77 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

Please remember Tina's instruction...

Keep in mind these will mostly be used by new playersl!

New players have little or no knowledge and understanding of ghost heat scale penalties, proper spacing/chain firing of weapon groups. They also using these champions as trials mechs have no skill tree unlocks so that means no bonus cooling or heat capacity. Nor can they add coolshot consumables to them. One of the Nova submissions was 12 SPL and another was 6 ERSL and 6 SPL. A new player is definitely going to alpha strike at some point in every game, and quite possibly just after the drop during the "weapons test" phase everyone does at some point. That 12 SPL build...76 heat. the 6&6 build... 92 heat. A 6 ERML / 6 SPL build would be 184 heat for an alpha strike. Every build I have submitted has ZERO chance of ghost heat triggering from an alpha strike.

Likewise they cannot have radar deprivation modules to protect them from LRMs, so they actually DO need some mech options with AMS equipped, especially as LRM rainstorms are the new "meta" for new players lately. Of the 16 champions in rotation currently, none have AMS even though a dozen of them have hardpoints for it. New players need to be able to learn for themselves whether or not AMS suits them, or suits their desire to support a team. One AMS might not seem like a lot to us experts...but a small group (2 to 4) of friends trying the game for the first time maybe playing together in group queue...if they ALL have AMS on their trial mechs...that'll add up to some serious anti-missile fire if they stay close together.

Of the eight new champions pending, the hellbringer is one and its pretty safe bet that EVERYONE is going to make their submissions using the Prime Left Torso with the ECM installed. PGI clearly expects that and thus we will have at least one ECM mech in the next 16 trial mech rotation. We should have similarly at least one with AMS, one with LRMs, one with gauss, erppc, autocannons, lasers, srms, streaks, etc. But 8 cookie cutter clones is NOT going to do new players any service. The last round of eight had laser vomit, UACs, and SRM splatter builds and that was basically it.

Another problem during the last round of champions... everyone tried to maximize the cbill item contents of MC only mechs, by fitting the largest rated XL engines they could to everything (the 380XL in the zeus and 360XL in the Orion IIC), even things that had no business with them installed due to their hitboxes (like the Crab). Anyone with actual knowledge won't be buying them for whatever loadouts the variant gets anyway. They'll be buying them for the 30% XP bonus and then applying their own builds to them. Or they'll be part of a mech mastery bundle deal. Or they'll be given away as event prizes (that's how I got four of my clan champions, during two of the three FW events that happened between Phase 3 and Phase 4.1). Folks talk about how inner sphere mechs last longer with standard engines, then ignore that when making submissions for champion builds. New players do not grasp torso twisting instinctively and will try and face tank any enemy they encounter. Don't penalize them with a design you probably won't be buying anyway as you likely don't need the XP bonus and already own and have mastered the variants anyway when you made your build submission, at least until one of the Hero/Champ 50% sales happen.

Also again, due to the lack of torso twisting and new players not understanding the maps as well (and thus how to position themselves so as to not be snuck up from behind on)... please don't just front load all the torso armor. There should be a reasonable amount to survive a hit from the average weapon in their weight class they might encounter in the game. For Assaults and heavies I am using 10 (covers a UAC10 shot or a PPC), for mediums 8 (C-MPL) and for lights 6 (C-SPL / IS MPL). We also do not know if artillery/airstrike consumables are going away or not under the new skill tree (unlikely since they can be a micro MC transaction for PGI from new players) and as they do up to 15 damage per component, and placing them behind targets is a common tactic, please help the champion/trial users survive such an incident. People who BUY the mechs can do whatever they like to the armor loadouts, but trial mech users do not get to modify the mechs to fix any defects in them.

Also not every new player to the game runs a high end gaming mouse with a dozen fire buttons on it. So if you are going to insist on high heat combinations and/or multiple weapon types... try and bear that in mind when thinking your six fire group build you do so well on...is going to actually be at all useful to a new player with a two button mouse or playing on a laptop with a touch pad. With the exception of ONE of my kodiaks, nothing I've submitted has more than 3 groups (and most have only 2).

We have lots of formerly meta champion builds already, let's submit things than can SURVIVE a switch in meta (all the clan LPL builds last time got a nice 360 meter maximum range nerf from PGI in November, and the UAC/10 builds got a jam period nerf).

[Bombast]

I like this advice in general.

I wish I could help out, but I don't play any of those mechs. So my mediocre, 'From The Mouth Of Someone Barely Out of Potatodom' advice is even less useful than usual.

[Vxheous]

Yes, let's give new players craptastic builds that they can't actually compete with because it's a mess of single LRM + 2 lasers + 1 ballistic of dubious bore size... That will really equip them to succeed in this game.

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

Please remember Tina's instruction...

Keep in mind these will mostly be used by new playersl!

New players have little or no knowledge and understanding of ghost heat scale penalties, proper spacing/chain firing of weapon groups. They also using these champions as trials mechs have no skill tree unlocks so that means no bonus cooling or heat capacity. Nor can they add coolshot consumables to them. One of the Nova submissions was 12 SPL and another was 6 ERSL and 6 SPL. A new player is definitely going to alpha strike at some point in every game, and quite possibly just after the drop during the "weapons test" phase everyone does at some point. That 12 SPL build...76 heat. the 6&6 build... 92 heat. A 6 ERML / 6 SPL build would be 184 heat for an alpha strike. Every build I have submitted has ZERO chance of ghost heat triggering from an alpha strike.

Last time we discussed this, your builds were bad.

Quote

Likewise they cannot have radar deprivation modules to protect them from LRMs, so they actually DO need some mech options with AMS equipped, especially as LRM rainstorms are the new "meta" for new players lately. Of the 16 champions in rotation currently, none have AMS even though a dozen of them have hardpoints for it. New players need to be able to learn for themselves whether or not AMS suits them, or suits their desire to support a team. One AMS might not seem like a lot to us experts...but a small group (2 to 4) of friends trying the game for the first time maybe playing together in group queue...if they ALL have AMS on their trial mechs...that'll add up to some serious anti-missile fire if they stay close together.

I hate to say this, but AMS tends to be crutch. Of course, it's something a newer player needs... but if you build totally around AMS, you're really wasting a mech's potential.

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Of the eight new champions pending, the hellbringer is one and its pretty safe bet that EVERYONE is going to make their submissions using the Prime Left Torso with the ECM installed. PGI clearly expects that and thus we will have at least one ECM mech in the next 16 trial mech rotation. We should have similarly at least one with AMS, one with LRMs, one with gauss, erppc, autocannons, lasers, srms, streaks, etc. But 8 cookie cutter clones is NOT going to do new players any service. The last round of eight had laser vomit, UACs, and SRM splatter builds and that was basically it.

Cookie cutters are usually more optimal than ones that "try to do everything, but are good at nothing".

If you build a Hellbringer w/o the ECM torso, you are totally doing the new player a disservice.

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Another problem during the last round of champions... everyone tried to maximize the cbill item contents of MC only mechs, by fitting the largest rated XL engines they could to everything (the 380XL in the zeus and 360XL in the Orion IIC), even things that had no business with them installed due to their hitboxes (like the Crab). Anyone with actual knowledge won't be buying them for whatever loadouts the variant gets anyway. They'll be buying them for the 30% XP bonus and then applying their own builds to them. Or they'll be part of a mech mastery bundle deal. Or they'll be given away as event prizes (that's how I got four of my clan champions, during two of the three FW events that happened between Phase 3 and Phase 4.1). Folks talk about how inner sphere mechs last longer with standard engines, then ignore that when making submissions for champion builds. New players do not grasp torso twisting instinctively and will try and face tank any enemy they encounter. Don't penalize them with a design you probably won't be buying anyway as you likely don't need the XP bonus and already own and have mastered the variants anyway when you made your build submission, at least until one of the Hero/Champ 50% sales happen.

Mech agility is totally dependent on engines. While new players won't make the most of it initially, is it more vital than making the mech less agile thus becoming easier targets for the opposition. It's better to be faster than you need to be, than slower than you should be.

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Also again, due to the lack of torso twisting and new players not understanding the maps as well (and thus how to position themselves so as to not be snuck up from behind on)... please don't just front load all the torso armor. There should be a reasonable amount to survive a hit from the average weapon in their weight class they might encounter in the game. For Assaults and heavies I am using 10 (covers a UAC10 shot or a PPC), for mediums 8 (C-MPL) and for lights 6 (C-SPL / IS MPL). We also do not know if artillery/airstrike consumables are going away or not under the new skill tree (unlikely since they can be a micro MC transaction for PGI from new players) and as they do up to 15 damage per component, and placing them behind targets is a common tactic, please help the champion/trial users survive such an incident. People who BUY the mechs can do whatever they like to the armor loadouts, but trial mech users do not get to modify the mechs to fix any defects in them.

Your armor ratios are awful. Having 6 points in the back of a Light is waaaay too much. Realistically, the number should be closer to 4. That's not even the point. There is a problem in putting in too much back armor and that results in more frontal deaths (the most common one) than back deaths.

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We have lots of formerly meta champion builds already, let's submit things than can SURVIVE a switch in meta (all the clan LPL builds last time got a nice 360 meter maximum range nerf from PGI in November, and the UAC/10 builds got a jam period nerf).

There's no such thing is a meta-proof mech. At best, you can build a solid build that can be affected to some degree to meta changes.

[NighthawK1337]

I submitted a 3 AMS nova build, is that AMSey enough?

Serious note though, I agree wholeheartedly. We need to consider stuff like them not torso twisting and IS XL engines.
Good post.

Deathlike, on 15 January 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I hate to say this, but AMS tends to be crutch. Of course, it's something a newer player needs... but if you build totally around AMS, you're really wasting a mech's potential.

It's not supposed to be only a person's crutch, but a team's crutch.
You can't expect everybody to have perfect positioning and peeking against LRMs.
I take AMS all the time because I understand that even If I don't need it, somebody in my team will.
My Nova has a positive W/L because of that, my Kitfox almost the same, 1.3.
It's a team game, we should teach newbies to use them all the time right from the start to form their habits.

Edited by NighthawK1337, 15 January 2017 - 03:26 PM.

[King Kahuna]

In my PHX build I tried to keep the feedback from the last round of hero's in mind. With just starting a year ago its a fresh memory for me. New players need a solid mech with good capabilities and a decent heat management.

Another note that helps is using a engine that has other applications. As a new player the cost of engines (especially XL) is daunting. Using engines with possible uses on future mechs can speed their advancement.

The submissions that make the most sense to me take a little time to tell you about the build. There's some good ones and some that just don't make any sense. In some cases its because they require a very elite player and in some they are just bad. It will be interesting to see how this goes in the end.

Builds should also avoid the following items: Ghost Heat, High skill weapons: Gauss/Flamers. Basic premises should be to keep it simple and let the pilot learn the basics of movement, gunnery and managing heat.

Edited by King Kahuna, 15 January 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[Cy Mitchell]

While I do not disagree with the OP the purpose of the Trial Mechs (Champion) are to teach the new player ALL aspects of the game. Heat management, LRM vulnerability, Weapon types, equipment choices are all part of learning the game. A New player should not be given a one dimensional but powerful build, nor should they be give terrible builds that have every available weapon on them but none of them synergize in any way. The builds need to be a bit utilitarian, emphasize the strengths of the particular chassis and provide the chance to win some matches and get some kills while being versatile enough to be competitve in almost any situation. The Mechs need to be a learning platform and the group of them as a whole should teach all the basics of playing the game and give the player a chance to win enough games so as not to discourage him/her from coming back for more.

I think many of the builds do just that. They provide a solid base but they also challenge the player to learn all aspects of the game in order to become successful.

Edited by Rampage, 15 January 2017 - 03:54 PM.

[Deathlike]

NighthawK1337, on 15 January 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

It's not supposed to be only a person's crutch, but a team's crutch.
You can't expect everybody to have perfect positioning and peeking against LRMs.
I take AMS all the time because I understand that even If I don't need it, somebody in my team will.
My Nova has a positive W/L because of that, my Kitfox almost the same, 1.3.
It's a team game, we should teach newbies to use them all the time right from the start to form their habits.

You have to learn to play vs LRMs. Being afraid of them is usually the key to failing. The counter is to actually push aggressively against them (most LRM builds aren't very mobile and are usually vulnerable) while using terrain.

In a team game, the group that identifies and reacts to them quickly and efficiently usually wins.

[RestosIII]

Just... Whatever you do guys, please don't submit sword and board builds preferably. Unless PGI adds a description to the mech build for new players to read, new players will get confused by sword and board builds and not understand why they're dying horribly/losing their weapons instantly.

[Deathlike]

RestosIII, on 15 January 2017 - 03:56 PM, said:

Just... Whatever you do guys, please don't submit sword and board builds preferably. Unless PGI adds a description to the mech build for new players to read, new players will get confused by sword and board builds and not understand why they're dying horribly/losing their weapons instantly.

That can't always be helped, depending on the mech itself. Some mechs are naturally sided a certain way by nature and that's not always fixable.

[RestosIII]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

That can't always be helped, depending on the mech itself. Some mechs are naturally sided a certain way by nature and that's not always fixable.

When I say "sword and board", I mean some of the horrible builds I saw submitted last time, where it had zero armor on one arm, and legs stripped to their bare bones when there's no way a new player is going to know what to do with that. Still think the trial mechs SHOULD get a short little tooltip for how it's supposed to be played though.

[Deathlike]

RestosIII, on 15 January 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

When I say "sword and board", I mean some of the horrible builds I saw submitted last time, where it had zero armor on one arm, and legs stripped to their bare bones when there's no way a new player is going to know what to do with that. Still think the trial mechs SHOULD get a short little tooltip for how it's supposed to be played though.

You are aware this is Lostech right?

[NighthawK1337]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

You have to learn to play vs LRMs. Being afraid of them is usually the key to failing. The counter is to actually push aggressively against them (most LRM builds aren't very mobile and are usually vulnerable) while using terrain.

In a team game, the group that identifies and reacts to them quickly and efficiently usually wins.

I already learned how to, the problem is like I said not everybody on the team did.
Putting AMS in the loadout is playing against LRMs and Having AMS in loadout will help people play more aggresively.
Even just telling your team mates that you have an AMS array will make them motivated to be aggressive from my experience. Being afraid of them is not the issue but being vulnerable to them. Radar Deprivation is not usually carried by newbies. As a long time player I'm sure you've been Narced on polar at least once on an Assault.

[King Kahuna]

RestosIII, on 15 January 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

When I say "sword and board", I mean some of the horrible builds I saw submitted last time, where it had zero armor on one arm, and legs stripped to their bare bones when there's no way a new player is going to know what to do with that. Still think the trial mechs SHOULD get a short little tooltip for how it's supposed to be played though.

Your tooltip idea would have saved me many wasted c-bills when learning this game. Every mech should have a bit of a "how too" tool tip about its basic playstyle and role.

[Dee Eight]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Last time we discussed this, your builds were bad.

Of course...why pass up an opportunity to insult me... well this time many of them are getting votes.

Bungle KDK-2

Only 3 fire groups needed (2xERLL, 1xUAC/10, 2xSPL+SRM6), max sustained dps 6.57, 400XL, 4 JJ, Endo/FF, 21DHS, TC1. 1000 damage of ammo

3 votes so far.

Boo Boo - KDK-4

Again, armor enough for a rear PPC torso shot, 19DHS, Endo/FF, 400XL, TC1 and three fire groups (2xUAC/10, 2xA-SRM6, 4xSPL). 1000 damage of UAC ammo and 600 damage of SRM ammo. Max Sustained DPS 8.80.

6 votes so far.

Grizz - KDK-3

3 fire groups, UAC5s are the top mounted, 1750 damage of ammo, 4 SPL for the inevitable face huggers (PGI may have nerfed the torso twist but we can still move the arms).

2 votes so far


Both my warhammers, three of four novas, two of my other five kodiaks, my only adder and my three other mauler submissions have single votes each. This mauler has a pair of votes so far.

MAL-2P

A close brawler that thanks to the still extreme maximum range of the Inner Shere LB-10s can also reach out a fair distance if required. 5 Tons of LB ammo gives 50 double-shots, 25 double shots from the SRM4s, and 6 Med Pulse to take best advantage of the energy and laser quirks. Even has AMS for the new player who hates LRMs.

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I hate to say this, but AMS tends to be crutch. Of course, it's something a newer player needs... but if you build totally around AMS, you're really wasting a mech's potential.

Except for my only wolfhound submission (already described in my original post), my only built "around" AMS build is this Nova...

Saal - NVA-S

Named for Garthan Saal, the Nova Corp member who led the blockade attempt to intercept Ronan the Accuser's ship over Xandar in the Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Triple AMS w/4 tons of ammo, 6 SPLs and a flamer (just cause I had an extra half ton and energy hardpoint and I didn't want to trigger the ghost heat scaling). Point of this mech is obviously close anti-missile defence of heavier mechs on the team, as well as being able to deal with respectable damage on its own to in a close brawl. Sustained DPS is 6.17 and 51% cooling efficiency.

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Mech agility is totally dependent on engines. While new players won't make the most of it initially, is it more vital than making the mech less agile thus becoming easier targets for the opposition. It's better to be faster than you need to be, than slower than you should be.

Omnis cannot change their engines of course, and other than the kodiak there's no IIC-ish clan mechs up for champion this time and you really can't get better than the 400XL they come with. As to the Inner sphere mechs... yes you can uprate...but do it sensibly for the mech... don't just shove a 340XL into the warhammer unless you've maxed out slots and have the tonnage left over after a 325XL.

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Your armor ratios are awful. Having 6 points in the back of a Light is waaaay too much. Realistically, the number should be closer to 4. That's not even the point. There is a problem in putting in too much back armor and that results in more frontal deaths (the most common one) than back deaths.

Actually no they're not. NOT FOR NEW PLAYERS. Why is this so complicated for you to understand ? How you play a mech at your skill level / tier / group protection, does not translate to how a new player to the game will be using it.

One of my nova's with only a single vote so far (I hope it will get more) I am particularly proud of. With the propensity of MANY players today to camp and poke from the back...here's something with the range to do that.

Denarian.- NVA-D

Named for the Nova Corp rank of Denarian (which is the position Garthan Saal held before his death, and Rhomann Dey assumed afterwards). This should be a liked build for sure...All ballistic with 2 MGs and 2 UAC/2s (and positioned so the UACs go to the higher torso mounts). Six tons of UAC ammo and half a ton for the MGs. TC1. No arm armor instead relying on the bonuses from the arm pods (+9 pts right and +13 left with +6 structure left). By the current quirks the UACs pickup +15% cooldown, +10% range, -20% jam chance and +25% velocity with the computer. The MGs pickup 10% range and 10% velocity. Max sustained DPS is 7.48 with a 108% cooling efficiency.

How nice is that... a mech a new player basically CANNOT overheat. Sorry Restolll about the skimping on arm armor. I needed the tonnage so the MG's would actually be functional to raise the UACs higher and a TC to boost the UAC velocity and crit chances, while still having six tons of ammo for the UACs. At least one of the kodiak submissions someone else put forth which has gotten votes has non-functional MGs to raise its gauss rifles.... something sure to confuse a new player.

Edited by Dee Eight, 15 January 2017 - 04:29 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Mech for new player:

(Speaking as a perpetual potato)

Max armor if practicable. Engine that is at heat sink threshold when possible (250, 275, 300, etc.), endo, and when practicable fero as well (Hey PGI, the past mechs where you gave fero but NOT endo...was that your idea of trolling?). No more than two weapon types (two button play). Other than for lights, weapons must be at least mid range or greater. Heat efficiency must not be worse than 1.3. For IS and excepting again for lights, avoid XL unless it is on super structure/armor quirked chassis. No slow lights.

Beyond that, I say go nuts.

[Dee Eight]

Bud... many LORE variants had FF instead of Endo...because....FASA logic....unfortunately the champion builds based off those lore variants mechs often left the lore FF armor in place because either PGI logic...or lazy players not double-checking/optimizing their submissions better. Many modern computer gamers didn't play D&D or Rifts or Cyberpunk or any other RPGs with complicated rules of character classes and equipment. They never developed proper Munchkin instincts to MinMax bonuses. There's more than one Kodiak submission that has the free slots of FF armor which didn't use it, even though they could have had more points of armor / ammo / better weapons / more heatsinks or even an AMS also from the tonnage saved.

[Carl Vickers]

Just because people are voting for bad builds doesnt make them good builds, just means that potato's are voting for them cause they dont know any better.

[Y E O N N E]

Bud Crue, on 15 January 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

Mech for new player:

(Speaking as a perpetual potato)

Max armor if practicable. Engine that is at heat sink threshold when possible (250, 275, 300, etc.), endo, and when practicable fero as well (Hey PGI, the past mechs where you gave fero but NOT endo...was that your idea of trolling?). No more than two weapon types (two button play). Other than for lights, weapons must be at least mid range or greater. Heat efficiency must not be worse than 1.3. For IS and excepting again for lights, avoid XL unless it is on super structure/armor quirked chassis. No slow lights.

Beyond that, I say go nuts.

Should probably avoid any builds that lean heavily on quirks to be effective.

[Bud Crue]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

Should probably avoid any builds that lean heavily on quirks to be effective.

Well some of the Champions being proposed are for IS mechs, so only being effective via quirks is kind of a given.