Way too complicated. As much as I hate gauss meta, gauss charge up was a dumb idea to begin with. PPC firing delay is just as dumb. Making things less fun should not be a factor in balance.
4
Balance Changes (Including 3060 Weapons)
Started by Reno Blade, Jan 20 2017 03:04 AM
Balance Gameplay Weapons
78 replies to this topic
#42
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- Overlord
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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:48 AM
How would you explain any of this to a novice player?
I KEEP THOWING DICE AT THE SCREEN BUT NOTHING IS HAPPENING!
I KEEP THOWING DICE AT THE SCREEN BUT NOTHING IS HAPPENING!
#43
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- The Blade
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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:54 AM
SmoothCriminal, on 17 March 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:
How would you explain any of this to a novice player?
I KEEP THOWING DICE AT THE SCREEN BUT NOTHING IS HAPPENING!
I KEEP THOWING DICE AT THE SCREEN BUT NOTHING IS HAPPENING!
What to explain exactly?
That your weapon will reload one after another like multiple ammo feeds blocking each other if you have too many at the same time?
You will see the weapon reloading in the weapon list. It's not harder than now.
#44
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- The Death Wish
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Posted 19 March 2017 - 04:59 PM
G1) Instead, keep internal structure as is. However, add internal HP based on the components added (instead of them having their own separate HP pool). Damage to internals destroy components in order highest HP to lowest (with some randomization).
G2) Decoupling maneuvering from engine rating takes care of this.
G3) Bad idea and wouldn't fit when you remember that you carry a nuclear fusion reactor in your torso.
G4) Not a terrible idea, but not a good one either. BattleMechs carry ammo feed systems and energy feed systems specifically to fully supply all of their weapons.
E1) *Increase
E2) Interesting thought but would be too much of a nerf to beams
E3) No. When considering the massive increase in heat (even more so then just ER), this would just break them. The whole point of heavy lasers is to get people to use fewer lasers as they have one that can really do damage at a reduced range and increased heat (like an AC20 compared to AC10s).
E4) No.
E5) Agreed. Light gets a 0 to .1 second charge, Snub and regular get .25 -.3, Heavy and Clan get a .5.
E6) No (reasons as G4).
E7) Possibly. Still 50/50 while writing this.
E8) No (G4)
M1) I can agree for MRMs, SRMs, and rockets, but not for LRMs. LRM systems are supposed to saturate an area with missile fire. When considering the spread increase coming soon, this would break larger LRMs even more.
M2) No (G4)
B1) Not a fan.
B2) Yes, or another option (see below)
B3) No. RACs are literally the equivalent of Gatling cannons. They use a short spin up to lay out constant streams of damage and then have to reset after you stop firing. They use massive amounts of ammo and create tremendous amounts of heat. Dont confuse them with a Chain Cannon, as that is the equivalent of the UAC.
B4) No. In fact, you should be able to charge and fire more than 2 (the current max). However, I think that the charging should be removed altogether while increasing the time to fire again by 50% (7.5 second reload).
B5) No *above*
B6) No *above*
B7) No (G4)
My suggestions;
G5) Global cooldown increases (15% - 100%, case by case)
B2) Give UACs half the cooldown as standard ACs. However, they have reduced jam chance the closer you get to the AC fire rate (reducing to 0% at the cooldown of the standard AC). Firing resets the cooldown, instead of making it like a "double tap" like current.
E9) Adding a percentage to heat gen based on how many lasers you are firing at once (small value like 1%-2% per laser). Wouldn't affect the builds that use a moderate amount of lasers that much, but the ones firing 10+ at once get massive penalties.
B8) Increase the jam time of UACs (and RACs) by quite a bit (50% or so).
G2) Decoupling maneuvering from engine rating takes care of this.
G3) Bad idea and wouldn't fit when you remember that you carry a nuclear fusion reactor in your torso.
G4) Not a terrible idea, but not a good one either. BattleMechs carry ammo feed systems and energy feed systems specifically to fully supply all of their weapons.
E1) *Increase
E2) Interesting thought but would be too much of a nerf to beams
E3) No. When considering the massive increase in heat (even more so then just ER), this would just break them. The whole point of heavy lasers is to get people to use fewer lasers as they have one that can really do damage at a reduced range and increased heat (like an AC20 compared to AC10s).
E4) No.
E5) Agreed. Light gets a 0 to .1 second charge, Snub and regular get .25 -.3, Heavy and Clan get a .5.
E6) No (reasons as G4).
E7) Possibly. Still 50/50 while writing this.
E8) No (G4)
M1) I can agree for MRMs, SRMs, and rockets, but not for LRMs. LRM systems are supposed to saturate an area with missile fire. When considering the spread increase coming soon, this would break larger LRMs even more.
M2) No (G4)
B1) Not a fan.
B2) Yes, or another option (see below)
B3) No. RACs are literally the equivalent of Gatling cannons. They use a short spin up to lay out constant streams of damage and then have to reset after you stop firing. They use massive amounts of ammo and create tremendous amounts of heat. Dont confuse them with a Chain Cannon, as that is the equivalent of the UAC.
B4) No. In fact, you should be able to charge and fire more than 2 (the current max). However, I think that the charging should be removed altogether while increasing the time to fire again by 50% (7.5 second reload).
B5) No *above*
B6) No *above*
B7) No (G4)
My suggestions;
G5) Global cooldown increases (15% - 100%, case by case)
B2) Give UACs half the cooldown as standard ACs. However, they have reduced jam chance the closer you get to the AC fire rate (reducing to 0% at the cooldown of the standard AC). Firing resets the cooldown, instead of making it like a "double tap" like current.
E9) Adding a percentage to heat gen based on how many lasers you are firing at once (small value like 1%-2% per laser). Wouldn't affect the builds that use a moderate amount of lasers that much, but the ones firing 10+ at once get massive penalties.
B8) Increase the jam time of UACs (and RACs) by quite a bit (50% or so).
Edited by Athom83, 19 March 2017 - 04:59 PM.
#45
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- The Wrench
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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:43 PM
Number of things I agree with, namely the reduction in torso twist speeds, and implementing energy draw that's focused around energy weapons and the Gauss Rifle. An energy draw implemented this way is actually lore-accurate, in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, at one point Natasha Kerensky mentions to Phelan Kell that he can't fire the Gauss Rifle and large lasers simultaneously on his Dire Wolf. In the end I think an energy draw system is the best way to balance the Gauss.
#47
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- The Blade
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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:51 AM
Athom83, on 19 March 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:
G1) Instead, keep internal structure as is. However, add internal HP based on the components added (instead of them having their own separate HP pool). Damage to internals destroy components in order highest HP to lowest (with some randomization).
G2) Decoupling maneuvering from engine rating takes care of this.
G3) Bad idea and wouldn't fit when you remember that you carry a nuclear fusion reactor in your torso.
G4) Not a terrible idea, but not a good one either. BattleMechs carry ammo feed systems and energy feed systems specifically to fully supply all of their weapons.
E1) *Increase
E2) Interesting thought but would be too much of a nerf to beams
E3) No. When considering the massive increase in heat (even more so then just ER), this would just break them. The whole point of heavy lasers is to get people to use fewer lasers as they have one that can really do damage at a reduced range and increased heat (like an AC20 compared to AC10s).
E4) No.
E5) Agreed. Light gets a 0 to .1 second charge, Snub and regular get .25 -.3, Heavy and Clan get a .5.
E6) No (reasons as G4).
E7) Possibly. Still 50/50 while writing this.
E8) No (G4)
M1) I can agree for MRMs, SRMs, and rockets, but not for LRMs. LRM systems are supposed to saturate an area with missile fire. When considering the spread increase coming soon, this would break larger LRMs even more.
M2) No (G4)
B1) Not a fan.
B2) Yes, or another option (see below)
B3) No. RACs are literally the equivalent of Gatling cannons. They use a short spin up to lay out constant streams of damage and then have to reset after you stop firing. They use massive amounts of ammo and create tremendous amounts of heat. Dont confuse them with a Chain Cannon, as that is the equivalent of the UAC.
B4) No. In fact, you should be able to charge and fire more than 2 (the current max). However, I think that the charging should be removed altogether while increasing the time to fire again by 50% (7.5 second reload).
B5) No *above*
B6) No *above*
B7) No (G4)
My suggestions;
G5) Global cooldown increases (15% - 100%, case by case)
B2) Give UACs half the cooldown as standard ACs. However, they have reduced jam chance the closer you get to the AC fire rate (reducing to 0% at the cooldown of the standard AC). Firing resets the cooldown, instead of making it like a "double tap" like current.
E9) Adding a percentage to heat gen based on how many lasers you are firing at once (small value like 1%-2% per laser). Wouldn't affect the builds that use a moderate amount of lasers that much, but the ones firing 10+ at once get massive penalties.
B8) Increase the jam time of UACs (and RACs) by quite a bit (50% or so).
G2) Decoupling maneuvering from engine rating takes care of this.
G3) Bad idea and wouldn't fit when you remember that you carry a nuclear fusion reactor in your torso.
G4) Not a terrible idea, but not a good one either. BattleMechs carry ammo feed systems and energy feed systems specifically to fully supply all of their weapons.
E1) *Increase
E2) Interesting thought but would be too much of a nerf to beams
E3) No. When considering the massive increase in heat (even more so then just ER), this would just break them. The whole point of heavy lasers is to get people to use fewer lasers as they have one that can really do damage at a reduced range and increased heat (like an AC20 compared to AC10s).
E4) No.
E5) Agreed. Light gets a 0 to .1 second charge, Snub and regular get .25 -.3, Heavy and Clan get a .5.
E6) No (reasons as G4).
E7) Possibly. Still 50/50 while writing this.
E8) No (G4)
M1) I can agree for MRMs, SRMs, and rockets, but not for LRMs. LRM systems are supposed to saturate an area with missile fire. When considering the spread increase coming soon, this would break larger LRMs even more.
M2) No (G4)
B1) Not a fan.
B2) Yes, or another option (see below)
B3) No. RACs are literally the equivalent of Gatling cannons. They use a short spin up to lay out constant streams of damage and then have to reset after you stop firing. They use massive amounts of ammo and create tremendous amounts of heat. Dont confuse them with a Chain Cannon, as that is the equivalent of the UAC.
B4) No. In fact, you should be able to charge and fire more than 2 (the current max). However, I think that the charging should be removed altogether while increasing the time to fire again by 50% (7.5 second reload).
B5) No *above*
B6) No *above*
B7) No (G4)
My suggestions;
G5) Global cooldown increases (15% - 100%, case by case)
B2) Give UACs half the cooldown as standard ACs. However, they have reduced jam chance the closer you get to the AC fire rate (reducing to 0% at the cooldown of the standard AC). Firing resets the cooldown, instead of making it like a "double tap" like current.
E9) Adding a percentage to heat gen based on how many lasers you are firing at once (small value like 1%-2% per laser). Wouldn't affect the builds that use a moderate amount of lasers that much, but the ones firing 10+ at once get massive penalties.
B8) Increase the jam time of UACs (and RACs) by quite a bit (50% or so).
Thanks for the detailed feedback!
The reason I used the G4, E8 + B7 + M2 is that with just longer cooldown, you will actually increase the benefit for boats and you will have more power creep.
Without Ghost heat, Enery Draw or "my" ammo-feed approach, there is nearly NO way to balance mechs with fewer weapons vs with more weapons.
While it seems bit complicated in the beginning, the ammo feed approach gives some "meaning" to reducing cooldowns overall and increasing cooldowns after firing lot of weapons.
That way single-fired the cooldown is lower than dual/tripple/quad-fired.
If that's too hard, we could just slap x% of cooldown after your alpha, but then you will have to wait for ALL weapons to cool down rather than having at least one weapon reload (as the others need to wait).
I'd prefere to have one weapon reloaded faster, at least.
#48
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- The Blazing
- 175 posts
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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:46 AM
TTK is fine if you don't face lock your target and give them a free alpha at your torso...
Being killed quickly does happen but it has NEVER been a big problem for players who know how to roll their armor or present themselves as a target for the shortest time possible.
You seem to forget one basic rule of war and the tech involved.... Whenever armor/defenses advance, weaponry follows suit shortly thereafter to compensate and then the armorers come up with something new... How many direct shells do you think a real life tank can take before its knocked out of commission?? The answer is "not very many" if we're talking about shells from another tank armed equally as well.
Would be nice though if little things like angle of impact would have an actual effect on damage taken/done... If you rotate your torso so that the incoming ballistic weapons strike at a very shallow angle they should bounce off and do severely reduced dmg compared to an impact from a steep angle.
Being killed quickly does happen but it has NEVER been a big problem for players who know how to roll their armor or present themselves as a target for the shortest time possible.
You seem to forget one basic rule of war and the tech involved.... Whenever armor/defenses advance, weaponry follows suit shortly thereafter to compensate and then the armorers come up with something new... How many direct shells do you think a real life tank can take before its knocked out of commission?? The answer is "not very many" if we're talking about shells from another tank armed equally as well.
Would be nice though if little things like angle of impact would have an actual effect on damage taken/done... If you rotate your torso so that the incoming ballistic weapons strike at a very shallow angle they should bounce off and do severely reduced dmg compared to an impact from a steep angle.
Edited by DANKnuggz, 21 March 2017 - 10:52 AM.
#49
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- The Blade
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- LocationGermany
Posted 21 March 2017 - 11:11 AM
DANKnuggz, on 21 March 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:
TTK is fine if you don't face lock your target and give them a free alpha at your torso...
Being killed quickly does happen but it has NEVER been a big problem for players who know how to roll their armor or present themselves as a target for the shortest time possible.
You seem to forget one basic rule of war and the tech involved.... Whenever armor/defenses advance, weaponry follows suit shortly thereafter to compensate and then the armorers come up with something new... How many direct shells do you think a real life tank can take before its knocked out of commission?? The answer is "not very many" if we're talking about shells from another tank armed equally as well.
Would be nice though if little things like angle of impact would have an actual effect on damage taken/done... If you rotate your torso so that the incoming ballistic weapons strike at a very shallow angle they should bounce off and do severely reduced dmg compared to an impact from a steep angle.
Being killed quickly does happen but it has NEVER been a big problem for players who know how to roll their armor or present themselves as a target for the shortest time possible.
You seem to forget one basic rule of war and the tech involved.... Whenever armor/defenses advance, weaponry follows suit shortly thereafter to compensate and then the armorers come up with something new... How many direct shells do you think a real life tank can take before its knocked out of commission?? The answer is "not very many" if we're talking about shells from another tank armed equally as well.
Would be nice though if little things like angle of impact would have an actual effect on damage taken/done... If you rotate your torso so that the incoming ballistic weapons strike at a very shallow angle they should bounce off and do severely reduced dmg compared to an impact from a steep angle.
Well, I think there are enough people who would like the TTK to be longer.
I at least am not a fan of playing WoT, CS, or CoD, because you are dead in a single volley.
Sure MWO can deal with few more volleys, BUT you always have to min max your build AND play top to have a chance.
You don't see many builds outside of the most efficient (means, boat as much as GH allows and alpha every time).
Even the classic PHawk needs to use 3x LLaser to be efficient. No 1x LL, 2x ML, 2x MG will come close to "more power", as you are multiple levels below min-maxed build option.
I am trying to find a good solution to reduce the gap or "worst build" and "best build" where the player skills and teamwork is more important over a "long" battle than the current "bring best build and instant-kill everything".
#50
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- The Blade
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Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:11 AM
Edit:
Alternative for E-8, M-2 and B-7:
Instead of the weapon waiting for the full cd of the previous weapon, it could be tested with X% of the cooldown first.
e.g. firing 4 PPCs (4s cooldown) would start cooldown on first PPC, then 25% (1 sec) later, the second cooldown starts and so on.
Basically just a 25% cd increase per additional weapon loading at the same time.
This would reduce boating, but at the same time still giving enough power to heavier mechs when adding more weapons than smaller mechs.
Example:
Alternative for E-8, M-2 and B-7:
Instead of the weapon waiting for the full cd of the previous weapon, it could be tested with X% of the cooldown first.
e.g. firing 4 PPCs (4s cooldown) would start cooldown on first PPC, then 25% (1 sec) later, the second cooldown starts and so on.
Basically just a 25% cd increase per additional weapon loading at the same time.
This would reduce boating, but at the same time still giving enough power to heavier mechs when adding more weapons than smaller mechs.
Example:
Spoiler
#51
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- The Blade
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Posted 07 May 2017 - 03:32 AM
Some additonal details.
Highlighted changes underlined:
PPC 4.0s cd, 0.8s autocharge -> velocity 1200 (unchanged)
erPPC 4.0s cd, 1.0s autocharge -> velocity 1300 (unchanged)
cerPPC 4.0s cd, 1.0s autocharge -> velocity 1300 (unchanged)
LPPC 3.5s cd, 0.5s autocharge -> velocity 1400
HPPC 4.5s cd, 1.5s autocharge -> velocity 1200
SNPPC 4.0s cd, 0.8s autocharge -> velocity 1100
Skill Tree can spec 25% reduction for PPC autocharge delay.
UAC5 -> velocity 1,150 (unchanged)
UAC10 -> velocity 950 (unchanged)
RAC2 -> velocity 2000 (same as AC2)
RAC5 -> velocity 1,150 (same as AC5)
Burst durations:
Base IS is 0.1s per bullet
Base Clan is 0.15s per bullet
Skill Tree can spec 20% reduced burst time duration.
Clan ACs have 50% more burst duration per bullet vs IS ACs (all classes use burst), but the same amount of shells and dmg/shell.
Gauss 2.5s cd, 2.0s charge, 2.0s charge hold -> velocity 2000 (unchanged) = total cd+charge 4.5s
Light Gauss 2.0s cd, 1.5s charge, 1.5s charge hold -> velocity 2200 = total cd+charge 3.5s
Heavy Gauss 3.0s cd, 2.5s charge, 2.5s charge hold -> velocity 1800 = total cd+charge 5.5s
Skill tree can spec 25% reduction in Gauss charge time.
Highlighted changes underlined:
PPC 4.0s cd, 0.8s autocharge -> velocity 1200 (unchanged)
erPPC 4.0s cd, 1.0s autocharge -> velocity 1300 (unchanged)
cerPPC 4.0s cd, 1.0s autocharge -> velocity 1300 (unchanged)
LPPC 3.5s cd, 0.5s autocharge -> velocity 1400
HPPC 4.5s cd, 1.5s autocharge -> velocity 1200
SNPPC 4.0s cd, 0.8s autocharge -> velocity 1100
Skill Tree can spec 25% reduction for PPC autocharge delay.
UAC5 -> velocity 1,150 (unchanged)
UAC10 -> velocity 950 (unchanged)
RAC2 -> velocity 2000 (same as AC2)
RAC5 -> velocity 1,150 (same as AC5)
Burst durations:
Base IS is 0.1s per bullet
Base Clan is 0.15s per bullet
Spoiler
Skill Tree can spec 20% reduced burst time duration.
Clan ACs have 50% more burst duration per bullet vs IS ACs (all classes use burst), but the same amount of shells and dmg/shell.
Gauss 2.5s cd, 2.0s charge, 2.0s charge hold -> velocity 2000 (unchanged) = total cd+charge 4.5s
Light Gauss 2.0s cd, 1.5s charge, 1.5s charge hold -> velocity 2200 = total cd+charge 3.5s
Heavy Gauss 3.0s cd, 2.5s charge, 2.5s charge hold -> velocity 1800 = total cd+charge 5.5s
Skill tree can spec 25% reduction in Gauss charge time.
Edited by Reno Blade, 07 May 2017 - 04:00 AM.
#52
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- The Blade
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Posted 09 May 2017 - 12:58 PM
Would you rather have 4s cd and 0.75s charge on the Gauss, or 2.5s cd and 2s charge (skillable to 1.5s) ?
And yes, I don't consider removing charge at all.
And yes, I don't consider removing charge at all.
#53
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- Bridesmaid
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Posted 09 May 2017 - 02:48 PM
I think the major problem with this game is mechs with stupid high alphas. it makes TTK lower because some mechs, especially clans can turn your little mistake or a look to survey the situation into a ticket to deadsville
#54
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- The Nightmare
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- LocationKansas City, MO
Posted 09 May 2017 - 02:53 PM
Gimpy117, on 09 May 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:
I think the major problem with this game is mechs with stupid high alphas. it makes TTK lower because some mechs, especially clans can turn your little mistake or a look to survey the situation into a ticket to deadsville
That kinda has to be the case otherwise this game boils down to just face-rushing for days. People need to understand that TTK has a direct impact on the viability of brawling/pushing/sniping in more coordinated play, the tougher mechs are, the more it swings heavily towards brawling.
Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 May 2017 - 02:54 PM.
#55
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- Bridesmaid
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Posted 09 May 2017 - 05:17 PM
A for effort but this game has too many design flaws that cant be fixed with stat changes. A perfect example is the new mech the Roughneck. This is the first mech designed by PGI and not surprisingly it has high hard points...
People have been beating this dead horse for so long it's turned into glue.
PGI's development philosophy is "Minimally Viable". this shows in the lack of location specific armor co-factors to correct for how mech geometry affects durability. They addressed this with quirks. but with many things with this game its all about how it feels to the people signing the checks. That also explains how collision got removed... BOB trolled Paul by running into him over and over never killing him.....
People have been beating this dead horse for so long it's turned into glue.
PGI's development philosophy is "Minimally Viable". this shows in the lack of location specific armor co-factors to correct for how mech geometry affects durability. They addressed this with quirks. but with many things with this game its all about how it feels to the people signing the checks. That also explains how collision got removed... BOB trolled Paul by running into him over and over never killing him.....
#56
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- FP Veteran - Beta 2
- 573 posts
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- LocationIn the Mechlab, adding more Double Heatsinks.
Posted 09 May 2017 - 06:16 PM
why would my guns that haw separate ammo feeds and bins reload 1 by 1 ? same goes for laseers which btw do not get charged unless you use the ones with the capacitors.
ppc capacitors? hurr I ahve 2 pcc's with capacitor for 30 damage, I am never going to cool down effectively again on my assault because I allways take 1h/ps when not having just fired the weapon.
most of the stuff there? yea it increases ttk by alot. but it also makes bringing more than the biggest gun that fits irrelevant because your not going to reload that one in time before you refire and have to reload the first one DPS whise.
I do not like most of the proposed changes tho some stuff like the 2 gauss charging preventing you from firing energy based weapons for soem time might be a good thing to do.
edit:
on ballistics going multi shot... that can be lore compliant HOWEVER atleast the KGC mount 1 shot ac20 and ac10's in theyr respective variants. adn some ac'S do stream fire BUT most that are used in the variants that we have do not. Racs and Chain cannons are there for stream fire on the IS side when it comes to that.
ppc capacitors? hurr I ahve 2 pcc's with capacitor for 30 damage, I am never going to cool down effectively again on my assault because I allways take 1h/ps when not having just fired the weapon.
most of the stuff there? yea it increases ttk by alot. but it also makes bringing more than the biggest gun that fits irrelevant because your not going to reload that one in time before you refire and have to reload the first one DPS whise.
I do not like most of the proposed changes tho some stuff like the 2 gauss charging preventing you from firing energy based weapons for soem time might be a good thing to do.
edit:
on ballistics going multi shot... that can be lore compliant HOWEVER atleast the KGC mount 1 shot ac20 and ac10's in theyr respective variants. adn some ac'S do stream fire BUT most that are used in the variants that we have do not. Racs and Chain cannons are there for stream fire on the IS side when it comes to that.
Edited by Kangarad, 09 May 2017 - 06:34 PM.
#57
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- The Blade
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Posted 10 May 2017 - 04:52 AM
Kangarad, on 09 May 2017 - 06:16 PM, said:
why would my guns that haw separate ammo feeds and bins reload 1 by 1 ? same goes for laseers which btw do not get charged unless you use the ones with the capacitors.
First: I saw the problem and reduced the "ammo wait" to 20-25%, as that should be enough to push the boat and mix closer together without making boating unusable.
second, lasers reload, so you can say they recharge by spending X energy.
If your engine can't produce enough power, would you rather not being able to fire the lasers? I think it would be better for gameplay to say the energy is recharged and stored on the cooldown.
That means your total amount of energy to reload any weapon is limited.
OFC it would make more sense to group all energy weapons together somehow, but this would make things MUCH more complicated and you would have Energy Draw again.
Quote
ppc capacitors? hurr I ahve 2 pcc's with capacitor for 30 damage, I am never going to cool down effectively again on my assault because I allways take 1h/ps when not having just fired the weapon.
Well, either disable the capacitors until you need them, or don't charge too many at once.
Heat per turn in TT was also 5 heat just for keeping it charged.
The whole idea here is to prevent power creep and give it enough of an risk/reward factor that you don't run full power permanently.
Quote
most of the stuff there? yea it increases ttk by alot. but it also makes bringing more than the biggest gun that fits irrelevant because your not going to reload that one in time before you refire and have to reload the first one DPS whise.
See first comment.
I put some example builds in the OP and I think that there would be a lot more mixed builds and low-weapon builds (such as only half the amount of guns on mediums vs the heavy/assault) which would benefit much more from the normal cooldown vs the boats with 25% cooldown reductions.
Quote
I do not like most of the proposed changes tho some stuff like the 2 gauss charging preventing you from firing energy based weapons for soem time might be a good thing to do.
edit:
on ballistics going multi shot... that can be lore compliant HOWEVER atleast the KGC mount 1 shot ac20 and ac10's in theyr respective variants. adn some ac'S do stream fire BUT most that are used in the variants that we have do not. Racs and Chain cannons are there for stream fire on the IS side when it comes to that.
edit:
on ballistics going multi shot... that can be lore compliant HOWEVER atleast the KGC mount 1 shot ac20 and ac10's in theyr respective variants. adn some ac'S do stream fire BUT most that are used in the variants that we have do not. Racs and Chain cannons are there for stream fire on the IS side when it comes to that.
I am willing to ignore some of the "lore" for gameplay, so I proposed burst fire ACs for all classes, just different cd/burst-durations.
If thats a good thing is up to gameplay to decide.
My goal was simple:
Spread out all weapon fire by increasing weapon burst/charge/volley durations and also by reducing the Alpha-strike spam (by reducing cd the more weapons you fire).
All that I think it does is give the players the choice between Alpha striking with longer waiting when boating, Alpha striking mixed builds and DPS-firing with mixed any builds.
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Posted 10 May 2017 - 06:10 AM
Reno Blade, on 10 May 2017 - 04:52 AM, said:
First: I saw the problem and reduced the "ammo wait" to 20-25%, as that should be enough to push the boat and mix closer together without making boating unusable.
second, lasers reload, so you can say they recharge by spending X energy.
If your engine can't produce enough power, would you rather not being able to fire the lasers? I think it would be better for gameplay to say the energy is recharged and stored on the cooldown.
That means your total amount of energy to reload any weapon is limited.
OFC it would make more sense to group all energy weapons together somehow, but this would make things MUCH more complicated and you would have Energy Draw again.
second, lasers reload, so you can say they recharge by spending X energy.
If your engine can't produce enough power, would you rather not being able to fire the lasers? I think it would be better for gameplay to say the energy is recharged and stored on the cooldown.
That means your total amount of energy to reload any weapon is limited.
OFC it would make more sense to group all energy weapons together somehow, but this would make things MUCH more complicated and you would have Energy Draw again.
True but lasers do not recharge. they cool down after firing to avoid cracking/damaging the focus lenses or melting the weapon entirely. Heavy lasers in lore use so much power to fire that they ecm the own mech and in some cases disable other systems due to them not getting enought energy from the reactor during firing period.
yes energy draw would be the closest thing appropriate to lore for energy based weapons aka gauss & laser/ppc
Reno Blade, on 10 May 2017 - 04:52 AM, said:
Well, either disable the capacitors until you need them, or don't charge too many at once.
Heat per turn in TT was also 5 heat just for keeping it charged.
The whole idea here is to prevent power creep and give it enough of an risk/reward factor that you don't run full power permanently.
then we would need another button to togle those too like ams/ Lams, probably even induvidual for each capacitor. if it would just change the ppc to gauss style charge then fire that would be better since it wont force people to toggle weapons all the time to have some cooling. a warhawk with 3 ppc capacitors could overheat just from walking... and thats with alot of cdhs.
Reno Blade, on 10 May 2017 - 04:52 AM, said:
See first comment.
I put some example builds in the OP and I think that there would be a lot more mixed builds and low-weapon builds (such as only half the amount of guns on mediums vs the heavy/assault) which would benefit much more from the normal cooldown vs the boats with 25% cooldown reductions.
all fine and dandy however the reload to firerate of weapons is still going to break it. do you just add weapons that are fired to the reload cycle? imagine 6xac2 firing faster than before because in chain fire that would reduce theyr reload speed by 50-75% or well any weapon that is boated that way.
lore whise for ballistics and missiles you can work in a jam chance on reload but there is no such thing as reloading lasers
and weapons are designed to reload asap all at the same time. then again there are some weapons that reload cassettes like they do ingame and then theres those that aree just limited by firerate to stop from overheating...
the Deathgiver ac20 are such a weapon. single shell and belt feed, designed to devastate until you run out of ammo these do not have any reload time and instead regulate the firerate to not melt of which for a KGC is not that limiting at all when you bring 2 of em and several tons of ammo.
Reno Blade, on 10 May 2017 - 04:52 AM, said:
I am willing to ignore some of the "lore" for gameplay, so I proposed burst fire ACs for all classes, just different cd/burst-durations.
If thats a good thing is up to gameplay to decide.
Reno Blade, on 10 May 2017 - 04:52 AM, said:
My goal was simple:
Spread out all weapon fire by increasing weapon burst/charge/volley durations and also by reducing the Alpha-strike spam (by reducing cd the more weapons you fire).
All that I think it does is give the players the choice between Alpha striking with longer waiting when boating, Alpha striking mixed builds and DPS-firing with mixed any builds.
Spread out all weapon fire by increasing weapon burst/charge/volley durations and also by reducing the Alpha-strike spam (by reducing cd the more weapons you fire).
All that I think it does is give the players the choice between Alpha striking with longer waiting when boating, Alpha striking mixed builds and DPS-firing with mixed any builds.
with your setup there is no alpha strike besides gauss + ppc which wil be an even more viable option when both weapons charge to fire + capacitors. 60 damage of sync alpha is allways better than ~40 damage in long duration lasers or spread all over ballistics OR even lrms which will be losing so much potential damage that 500 shots per 1t of ammo would still be not enougth to even come out at 100 damage average due to Lams/ams/ecm/cover/stealtharmour/spread and flight time
theres only 2 viable options left on the field. gauss ppc for pinpoint damage and everything else for spread dps, guess what everyone would chose?
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Posted 10 May 2017 - 09:37 AM
Kangarad, on 10 May 2017 - 06:10 AM, said:
True but lasers do not recharge. they cool down after firing to avoid cracking/damaging the focus lenses or melting the weapon entirely. Heavy lasers in lore use so much power to fire that they ecm the own mech and in some cases disable other systems due to them not getting enought energy from the reactor during firing period.
yes energy draw would be the closest thing appropriate to lore for energy based weapons aka gauss & laser/ppc
yes energy draw would be the closest thing appropriate to lore for energy based weapons aka gauss & laser/ppc
Ok, maybe we could say that too many lasers would need to cool longer if fired together instead of reloading longer because of the energy.
Quote
then we would need another button to togle those too like ams/ Lams, probably even induvidual for each capacitor. if it would just change the ppc to gauss style charge then fire that would be better since it wont force people to toggle weapons all the time to have some cooling. a warhawk with 3 ppc capacitors could overheat just from walking... and thats with alot of cdhs.
I think I would be ok with having to switch Capacitors per weapon group.
e.g. having an Awesome with 3 PPCs + Caps I could select weapon groups:
1 - PPC#1
2 - PPC#2 and #3
3 - Cap#1
4 - Cap#2 and #3
But I like to have more control over simple 1/2 button build
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all fine and dandy however the reload to firerate of weapons is still going to break it. do you just add weapons that are fired to the reload cycle? imagine 6xac2 firing faster than before because in chain fire that would reduce theyr reload speed by 50-75% or well any weapon that is boated that way.
Oh, maybe i miss-worded it.
I mean that instead of the full 100% cooldown wait for the weapon, you only get extra 25% cooldown before next weapon starts charging/reloading.
That way your AC2 boat could only fire 2 AC2s at a time without penalty and 6x AC2 would have longer cooldowns because of the extra %.
Reposting from OP:
Alternative for E-8, M-2 and B-7:
Instead of the weapon waiting for the full cd of the previous weapon, it could be tested with 25-50% of the cooldown first.
e.g. firing 4 PPCs (4s cooldown) would start cooldown on first PPC, then 25% (1 sec) later, the second cooldown starts and so on.
Basically just a 25% cd increase per additional weapon loading at the same time.
This would reduce boating, but at the same time still giving enough power to heavier mechs when adding more weapons than smaller mechs.
Spoiler
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lore whise for ballistics and missiles you can work in a jam chance on reload but there is no such thing as reloading lasers
and weapons are designed to reload asap all at the same time. then again there are some weapons that reload cassettes like they do ingame and then theres those that aree just limited by firerate to stop from overheating...
the Deathgiver ac20 are such a weapon. single shell and belt feed, designed to devastate until you run out of ammo these do not have any reload time and instead regulate the firerate to not melt of which for a KGC is not that limiting at all when you bring 2 of em and several tons of ammo.
well it will certainly make lights a ***** to kill especialy when combined with streaming missiles and long duration lasers... locusts will live forever.
I think the lights will have a lot of problems killing stuff also.
Less agile (torso twist nerf), lasers all have more burn time and SRMs also fire in streams (even if they are shorter than LRMs).
And it's part of the idea that you don't just always bring bigger=better to the field.
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with your setup there is no alpha strike besides gauss + ppc which wil be an even more viable option when both weapons charge to fire + capacitors. 60 damage of sync alpha is allways better than ~40 damage in long duration lasers or spread all over ballistics OR even lrms which will be losing so much potential damage that 500 shots per 1t of ammo would still be not enougth to even come out at 100 damage average due to Lams/ams/ecm/cover/stealtharmour/spread and flight time
theres only 2 viable options left on the field. gauss ppc for pinpoint damage and everything else for spread dps, guess what everyone would chose?
theres only 2 viable options left on the field. gauss ppc for pinpoint damage and everything else for spread dps, guess what everyone would chose?
I would disagree with Gauss/Peeps, as this would not be possible to fire together.
It seems I did not wrote it correctly when saying all energy cooldown is paused while Gauss is charging and only one Gauss can charge at a time.
- E-6) Only 2x PPCs can be fired/charged at a time
- B-4) Only 1x Gauss can be charged at a time
- B-5) When charging a Gauss, all energy weapon reloading is paused
That would mean you will always have some kind of delay because of PPC auto-charge mechanic added.
Edited by Reno Blade, 10 May 2017 - 09:37 AM.
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Posted 19 May 2017 - 03:12 PM
Some of the listed changes are now here with the skill tree (e.g. less agility), but there are so much more to tweak to increase the battle time.
So to sum up the ideas and incorporate some improvements of the skill tree:
Global + skill tree:
- Further increase cooldowns a bit, but increase weapon skill tree by additional 20-30 points to get 5-10% more stats if you go really deep.
- Add more weapon specific skills (e.g. laser duration + AC/Missile volley duration + Gauss Charge)
- Increase armor/structure overall by 50-100% and increase skill nodes by additional 10-15 points to get additional 10-20% armor/structure.
- further separate the targeting ranges and speeds by weight and increase skill nodes for both by additional ~10 points for higher effects (e.g. assaults long range targeting around 500-600 while lights can target around 800-1000) + 15-25% skill effect
Energy:
- reduce Laser cooldown, but also reduce damge and increase beam time, so you would need more face time
- laser will be the quick, but low damage weapon to fill gaps where the larger weapons need to cool down
- give all PPCs higher total damage, but only with increased splash (e.g. PPC: 6+4+4, or cERPPC 8+6+6) and reduced velocity and longer cooldown
PPCs:
Laser:
Ballistics:
- longer cooldown, few more bullets, more dakka, so you would need to have more face time for IS also, but also have some time in between you want to use other weapons.
AC classes
Base IS is 0.1s per bullet
Base Clan is 0.15s per bullet
Gauss classes
Skill tree can give 20% faster charge speed and 20% longer charge hold
Missiles:
- longer cooldown for all missiles
- Stream-fire every missile
- Missile velocity increased for LRM/MRM + can skill velocity and volley duration
- Streak/LRM lock mechanic changed to aquire 5 target components (e.g. 2x LT, 1x CT, 1x RT, 1x RL) for each 5 missiles.
Missile stats:
IS LRM 0.3s volley duration per 5 missiles
Clan LRM 0.75s volley duration per 5 missiles
MRM 0.25s volley duration per 5 missiles
ATM 0.2s volley duration per 3 missiles
SRM/SSRM 0.15s volley duration per 2 missiles
So to sum up the ideas and incorporate some improvements of the skill tree:
Global + skill tree:
- Further increase cooldowns a bit, but increase weapon skill tree by additional 20-30 points to get 5-10% more stats if you go really deep.
- Add more weapon specific skills (e.g. laser duration + AC/Missile volley duration + Gauss Charge)
- Increase armor/structure overall by 50-100% and increase skill nodes by additional 10-15 points to get additional 10-20% armor/structure.
- further separate the targeting ranges and speeds by weight and increase skill nodes for both by additional ~10 points for higher effects (e.g. assaults long range targeting around 500-600 while lights can target around 800-1000) + 15-25% skill effect
Energy:
- reduce Laser cooldown, but also reduce damge and increase beam time, so you would need more face time
- laser will be the quick, but low damage weapon to fill gaps where the larger weapons need to cool down
- give all PPCs higher total damage, but only with increased splash (e.g. PPC: 6+4+4, or cERPPC 8+6+6) and reduced velocity and longer cooldown
PPCs:
Spoiler
Laser:
Spoiler
Ballistics:
- longer cooldown, few more bullets, more dakka, so you would need to have more face time for IS also, but also have some time in between you want to use other weapons.
AC classes
Base IS is 0.1s per bullet
Base Clan is 0.15s per bullet
Spoiler
Gauss classes
Skill tree can give 20% faster charge speed and 20% longer charge hold
Spoiler
Missiles:
- longer cooldown for all missiles
- Stream-fire every missile
- Missile velocity increased for LRM/MRM + can skill velocity and volley duration
- Streak/LRM lock mechanic changed to aquire 5 target components (e.g. 2x LT, 1x CT, 1x RT, 1x RL) for each 5 missiles.
Missile stats:
IS LRM 0.3s volley duration per 5 missiles
Clan LRM 0.75s volley duration per 5 missiles
MRM 0.25s volley duration per 5 missiles
ATM 0.2s volley duration per 3 missiles
SRM/SSRM 0.15s volley duration per 2 missiles
Spoiler
Edited by Reno Blade, 31 May 2017 - 09:57 AM.
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