77 replies to this topic

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Champion builds should not be the super try hard meta builds that all the weapons on one arm and basically a naked arm on the other. The Stalker and Spider champions IMHO are two of the bests Champion builds. This is coming from someone who used them extensively when I was new to MWO.

Edit: Also the Crab champion is one of the worst champion Mechs, especially if you want cadets to pilot them

Edited by Shiroi Tsuki, 15 January 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Bud... many LORE variants had FF instead of Endo...because....FASA logic....unfortunately the champion builds based off those lore variants mechs often left the lore FF armor in place because either PGI logic...or lazy players not double-checking/optimizing their submissions better. Many modern computer gamers didn't play D&D or Rifts or Cyberpunk or any other RPGs with complicated rules of character classes and equipment. They never developed proper Munchkin instincts to MinMax bonuses. There's more than one Kodiak submission that has the free slots of FF armor which didn't use it, even though they could have had more points of armor / ammo / better weapons / more heatsinks or even an AMS also from the tonnage saved.

Bah. Bad design "because lore" does not justify bad design choices here. That plus making new players spend 100,000s of thousands of C-bills to fix that bad design is...further bad design.

[Tarogato]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Spoiler

Of course...why pass up an opportunity to insult me... well this time many of them are getting votes.

Bungle KDK-2

Only 3 fire groups needed (2xERLL, 1xUAC/10, 2xSPL+SRM6), max sustained dps 6.57, 400XL, 4 JJ, Endo/FF, 21DHS, TC1. 1000 damage of ammo

3 votes so far.

Boo Boo - KDK-4

Again, armor enough for a rear PPC torso shot, 19DHS, Endo/FF, 400XL, TC1 and three fire groups (2xUAC/10, 2xA-SRM6, 4xSPL). 1000 damage of UAC ammo and 600 damage of SRM ammo. Max Sustained DPS 8.80.

6 votes so far.

Grizz - KDK-3

3 fire groups, UAC5s are the top mounted, 1750 damage of ammo, 4 SPL for the inevitable face huggers (PGI may have nerfed the torso twist but we can still move the arms).

2 votes so far


Both my warhammers, three of four novas, two of my other five kodiaks, my only adder and my three other mauler submissions have single votes each. This mauler has a pair of votes so far.

MAL-2P

A close brawler that thanks to the still extreme maximum range of the Inner Shere LB-10s can also reach out a fair distance if required. 5 Tons of LB ammo gives 50 double-shots, 25 double shots from the SRM4s, and 6 Med Pulse to take best advantage of the energy and laser quirks. Even has AMS for the new player who hates LRMs.





Except for my only wolfhound submission (already described in my original post), my only built "around" AMS build is this Nova...

Saal - NVA-S

Named for Garthan Saal, the Nova Corp member who led the blockade attempt to intercept Ronan the Accuser's ship over Xandar in the Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Triple AMS w/4 tons of ammo, 6 SPLs and a flamer (just cause I had an extra half ton and energy hardpoint and I didn't want to trigger the ghost heat scaling). Point of this mech is obviously close anti-missile defence of heavier mechs on the team, as well as being able to deal with respectable damage on its own to in a close brawl. Sustained DPS is 6.17 and 51% cooling efficiency.





Omnis cannot change their engines of course, and other than the kodiak there's no IIC-ish clan mechs up for champion this time and you really can't get better than the 400XL they come with. As to the Inner sphere mechs... yes you can uprate...but do it sensibly for the mech... don't just shove a 340XL into the warhammer unless you've maxed out slots and have the tonnage left over after a 325XL.




Actually no they're not. NOT FOR NEW PLAYERS. Why is this so complicated for you to understand ? How you play a mech at your skill level / tier / group protection, does not translate to how a new player to the game will be using it.

One of my nova's with only a single vote so far (I hope it will get more) I am particularly proud of. With the propensity of MANY players today to camp and poke from the back...here's something with the range to do that.

Denarian.- NVA-D

Named for the Nova Corp rank of Denarian (which is the position Garthan Saal held before his death, and Rhomann Dey assumed afterwards). This should be a liked build for sure...All ballistic with 2 MGs and 2 UAC/2s (and positioned so the UACs go to the higher torso mounts). Six tons of UAC ammo and half a ton for the MGs. TC1. No arm armor instead relying on the bonuses from the arm pods (+9 pts right and +13 left with +6 structure left). By the current quirks the UACs pickup +15% cooldown, +10% range, -20% jam chance and +25% velocity with the computer. The MGs pickup 10% range and 10% velocity. Max sustained DPS is 7.48 with a 108% cooling efficiency.

How nice is that... a mech a new player basically CANNOT overheat. Sorry Restolll about the skimping on arm armor. I needed the tonnage so the MG's would actually be functional to raise the UACs higher and a TC to boost the UAC velocity and crit chances, while still having six tons of ammo for the UACs. At least one of the kodiak submissions someone else put forth which has gotten votes has non-functional MGs to raise its gauss rifles.... something sure to confuse a new player.

Wow those builds are bad.

That is how you encourage people to be bad at the game. Right there.

[Y E O N N E]

Bud Crue, on 15 January 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Well some of the Champions being proposed are for IS mechs, so only being effective via quirks is kind of a given.

Not necessarily. Remember these are really for newer players, which means T5-T3 mostly.

I'm rather fond of my recent submission. It's classic AC/20 + lasers, only the Warhammer's perfect hard-point placement and generous hard-point count makes it so much better than on any other Heavy. It's essentially immune to quirk nerfs, too. Can't go wrong with a 50-point ka-pow to the face. The only comparable alternative chassis for this kind of payload is the MAD-5M that can run a little bit faster and trades one laser for a pair of jump jets (also, why aren't Marauders up for Champion builds?).

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 15 January 2017 - 04:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Of course...why pass up an opportunity to insult me... well this time many of them are getting votes.

Bungle KDK-2


Only 3 fire groups needed (2xERLL, 1xUAC/10, 2xSPL+SRM6), max sustained dps 6.57, 400XL, 4 JJ, Endo/FF, 21DHS, TC1. 1000 damage of ammo

3 votes so far.

It's bad. It's a literal definition of a Frankenmech or at least an attempt of "jack of all trades". 1 SRM6 is a non-starter, and 2 CERLL are really suboptimal... primarily because of the arms (if it were CLPL, it wouldn't be as bad). It's a waste of firepower to do... what exactly?

Citing DPS #s is a waste of time to boot.

Quote

Boo Boo - KDK-4

Again, armor enough for a rear PPC torso shot, 19DHS, Endo/FF, 400XL, TC1 and three fire groups (2xUAC/10, 2xA-SRM6, 4xSPL). 1000 damage of UAC ammo and 600 damage of SRM ammo. Max Sustained DPS 8.80.

6 votes so far.

That looks rather underwhelming. I see more firepower from a Spirit Bear (even though they are not valid options) and it feels like you're trying to fill in every slots for the sake of doing it.

Quote

Grizz - KDK-3

3 fire groups, UAC5s are the top mounted, 1750 damage of ammo, 4 SPL for the inevitable face huggers (PGI may have nerfed the torso twist but we can still move the arms).

2 votes so far

The SPLs are too much of a filler. Once they are removed and ammo and DHS are added... it suddenly becomes meta. Ermahgod wow.

Quote

Both my warhammers, three of four novas, two of my other five kodiaks, my only adder and my three other mauler submissions have single votes each. This mauler has a pair of votes so far.

MAL-2P

A close brawler that thanks to the still extreme maximum range of the Inner Shere LB-10s can also reach out a fair distance if required. 5 Tons of LB ammo gives 50 double-shots, 25 double shots from the SRM4s, and 6 Med Pulse to take best advantage of the energy and laser quirks. Even has AMS for the new player who hates LRMs.

Awful. Maulers commonly LOSE a side torso. Might as well accelerate death needlessly.

Quote

Except for my only wolfhound submission (already described in my original post), my only built "around" AMS build is this Nova...

Saal - NVA-S

Named for Garthan Saal, the Nova Corp member who led the blockade attempt to intercept Ronan the Accuser's ship over Xandar in the Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Triple AMS w/4 tons of ammo, 6 SPLs and a flamer (just cause I had an extra half ton and energy hardpoint and I didn't want to trigger the ghost heat scaling). Point of this mech is obviously close anti-missile defence of heavier mechs on the team, as well as being able to deal with respectable damage on its own to in a close brawl. Sustained DPS is 6.17 and 51% cooling efficiency.

Totally underwhelming as even the most brawly of Nova builds are more powerful than this, and don't even touch AMS.

Quote

Omnis cannot change their engines of course, and other than the kodiak there's no IIC-ish clan mechs up for champion this time and you really can't get better than the 400XL they come with. As to the Inner sphere mechs... yes you can uprate...but do it sensibly for the mech... don't just shove a 340XL into the warhammer unless you've maxed out slots and have the tonnage left over after a 325XL.

I'm talking about battlemechs when it comes to engines. Omnimechs are what they are (for better of worse), but are still good for the most part.

Quote

Actually no they're not. NOT FOR NEW PLAYERS. Why is this so complicated for you to understand ? How you play a mech at your skill level / tier / group protection, does not translate to how a new player to the game will be using it.

One of my nova's with only a single vote so far (I hope it will get more) I am particularly proud of. With the propensity of MANY players today to camp and poke from the back...here's something with the range to do that.

Denarian.- NVA-D

Named for the Nova Corp rank of Denarian (which is the position Garthan Saal held before his death, and Rhomann Dey assumed afterwards). This should be a liked build for sure...All ballistic with 2 MGs and 2 UAC/2s (and positioned so the UACs go to the higher torso mounts). Six tons of UAC ammo and half a ton for the MGs. TC1. No arm armor instead relying on the bonuses from the arm pods (+9 pts right and +13 left with +6 structure left). By the current quirks the UACs pickup +15% cooldown, +10% range, -20% jam chance and +25% velocity with the computer. The MGs pickup 10% range and 10% velocity. Max sustained DPS is 7.48 with a 108% cooling efficiency.

How nice is that... a mech a new player basically CANNOT overheat. Sorry Restolll about the skimping on arm armor. I needed the tonnage so the MG's would actually be functional to raise the UACs higher and a TC to boost the UAC velocity and crit chances, while still having six tons of ammo for the UACs. At least one of the kodiak submissions someone else put forth which has gotten votes has non-functional MGs to raise its gauss rifles.... something sure to confuse a new player.

Totally overrated.

2 MGs don't really do much (4 is like minimum/mandatory) and UAC2 builds are better on the Hunchback-IIC for whatever the reason (mostly because they can fit more and configure it better).

That's just an awful build outright anyways.

[Bud Crue]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Not necessarily. Remember these are really for newer players, which means T5-T3 mostly.

I'm rather fond of my recent submission. It's classic AC/20 + lasers, only the Warhammer's perfect hard-point placement and generous hard-point count makes it so much better than on any other Heavy. It's essentially immune to quirk nerfs, too. Can't go wrong with a 50-point ka-pow to the face. The only comparable alternative chassis for this kind of payload is the MAD-5M that can run a little bit faster and trades one laser for a pair of jump jets (also, why aren't Marauders up for Champion builds?).

I like that build and I run a very similar build. That being said, I would not call that a particularly new player friendly build. Its too situational. If the noob rushing out manages to get close then yeah, that noob is gonna have some fun. But In most matches I play (T3, I see everything) that mech is gonna get torn apart by long range fire. I'd think something wherein for said noob, instead of an AC20, you went with 2AC5s and a std 285 or something along those lines. Thoughts?

Edited by Bud Crue, 15 January 2017 - 04:57 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bud Crue, on 15 January 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I like that build and I run a very similar build. That being said, I would not call that a particularly new player friendly build. Its too situational. Hes if the noob rushing out manages to get close then yeah, that noob is gonna have some fun. But In most matches I play (T3, I see everything) that mech is gonna get torn apart by long range fire.

I'm just recalling my experiences on my alt at T4; there was no quality long-range fire. It was a jumbled mess of people trying to engage with plenty of opportunity to get close because even the long range weapons were going all over the place, if not missing outright. The MedLas + AC/20 combo is flexible enough even at T1 that it can do some major work with just a little bit of early game patience.

I believe in a little bit of tough love; I think it would be something of a disservice if the n00b 'Mechs were the god-mode 'Mechs since A.) they will fail to learn the fundamentals and B.) it will catapult them into matches with more experienced players they are inadequately prepared for.

The only other "new-player friendly" option, honestly, would be the 3xLPL + 4x ML WHM-6D, but that one adds in the XL which they may or may not understand yet and that, IMHO, is a bigger drawback than having to wait a little bit for the fight to get to within 350 or so meters. Also, the heat is considerable. I still see people shutting down their laser vomit 'Mechs in my matches.

[Dee Eight]

If my builds are so bad...submit your own wonder meta builds and then get your elite non-potato members to vote them up...but remember... its not the MOST votes this time around... its the top 3 and PGI is going to have a discussion thread of each 3 finalists and then make their own decision which could include changes to the entries.

I'll leave you with this one...two fire groups and better range synergy than ERPPC-Gauss combos, and less complicated for new players (no charge mechanic).

Bozo - KDK-3


A variation on my Ben KDK-3 build, 9.00 DPS on just the autocannons, except now its pinpoint fire at 2200m/sec thanks to the TC2 with a 900m optimal and a 777m beam range is closer together than the 660/810m of a Gaus/ERPPC. 900 total shots of ammo gives 162.5 seconds of CONTINUOUS fire and the potential for 1800 damage on the ACs alone. And I'm sorry if 8 pinpoint damage every 3/4 of a second for 2.4 heat out to 900 meters JUST isn't good enough for a new player because it doesn't fall into the gauss/ppc meta cookie mold. In the time it takes those two gauss to cooldown and then be charged again (and at that distance btw, they are only doing 9.5 damage each) the C-AC/2s will have fired six more times.

Edited by Dee Eight, 15 January 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

Bozo - KDK-3


A variation on my Ben KDK-3 build, 9.00 DPS on just the autocannons, except now its pinpoint fire at 2200m/sec thanks to the TC2 with a 900m optimal and a 777m beam range is closer together than the 660/810m of a Gaus/ERPPC. 900 total shots of ammo gives 162.5 seconds of CONTINUOUS fire and the potential for 1800 damage on the ACs alone.

That on 100 tons of mech, just no.

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

If my builds are so bad...submit your own wonder meta builds and then get your elite non-potato members to vote them up...but remember... its not the MOST votes this time around... its the top 3 and PGI is going to have a discussion thread of each 3 finalists and then make their own decision which could include changes to the entries.

Potatoes will be voting for potato builds.

Even if I submit my builds, it never going to get the attention it needs to win the vote. At that point, anything but potato build is the goal.

Quote

I'll leave you with this one...two fire groups and better range synergy than ERPPC-Gauss combos, and less complicated for new players (no charge mechanic).

Bozo - KDK-3


A variation on my Ben KDK-3 build, 9.00 DPS on just the autocannons, except now its pinpoint fire at 2200m/sec thanks to the TC2 with a 900m optimal and a 777m beam range is closer together than the 660/810m of a Gaus/ERPPC. 900 total shots of ammo gives 162.5 seconds of CONTINUOUS fire and the potential for 1800 damage on the ACs alone.

Just awful. Total waste of a Kodiak-3.

This is why we shouldn't balance for potatoes. You don't know what the standard of competence is, let alone excellence. You can't balance the game with poor understanding of weapon mechanics and mech behavior.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 January 2017 - 05:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bud Crue, on 15 January 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'd think something wherein for said noob, instead of an AC20, you went with 2AC5s and a std 285 or something along those lines. Thoughts?

I hesitate with AC/5 because they require a lot of face-staring and yet they don't have the output to pull it off. So we're reducing the alpha size by 10 and encouraging bad habits on a build that can't work that way to gain some range with a weapon that requires effort to actually use at that range.

Eh. Maybe. Perhaps UAC/5 on a STD 280, but I think we're starting to run too slow for a new player, making it harder for them to recover from a mistake in positioning, and the temptation to fire those lasers with the UACs running is going to get a lot of people killed.

There's also the AC/10 version.

[Vxheous]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

If my builds are so bad...submit your own wonder meta builds and then get your elite non-potato members to vote them up...but remember... its not the MOST votes this time around... its the top 3 and PGI is going to have a discussion thread of each 3 finalists and then make their own decision which could include changes to the entries.

I'll leave you with this one...two fire groups and better range synergy than ERPPC-Gauss combos, and less complicated for new players (no charge mechanic).

Bozo - KDK-3


A variation on my Ben KDK-3 build, 9.00 DPS on just the autocannons, except now its pinpoint fire at 2200m/sec thanks to the TC2 with a 900m optimal and a 777m beam range is closer together than the 660/810m of a Gaus/ERPPC. 900 total shots of ammo gives 162.5 seconds of CONTINUOUS fire and the potential for 1800 damage on the ACs alone. And I'm sorry if 8 pinpoint damage every 3/4 of a second for 2.4 heat out to 900 meters JUST isn't good enough for a new player because it doesn't fall into the gauss/ppc meta cookie mold. In the time it takes those two gauss to cooldown and then be charged again (and at that distance btw, they are only doing 9.5 damage each) the C-AC/2s will have fired six more times.

That....is bad. As to gauss mechanic, when my wife first started playing this game, I put her in a Gauss +4CERML hellbringer. With no real prior online fps experience (she's played some family lan games of unreal 2k4 at holidays) it took her all of 2 days to figure out how to use the gauss mechanic. It is not that hard to figure out. (and yes, my wife is Tier 1)

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 15 January 2017 - 05:18 PM.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 January 2017 - 05:14 PM, said:

I hesitate with AC/5 because they require a lot of face-staring and yet they don't have the output to pull it off. So we're reducing the alpha size by 10 and encouraging bad habits on a build that can't work that way to gain some range with a weapon that requires effort to actually use at that range.

Eh. Maybe. Perhaps UAC/5 on a STD 280, but I think we're starting to run too slow for a new player, making it harder for them to recover from a mistake in positioning, and the temptation to fire those lasers with the UACs running is going to get a lot of people killed.

There's also the AC/10 version.

Personally, there is a bad tendency when using UAC5s to just keep staring at the target (just for the purpose of keeping shots on target for sustain) while forgetting about personal exposure.

I'm not saying the UAC5 build is bad, it's just what tends to happen for that kind of dakka.

[BCAW]

Just want to pitch in some of my concern here. I personally think that while a trial mech should be a viable build, it shouldn't be super-meta or too easy to play, because that lead to newcomers developing bad habits. There are lot of meta dakka-bear builds on the thread for the Kodiak champion build thread; personally, I don't think that's a good build for a newcomer, because in tier 5, playing a dakkabear is pretty much a point and double-click adventure; newbies will think all they have to do to succeed in this game is to charge forward and double-click as hard as they can. If that's the kind of player you want on your team, then by all means, vote for the meta dakkabear.

[Dee Eight]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Just awful. Total waste of a Kodiak-3.

This is why we shouldn't balance for potatoes. You don't know what the standard of competence is, let alone excellence. You can't balance the game with poor understanding of weapon mechanics and mech behavior.

Its more a case of you refuse to accept any other player's opinions because of preset notions you have. Those of us who don't follow those notions are potatoes or terribads or whatever derogatory term you wish to use. Thus its pointless attempting to discuss actual facts of the game with you. .

[Deathlike]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 15 January 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

That....is bad. As to gauss mechanic, when my wife furst started playing this game, I put her in a Gauss +4CERML hellbringer. With no real prior online fps experience (she's played some family lan games of unreal 2k4 at holidays) it took her all of 2 days to figure out how to use the gauss mechanic. It is not that hard to figure out. (and yes, my wife is Tier 1)

You're Tier potato in her heart. <3

[Adette]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 15 January 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

That....is bad. As to gauss mechanic, when my wife first started playing this game, I put her in a Gauss +4CERML hellbringer. With no real prior online fps experience (she's played some family lan games of unreal 2k4 at holidays) it took her all of 2 days to figure out how to use the gauss mechanic. It is not that hard to figure out. (and yes, my wife is Tier 1)

Can Confirm

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

Its more a case of you refuse to accept any other player's opinions because of preset notions you have. Those of us who don't follow those notions are potatoes or terribads or whatever derogatory term you wish to use. Thus its pointless attempting to discuss actual facts of the game with you. .

I accept opinions just fine. I simply don't accept bad builds/tactics/ideas that when tested against the top tier of play tend to fall very flat.

I believe in success and consistency, not randomness and chaos.

[Vxheous]

Deathlike, on 15 January 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

You're Tier potato in her heart. <3

Pretty sure if she played on the i5 6600K 4.6Ghz + GTX 1070 machine instead of the Laptop with Dual GTX 765m (SLi scaling in this game is terrible) she would probably outpace me most matches.

Couple more years and I'll have my oldest daughter farming potatoes. She's 5 right now, but she watches me play and even called out a "red target" the other day. "Daddy, that's YY (pronouned why why)." Whywhy!!!?? is right, that's called a LRM 60 Spirit Bear.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 15 January 2017 - 05:25 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Dee Eight, on 15 January 2017 - 05:18 PM, said:

Its more a case of you refuse to accept any other player's opinions because of preset notions you have. Those of us who don't follow those notions are potatoes or terribads or whatever derogatory term you wish to use. Thus its pointless attempting to discuss actual facts of the game with you. .

Come on man, you have seen how I do in 'meta' mechs in QP when we have played together, you know they work.