides to help out newcomer himself. And the money machine is rolling.
I wouldn't mind that, provided that both cost of boosting new player (in real money) and amount of income layer one (in sort of "renown points") will be low enough. Afterall it only encourages players to help other ones, and amount of player will grow this way faster.

Most of what you suggest is by definition, power. Rich people would have the option to "buy their way to success" instead of actually working for it, or worse, doing it for someone else. This is a no no! You should not be able to purchase your way through something that others who don't have money to spend would have to go through painfully. Giving a slight bonus to XP gain is one thing, but being able to simply exchange C-Bills for experience points for example, is not good!

Never allow the rich to win over the poor by buying their way out or bypassing something entirely. That's when you start dividing the community into "rich versus poor". That's not the way to go!

Edited by Tweaks, 17 December 2011 - 06:19 AM.

[Majer]

You're wrong. There's no power to be sold. Just ability to, for a small amount of real money, to decide player HOW to spend time in game.

How not being forced to go for a 30min watch will make someone powerful? He still needs to play, but he might prefer to be part of battle not a boring awaiting which may, or may not result in engagement. Anyway, they still get paid for that watch.

How letting someone play in his own mechwarrior would make them stronger? They'll eventually still have to use replacement one, just for a shorter period of time. and those who do not want to pay for this, can still either wait bit longer or not die.

How getting a small bounus in renown will make someone physically stronger than any other. And notice that you need to invest both money and time to tutor newcomer. This is in fact actual reward!

You're being paranoid.

[Tweaks]

It's not paranoia. Didn't you watch the video in the OP? It explains it all better than I ever could.

It's a golden rule: Do not split the community by allowing rich players to entirely skip what non-paying players would have to spend time for.

What you're suggesting is exactly what it will do. It will create casts of players (the rich and the poor). The rich will have everything more easily without having to work for it, while poorer players will have to grind for it the hard way. This is wrong, just plain wrong!

The power it itself is not that it will allow rich payers to own poor players, it's that they will be able to get everything faster without working for it. Worse, poor players who know rich players will also have an advantage (if rich players can give them money)...

To me, having the option to skip something by paying for it with real money is cheating. It's happening in the real world every day, and it's what makes this world so full of violence and injustice. It doesn't have its place in MWO.