31 replies to this topic

[Robinson Crusher]

Three things have combined to convert me from a happy paying customer to someone who is just around for a limited time while others pay for the ride:
1) Bad experiences with other MMOs (Star Trek Online in particular)
2) The announcement that the new skill system will involve substantial work to grind up.
3) The announcement that respecs will cost EC and MC (*Edit: C-Bills and MC. Momentarily stuck in the wrong game)

Now while I am enough of a Battletech/Mechwarrior fan (going back to the eighties) that I'm hoping this post will get noticed for it's attempt to be constructive, I've been a hardcore trekker from 1966. So it was a big thing for me when the above factors drove me out of STO last February. Admittedly Perfect World Entertainment is a MUCH worse company than any I have ever dealt with. People on the forums here who complain about Russ and his work are ignoring the fact that he actually appears to love the game. That makes a huge difference to someone like me coming out of the "Wild East" culture of customer exploitation that is PWE.

But all that aside, I'm worried that Russ may not be aware of how factors two and three are going to impact the income from their "bread and butter", the battlemech sales. I spent a few hundred on this game last year, but nothing at Christmas with nothing planned for this time forward. I'll never need another battlemech or mech bay... and without those I don't foresee being interested enough to bother with things like paint jobs and cockpit items.

This is because of what I think of as the "Unfinished Rules Tax".

First off let me state that grinding is a bad idea for any game developer. Grinding doesn't give me something to do, it's just time I spend not playing the fun game I want to play, in the way I want to play it. During the eighties, game developers were all D&D nerds and we've been cursed with "leveling" ever since. A very small amount of it can give a (tiny) sense of accomplishment, but more than that is just boring. If the end-game is good then that's where people want to be, and MWO is all end game (not that I wouldn't mind single player missions and a story to start).

So now that we are going to have bad grinding attached to an interesting skill system that let's us customize, what's the problem? Just make the grinding less...

The problem arises from all the planned changes to the rules. Each of these will require respecs if you want to be competitive. With that costing real money for MC and some time to regrind the skill system, players will have to maintain their builds for the first time. No longer will you have an interesting game with diverse roles and combinations where you can play whatever you feel like in the moment. You'll have a few mechs that you've been able to keep competitive and everything else will require a price in money and boredom before you can play it again. So you will effectively be paying a tax every time the rules change if you wish to stay competitive.

In STO, when ship sales started to drop and players started to desert them, they thought they needed to squeeze harder on other things to make up revenue. What they should have done is not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. I had 17 toons in STO, and it wasn't nearly enough to cover all the tactically interesting build/ship/captain combinations even before they introduced their skill system. Yet even with a regular cash influx from a lifetime membership I couldn't be bothered to maintain one build, because of the "Unfinished Rules Tax'.

Of course the URT was most offensive when they were clearly not fixing bugs until enough people had respecced around the bugs to pay for it. But even if PGI avoids this odious behaviour, most people are going to start resenting new rules. Even rules changes that make the game "better" will meet resistance, or worse ... quietly cause a drop in mech sales. In fact they may already be experiencing this, since radical changes to the quirk system had me holding back on buying anything for the quirks.

Respeccs need to cost NOTHING. This is not a source of revenue to fund the game, but a revenue killer over time that is hard to find in the metrics.

Edited by Robinson Crusher, 20 January 2017 - 11:59 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Whoa.

Hell of a wall.

To summarize: you think respecs in the future squirks tree should be free, and because the plan is currently that they are not free, particularly in view of the presumed heavier grind to get squirks, is enough to make you stop paying but not playing.

Fair enough.

We all have our reasons for not wanting to or actually refusing to spend $ on this game. That's as reasonable as any others I've heard. Hope they address you concern. My 2 cents: I don't mind the grind, if I want a change I'll use cbills to buy a new mech and grind away and respec from the ground up.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Option 1 - spend £££
Option 2 - spend time
Option 3 - don't play

(Tired, very brief, should elaborate, maybe tomorrow)

Also, I should play STO again, I miss my Xindi Escort...

[Alan Davion]

Robinson Crusher, on 19 January 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

1) Bad experiences with other MMOs (Star Trek Online in particular)

Now while I am enough of a Battletech/Mechwarrior fan (going back to the eighties) that I'm hoping this post will get noticed for it's attempt to be constructive, I've been a hardcore trekker from 1966. So it was a big thing for me when the above factors drove me out of STO last February. Admittedly Perfect World Entertainment is a MUCH worse company than any I have ever dealt with. People on the forums here who complain about Russ and his work are ignoring the fact that he actually appears to love the game. That makes a huge difference to someone like me coming out of the "Wild East" culture of customer exploitation that is PWE.

I'm surprised you stuck with STO for that long.

I got into STO back when they first announced it, bought a $500 lifetime subscription and everything to get into CBT and help shape the game a little.

For all the good it did me.

I was with STO for... 2 years after that I think? Maybe 3? I don't remember exactly, but it was right before they sold out to PWE that I left the game. That had to be at least 3, maybe 4 years ago at this point, that's how much I despised the game for all the changes they were going to make.

Of course there were other factors. People lording exclusive items over everyone else for instance.

[Marius Evander]

Err whats EC ? Gxp?

The announcement was our current elited mech xp and cbills refunded from modules will be enough to cover maxing mech out in new skill tree?

Yes MC for respec isca terrible idea, unless they give us free respec everytime they adjust weapons/mech skills.
If thats the case MC to respec at other times is fine.

[Appogee]

I went from whale to non-paying-customer in January 2016.

Balance is worse now than it was then. Still no new maps. Matchmaking is crap because the failure to invest in the game caused so many people to leave. Customer communication is at an all time low. The apathy is palpable.

FP 4.1 has lots of promise, but the Clan/IS balance and the lack of group matchmaking is - yet again - turning it into a joyless exercise in farming or being farmed.

I refuse to spend more money with PGI until they make more effort. I won't even buy MW5 from them, when it eventually comes out. That's how how pissed I am.

[Vxheous]

Appogee, on 19 January 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

I went from whale to non-paying-customer in January 2016.

Balance is worse now than it was then. Still no new maps. Matchmaking is crap because the failure to invest in the game caused so many people to leave. Customer communication is at an all time low. The apathy is palpable.

FP 4.1 has lots of promise, but the Clan/IS balance and the lack of group matchmaking is - yet again - turning it into a joyless exercise in farming or being farmed.

I refuse to spend more money with PGI until they make more effort. I won't even buy MW5 from them, when it eventually comes out. That's how how pissed I am.

Polar Highlands and Grim Plexus is calling your BS about no new maps

[Dirus Nigh]

Ok, good for you.

[Dino Might]

I'm in a similar boat. Used to buy lots of mechs, now rarely even log on, and only do so with friends to enjoy their company. I see too many opportunities squandered, and probably rightly so, as it seems the majority of players want something other than what I want.

I see the new skill tree as a terrible waste. They should make all of the options sidegrades and not upgrades. The benefit of grinding out all the unlocks to choose from should be the ability to specialize your mech, not outright improve it. It is my same complaint about the current skill system. Now, if we're going to upset the applecart and redo the whole system, causing the inevitable player angst, why not make it a worthwhile change? Why just put in more of the same?

I see the balance passes as bandaids, where the worst offenders are rarely heavily affected. I see core game mechanic ideas that could add depth and tactical gameplay wither away in the suggestion forum while more space magic bandaids like ghost heat, energy draw, and the like are tested and affixed with apparently little thought to downstream consequences.

And I see CW continue to fail, again, while great ideas waste away in the suggestion forum, because "it's too difficult."
At the end of the day, why spend money on a game that isn't going to develop beyond what it already is? Lots of recent discussion on idea threads about "that's not what this game is." So...if this is all the game is and should ever be, then I'm not really inclined to spend more money on it, just like, after I play a single player game, I don't go spend more money to buy a new copy to play it again. I'll be content with the copy I already have.

ETA: I don't have an axe to grind, and really nothing against PGI or the players who like the game the way it is. That's fine. I wish it well. I'll play when I feel like it. And I'll look to see if something else interesting comes up. If there's ever a desire to substantially change this game, I am more than happy to dig up a bunch of old ideas.

Edited by Dino Might, 19 January 2017 - 06:49 PM.

[TLBFestus]

Alan Davion, on 19 January 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

I'm surprised you stuck with STO for that long.

I got into STO back when they first announced it, bought a $500 lifetime subscription and everything to get into CBT and help shape the game a little.

For all the good it did me.

I was with STO for... 2 years after that I think? Maybe 3? I don't remember exactly, but it was right before they sold out to PWE that I left the game. That had to be at least 3, maybe 4 years ago at this point, that's how much I despised the game for all the changes they were going to make.

Of course there were other factors. People lording exclusive items over everyone else for instance.

The sad part is, once they had your money they didn't care whether liked the game or not.

[Robinson Crusher]

Bud Crue, on 19 January 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Whoa.

Hell of a wall.

To summarize: you think respecs in the future squirks tree should be free, and because the plan is currently that they are not free, particularly in view of the presumed heavier grind to get squirks, is enough to make you stop paying but not playing.

LOL, ya sorry about the wall. I wish I knew how to add colour on these forums to break it up a bit... It was heartfelt though.

I probably should have emphasized the "Unfinished Rules Tax" thing more. The fact that the rules are always in flux means builds have to be maintained. Whether you do this through paying or playing, you will now only be able to support so many builds. This kills the very variety that the skill tree is supposed to improve, and I believe it will cost the game cash flow.

Cadoazreal, on 19 January 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Err whats EC ? Gxp?

The announcement was our current elited mech xp and cbills refunded from modules will be enough to cover maxing mech out in new skill tree?

Yes MC for respec isca terrible idea, unless they give us free respec everytime they adjust weapons/mech skills.
If thats the case MC to respec at other times is fine.

Oops! Brain fart. I was momentarily in the wrong game. I meant C-bills and MC, not "EC".

As for your comment, if they did give us respec tokens every time the rules changed, then I would be fine to happy about the new skill system. It's the concept that new builds will have a maintenance price that will hurt. Paying for half baked rules changes I don't want just to keep my play options open... nah.

Jay Leon Hart, on 19 January 2017 - 04:34 PM, said:

Option 1 - spend £££
Option 2 - spend time
Option 3 - don't play

(Tired, very brief, should elaborate, maybe tomorrow)

Also, I should play STO again, I miss my Xindi Escort...

LOL, I miss my Xindi Carrier but I'm not going back. Say hi from "PC" to the people in Omega Armada for me. I'll see them again when I can afford a new system that runs Star Citizen.

Edited by Robinson Crusher, 19 January 2017 - 07:50 PM.

[Appogee]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 19 January 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

Polar Highlands and Grim Plexus is calling your BS about no new maps

Polar was before January 2016.

But hey, as you apparently think one new map per year is enough, then please keep spending your money.

[VitriolicViolet]

yeah my financial contributions have declined heavily from when i started, im not sure but i think ive spent roughly 800-1000 on this since early 2014, but the last 6 months ive spent 100. im right at the point where im not sure if i will spend anymore, im waiting to see what happens to this game once battletech comes out. I was considering the bushwhacker but it will be useless if the game tanks in May

[Alan Davion]

TLBFestus, on 19 January 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

The sad part is, once they had your money they didn't care whether liked the game or not.

Oh I loved the game.

That is...

Right up until they sold out to the damned Chinese Gold Farmers and Lock Box Gamblers.

I played maybe for another month after that all changed, and the constant, and I mean CONSTANT SPAM OF "X PLAYER HAS OPENED A LOCK BOX AND RECEIVED Y SHIP", finally pushed me over the edge.

[Robinson Crusher]

Alan Davion, on 19 January 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

Oh I loved the game.

That is...

Right up until they sold out to the damned Chinese Gold Farmers and Lock Box Gamblers.

I played maybe for another month after that all changed, and the constant, and I mean CONSTANT SPAM OF "X PLAYER HAS OPENED A LOCK BOX AND RECEIVED Y SHIP", finally pushed me over the edge.

LOL, So you can imagine my horror when I first saw the supply cashes here!! I was ready to march down to the local RCMP division and report them for violations of the B.C. gaming code. But the things can be sold for C-Bills, so that's what I'll do instead. PWE should have done that in STO. I'm still not sure if it's technically legal though, given that the lottery chances aren't published or supervised.

Oh, and it was demonstrated that the lock box SPAM in STO would include false wins...

Edited by Robinson Crusher, 19 January 2017 - 08:13 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Appogee, on 19 January 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

Polar was before January 2016.

No it wasn't. I started playing January 4th, 2016. Polar was patched in on the 19th.

https://mwomercs.com...-1452-19jan2016

Edited by Dee Eight, 19 January 2017 - 10:22 PM.

[Vxheous]

Appogee, on 19 January 2017 - 07:53 PM, said:

Polar was before January 2016.

But hey, as you apparently think one new map per year is enough, then please keep spending your money.

It released in Jan 2016, so two maps. Still makes your statement false about "no new maps in 2016".

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 19 January 2017 - 10:31 PM.

[Besh]

In regards to SkillTree, and "grinding 'Mechs" :

What you call "Grind", I call "playing the Game" .

I found, with this attitude, any kind of progress comes very naturally, without any stressfull feeling of having to achieve anything, without the need to calculate xp/hr or maximize Cbills/match or anything of that BS, which imho turns "playing a Game" into a chore .

I just play the Game, Match after Match after Match . And the XP, Cbills keep pouring in .

In regards to spending: I really, really LIKE this Game . It is my priority Game for over a year now, and I can not see this changing anytime soon, especially not with the shakeups SkillTree and 3060+ Tech will bring . SO many things to play around and experiment with !

So whenever I want and can afford to, I do throw money at them . Me giving them money is not tied to THEM doing what I want them to do, or only implementing Changes I agree with . It is an effect of what they HAVE ALREADY DONE, and meaning "Hey, thanks for the Game, here, use this Money to keep it up, cos I really love playing it !" .

Edited by Besh, 20 January 2017 - 02:39 AM.

[El Bandito]

I told PGI that I will spend some cash if they buff the trio of suck--MGs, Flamers, and LBX cannons. Flamers and MGs are buffed to some usefulness, but LBX buff is still not here. Which means no money for PGI.

[Bud Crue]

El Bandito, on 20 January 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:

I told PGI that I will spend some cash if they buff the trio of suck--MGs, Flamers, and LBX cannons. Flamers and MGs are buffed to some usefulness, but LBX buff is still not here. Which means no money for PGI.

Hey now...remember when the gave the LBX the same shots per ton as the AC10? In PGI's perspective, that was probably a HUGE buff. Now pay up.