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Blood Asp Vs. Mad Cat Mk Ii


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#1 CK16

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:36 AM

So here we are, finally on to the next era for MWO. With many high hopes now with future tech and mechs there is plenty of speculation now on about X mech or Y mech, woth that debates over how OP or DoA these might end up being in game.

This is a series I want to make between contenders for the March announcement. Going after the most popular mechs of that era.

In the Assault class for clan we have two distinct mechs.....

In the red corner is the Blood Asp, 90 tons of dreadful Omnimech!
Posted Image
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Blood_Asp

In the blue corner is the Mad Cat Mk II, the bad a$s baby hulked brother to the Timberwolf, a battlemech coming in at 90 tons!
Posted Image
http://www.sarna.net...i/Mad_Cat_Mk_II

This I am sure will be a tough fight for either. So what do you guys think about these two (serious discussion no petty grudges)

Edited by CK16, 18 January 2017 - 07:51 AM.


#2 Hit the Deck

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:39 AM

Mad Cat Mk. II has better hardpoints layout, position, and overall body geometry. Bigger arms which cover the majority of the ST.

Blood Asp has ECM.

Both should have been 85 tonners so the JJs only weigh 1 ton each.

#3 brroleg

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:48 AM

Since jump jets is now nerfed into oblivion, they sure will be just dead weight for MKII, and since PGI likes to lock all useless junk on Omni mechs, i bet that MadCat MkII in this game will perform weaker than Blood Asp.
Cause Blood Asp does not have anything (no jump jets, no MASC, no BAP, etc) that PGI can turn into useless locked junk.

But i like the look of MadCat MkII, and it was one of my favorite mechs in MW4

Edited by brroleg, 18 January 2017 - 07:48 AM.


#4 Bombast

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:48 AM

View PostCK16, on 18 January 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

In the Assault class for clan we have two distinct mechs.....

Dictionary said:

Distinct - readily distinguishable by the senses.

Posted Image




View PostCK16, on 18 January 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

In the blue corner is the Mad Mk II...

Posted Image



Anyway, I'll break with my usual 'Don't gimme redux' designs and take the one that doesn't have ballistic hard points literally on the highest points actually possible.

Edited by Bombast, 18 January 2017 - 07:49 AM.


#5 Lily from animove

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:50 AM

it really depends on the geometry they both get. Like the ears, ST coverage with arms, CT coverage with arms and ST's and of course harpdoint locations.

MK II may have better hardoints, necause more energy ones. I wodner hwo that M hardpoint belwo the cockpit would fire lrm's xD would eb a funny sight from the cockpit. But as it looks like, gaussing may be better in the asp, due to the higher hardpoints.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 January 2017 - 07:52 AM.


#6 Hit the Deck

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:53 AM

View Postbrroleg, on 18 January 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

...
But i like the look of MadCat MkII...

Who doesn't like a bigger Timberwolf? Posted Image

Apparently a number of people because they say that it's an abomination, but I still like it! (cuz I was too ignorant back then)

#7 Lily from animove

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:55 AM

Oh yeah, and I prefer this version of the asp:

Posted Image

cockpit looks more badass, and those urbie leg warmers are just amazing

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 January 2017 - 09:11 AM.


#8 AWOL 01

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:55 AM

Posted Image

(Personally I would pick the Blood Asp)

#9 xTrident

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:55 AM

The Mad Cat MKII might possibly be the first and only mech I pre-order...

#10 Mechteric

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 07:58 AM

Blood Asp, because it's pretty badass looking. The mk II is fine and all, but we already have a mech that looks like it.

#11 Kasumi Sumika

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:04 AM

Mad Cat mk.II

Design more appealing to me and I have lot of fun with Mad Cat mk.II in Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries.

#12 cazidin

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:08 AM

I was paid a sufficient number of shrubbery dollars to endorse the Mad Cat MK II. A shame that they spontaneously combusted last night, destroying my beautiful garden. Still, I vote Mad Cat MK II.

#13 Zacharias McLeod

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:10 AM

View Postbrroleg, on 18 January 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Since jump jets is now nerfed into oblivion, they sure will be just dead weight for MKII, and since PGI likes to lock all useless junk on Omni mechs, i bet that MadCat MkII in this game will perform weaker than Blood Asp.
Cause Blood Asp does not have anything (no jump jets, no MASC, no BAP, etc) that PGI can turn into useless locked junk.

But i like the look of MadCat MkII, and it was one of my favorite mechs in MW4

Mad Cat MK2 is a BattleMech and not an OmniMech.

The Blood Asp is the OmniMech.

I would say the Blood Asp will be better beacause you can swap the OmniPods and the Mad Cat MK2 hat locked hardpoints.

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 18 January 2017 - 08:12 AM.


#14 1453 R

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:17 AM

The Blood Asp is God's gift to ballistic 'Mechs, with skyhook cannon hardpoints mated to a relatively high-mounted cockpit permitting the ultimate in hull-down shooting. It also comes with 6E stock in its primary configuration, which is enough for most larger laser boats, and with the faintly possible addition of ATMs incoming, even the singleton missile hardpoint might not be a total waste.

The Asp also has both jets and ECM in its Alt. A pods. The Bravo mounts ECM, as well, so depending on introduced designs we might see the first 'Mech with a choice of ECM locations. The Delta pods allow for multiple boated ballistics, though not necessarily in the Prime's skyhooks. Riffs on the Echo or Fox would allow for missile spam. A 360 engine for a 90-tonner isn't really that overengined, despite all the claims of 85-tonner efficiency, and the 'Mech's overall shape is not awful.

If introduced, the Blood Asp would be an immediate 5/5 and probably usurp the Kodiak as the best Clan assault 'Mech in the game. It gets the full 64kph movement profile with a 360 instead of a 400, the same top-mount Supah Hardpoints for ballistic power sniping, and a much better array of secondary equipment across its various pods. it couldn't do KDK-3 QuaDakka spam, but QuaDakka hasn't really been the issue for a while now. Everything else the Kodiak does, the Asp does better. It is probably the most powerful assault design in all the TROs for the Clan side, insofar as MWO performance goes. Once the Asp is in, it's all downhill from there.

***********

The Mk. II isn't nearly so gifted, unfortunately. The Gauss rifles in its Prime fit are pretty much precisely cockpit height, and omission of the design's missiles would also make for an excellent hull-down ballistic sniper. One could argue that the location of the Mk. II's torso-mounted energy points and its ability to downgrade its engine allows it to be a better dual Gosse/dual PPC heavy sniper than either the Blood Asp (low energy hardpoints, inability to switch engine) or the Kodiak (low, way off-bore energy hardpoints means weird exposure for PPC fire). If Class I jets ever stop sucking, the Mk. II would potentially be the new King of Toaster Pastries, but that's a title nobody really wants to bear.

In terms of straight-up combat, however, the Mk. II would be soundly beaten by the Blood Asp. 2B/6E is all you really need for even an assault 'Mech, and multiple ballistics in the arms of the Mk. II, if hardpoints were inflated there, limits it to lighter cannons. As well, some of the Mk. II's variant designs are weird even by FutureTech standards. The Enhanced, for example, is basically not coming, though the Mk. II 2 offers some SRM-spam potential. Beyond those, there's not much in the Mk. II's variants that offers a lot of new'n'different. The 4 lets you do heavy energy cannons in the arms if you prefer, but that's about it.

The Mk. II potentially shields well if the art is to be believed, but I'm not sure how well those big gunpod arms would translate to MWO. The modelers have let us down that way before. Also this is going to be a 'Mech with no elbows, similar to the Cauldron-Born, which would give the nod to the Asp in a close-quarters scrum. The Mk. II does get to optimize its frame, however, with free-floating structure upgrades and moddable engines a'la BattleMech customization, and theoretically its prime fit alone is enough to get its primary task done.

***********

Overall, I believe the Asp to be a stronger offering. The presence of ECM, pod-jets allowing it to jump if it likes or not if it doesn't (so no ground lost to the Mk. II), and the greater overall flexibility of its weapons mounts across its various configurations gives it an edge. The Mk. II has "safer" Gauss rifles in the arms rather than the torso and a flatter overall hardpoint layout on a shorter overall 'Mech, making for a potentially somewhat more efficient hill sniper, but it would be much less able to defend itself in a scrum or configure for close combat than the Asp. Both of them are saddled with Class I jets so neither of them can properly jump for spit.

Either design would likely be stronger than any Clan assault 'Mech not named Kodiak or Marauder right now, and arguments can be made that either design might well dethrone the KDK-3 as the King of Gauss. The Asp almost certainly would, if it were released, while the Mk. II might take some finagling and playerbase-adoption.

My vote, between the two, would have to go to the Asp. In part because I want to see what heavy lasers and ATMs would look like and we kinda need both to import the Asp properly, and in part because I enjoy watching Imperious squirm :P

#15 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:20 AM

View PostAWOL 01, on 18 January 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

Posted Image

Or neither.

#16 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:23 AM

For some strange reason, the only thing I remember about the mad cat mk ii from mechwarrior 4 is it having paper thin armor in comparison to other assault mechs in the game.

Hopefully I'm wrong about that & falsely imagining the mad cat ii having a glass jaw.

#17 brroleg

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:34 AM

View PostI Zeratul I, on 18 January 2017 - 08:23 AM, said:

For some strange reason, the only thing I remember about the mad cat mk ii from mechwarrior 4 is it having paper thin armor in comparison to other assault mechs in the game.

Hopefully I'm wrong about that & falsely imagining the mad cat ii having a glass jaw.


Yes, it was glass cannon in MW4, and is glass cannon in MWLL now. But pretty cool looking glass cannon

Posted Image

#18 Hit the Deck

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:40 AM

View Post1453 R, on 18 January 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

The Mk. II isn't nearly so gifted, unfortunately. The Gauss rifles in its Prime fit are pretty much precisely cockpit height...

That should actually be the aim of a hypothetical 'Mech designer: all weapons are at cockpit level and not higher while the cockpit itself is mounted as high as possible on the chassis.

#19 1453 R

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 08:53 AM

View PostHit the Deck, on 18 January 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

That should actually be the aim of a hypothetical 'Mech designer: all weapons are at cockpit level and not higher while the cockpit itself is mounted as high as possible on the chassis.


True. And the Mk. II does have its weapons clustered in a noticeably tighter horizontal region than the Asp does. But the Asp has better weapons in many of its configurations, and missile-equipped Mk. IIs suffer Cauldron-Born problems. That and ECM is a big assist for large sniper units trying to obfuscate their position; it's not an Invis-O-Team Godbox so much anymore but it's still quite excellent personal protection.

#20 Metus regem

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 09:13 AM

View Post1453 R, on 18 January 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

The Blood Asp is God's gift to ballistic 'Mechs, with skyhook cannon hardpoints mated to a relatively high-mounted cockpit permitting the ultimate in hull-down shooting. It also comes with 6E stock in its primary configuration, which is enough for most larger laser boats, and with the faintly possible addition of ATMs incoming, even the singleton missile hardpoint might not be a total waste.

The Asp also has both jets and ECM in its Alt. A pods. The Bravo mounts ECM, as well, so depending on introduced designs we might see the first 'Mech with a choice of ECM locations. The Delta pods allow for multiple boated ballistics, though not necessarily in the Prime's skyhooks. Riffs on the Echo or Fox would allow for missile spam. A 360 engine for a 90-tonner isn't really that overengined, despite all the claims of 85-tonner efficiency, and the 'Mech's overall shape is not awful.

If introduced, the Blood Asp would be an immediate 5/5 and probably usurp the Kodiak as the best Clan assault 'Mech in the game. It gets the full 64kph movement profile with a 360 instead of a 400, the same top-mount Supah Hardpoints for ballistic power sniping, and a much better array of secondary equipment across its various pods. it couldn't do KDK-3 QuaDakka spam, but QuaDakka hasn't really been the issue for a while now. Everything else the Kodiak does, the Asp does better. It is probably the most powerful assault design in all the TROs for the Clan side, insofar as MWO performance goes. Once the Asp is in, it's all downhill from there.

***********

The Mk. II isn't nearly so gifted, unfortunately. The Gauss rifles in its Prime fit are pretty much precisely cockpit height, and omission of the design's missiles would also make for an excellent hull-down ballistic sniper. One could argue that the location of the Mk. II's torso-mounted energy points and its ability to downgrade its engine allows it to be a better dual Gosse/dual PPC heavy sniper than either the Blood Asp (low energy hardpoints, inability to switch engine) or the Kodiak (low, way off-bore energy hardpoints means weird exposure for PPC fire). If Class I jets ever stop sucking, the Mk. II would potentially be the new King of Toaster Pastries, but that's a title nobody really wants to bear.

In terms of straight-up combat, however, the Mk. II would be soundly beaten by the Blood Asp. 2B/6E is all you really need for even an assault 'Mech, and multiple ballistics in the arms of the Mk. II, if hardpoints were inflated there, limits it to lighter cannons. As well, some of the Mk. II's variant designs are weird even by FutureTech standards. The Enhanced, for example, is basically not coming, though the Mk. II 2 offers some SRM-spam potential. Beyond those, there's not much in the Mk. II's variants that offers a lot of new'n'different. The 4 lets you do heavy energy cannons in the arms if you prefer, but that's about it.

The Mk. II potentially shields well if the art is to be believed, but I'm not sure how well those big gunpod arms would translate to MWO. The modelers have let us down that way before. Also this is going to be a 'Mech with no elbows, similar to the Cauldron-Born, which would give the nod to the Asp in a close-quarters scrum. The Mk. II does get to optimize its frame, however, with free-floating structure upgrades and moddable engines a'la BattleMech customization, and theoretically its prime fit alone is enough to get its primary task done.

***********

Overall, I believe the Asp to be a stronger offering. The presence of ECM, pod-jets allowing it to jump if it likes or not if it doesn't (so no ground lost to the Mk. II), and the greater overall flexibility of its weapons mounts across its various configurations gives it an edge. The Mk. II has "safer" Gauss rifles in the arms rather than the torso and a flatter overall hardpoint layout on a shorter overall 'Mech, making for a potentially somewhat more efficient hill sniper, but it would be much less able to defend itself in a scrum or configure for close combat than the Asp. Both of them are saddled with Class I jets so neither of them can properly jump for spit.

Either design would likely be stronger than any Clan assault 'Mech not named Kodiak or Marauder right now, and arguments can be made that either design might well dethrone the KDK-3 as the King of Gauss. The Asp almost certainly would, if it were released, while the Mk. II might take some finagling and playerbase-adoption.

My vote, between the two, would have to go to the Asp. In part because I want to see what heavy lasers and ATMs would look like and we kinda need both to import the Asp properly, and in part because I enjoy watching Imperious squirm Posted Image



This is pretty much my thoughts as well on the two, from a TT perspective, both are about even, though I am less thrilled to engage Blood Asp's than Mk. II's for the most part, largely due to the amount of armour difference between them (16t standard, 256 points on the Blood Asp vs. 249 points [13t of FF] on the Mk. II), granted it is only 2% coverage difference, but 2% can mean the difference between get into crits or not.





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