426 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Smell Da Glove, on 21 January 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

First i would like to thank you for replying with some detail. I can dyart to see where youbare coming from.

However,

Why is it that isXL change to be like the clan and still be alive and not the other way and clan mechs die which is better balance? Especially if you are trying to help balance STD engines??


if balance is what you are really looking for then why wouod you have their penalty be more significant. Isn't the argument that the clans should have a technological advantage inherently based in lore? Os it worth holding onto if it hurts balance by penalizing one side more?

i actually like some of yoir suggestions for difference between STD and XL engines and think they would be worth exploring however, didnt one of your earlier argument basicallly justify itself by having at the very least a soft foundation on lore?





I'm gonna argue that this is actually what has made this game a twitch FPS instead of a simulator like mechwarrior originally was and that balancing things is easier as a simulator then a FPS. If i had made the game, arm mounted weapons would be able to converge pretty closly but not exactly to the same point. Torso mounted weapons would shoot pretty much straight out from their hardpoint mounts. They would converge by no more then 10 or 15 degrees at best. The aiming reticle would still have the little arm circle but now there would be 2. The torse reticle would be a decent sized circle with a few "X" placed around that circle showing where the various torso mounted weapons are firing.

Something like this?
Lock reducing cone:



Or lock moving the arms to the center (with bobbing on movement):




I don't think we ever get convergence changes.
So the only other way to spread damage is to reduce volley size (e.g. by limiting them with Ghost heat or other means)

I'm still putting out some ideas every now and then, but these are mostly unwelcome, because they nerf this twitch-shooter gameplay too much.
https://mwomercs.com...g-3060-weapons/

Maybe next time, I will try to get some more ideas from Elite Dangerous or other simulator games to make a better proposal.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Righter8, on 21 January 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'll lay out a plan for "fair and equal" design:
*snip*

Ah. another one of those.

Please educate yourself on the difference between balance and homogeneity.

kthxbai

[Kmieciu]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 21 January 2017 - 05:33 PM, said:

Basically... coupled with the fact that Engine Crits do NOT exist just like Gyros do NOT exist. So cXL engines do not die as a result of "3 Engine Crits" yet is XL engines do. That is unfair

Actually you are incorrect. Engine does receive critical hits, same as gyro, arm actuators, cockpit sensors and life suport.
The destruction of those components has no effect in game but they are usefull for crti padding. Thats why the head and CT are the safest components to store ammo in.

https://www.reddit.c...arrior/d6y6hgh/

[Falconer Cyrus]

Kmieciu, on 22 January 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

Thats why the head and CT are the safest components to store ammo in.

Yep, until the ammo explosion due to critical hit to CT from back 8)

[TAKTCOM]

Mcgral18, on 20 January 2017 - 06:25 PM, said:

I'm all for 100% boost
Double structure (or structure=armour) for STD engines, along the Torso

I realy like this idea

Smell Da Glove, on 21 January 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

Why is it that isXL change to be like the clan and still be alive and not the other way and clan mechs die which is better balance? Especially if you are trying to help balance STD engines??

+1, STD need some love. isXL=clXL is dully, it's makes LFE unnecessary, for example.

[Sucy Manbavaran]

Each patch there are ton of whinners ...

Spoiler

Edited by Sucy Manbavaran, 22 January 2017 - 04:45 AM.

[ingramli]

Sucy Manbavaran, on 22 January 2017 - 04:42 AM, said:

Each patch there are ton of whinners ...

Spoiler

Because game maker is more interested about making more profit rather than making the game more "balanced" for better playing experience, i would not blame PGI for this, because most (if not all) online game are sort of the same thing in this regard.

[Sucy Manbavaran]

ingramli, on 22 January 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

Because game maker is more interested about making more profit rather than making the game more "balanced" for better playing experience, i would not blame PGI for this, because most (if not all) online game are sort of the same thing in this regard.

Damn true, it's the same pb everywhere ... Then "we" must wait 3060 tech, see what they put in the game and play with it.
I guess 90% of the players can't understand that ><

[Widowmaker1981]

Falconer Cyrus, on 22 January 2017 - 03:14 AM, said:

Yep, until the ammo explosion due to critical hit to CT from back 8)

If you let someone back core you before you even used the first two tons of ammo in your mech (CT is used first) then you screwed that game up badly anyway and were gonna do crap, so not worth considering. Plus the chance of it happening is low - lets say its a PPC/AC10/Gauss/AC20 that hit you since those are the best crit weapons, and assume it crit. It then has a 1/4 chance of hitting one of the ammo, and from there a 1/10 chance that it explodes. So even if you let someone hit you in the back early enough to not have used the ammo, and they get a lucky crit, you STILL only have a 1/40 chance of it causing an ammo explosion. Since you build mechs for what happens most of the time, its not worth considering.

[Bishop Six]

Ok 2 ways which could work for me.

1.)
Like MW 4 give IS the ability to use Clan-Weapons and vice versa. Introduce new weapons technology like X-Pulse-Laser and so on. Give everyone freedom what they want to put in their chassis. There is no logical reason why IS isnt able to grab them by their...no wait to grab Clanner weapons from battlefield after victory. Then you can let the "engine-gate" what it is.

2.)
If People talking about lore, Battletech rules and such things, then we should make it 100 %:
Get rid of the quirks and make 12 IS mechs fighting 10 Clanners like it should be in the stories/immersion.
Then you have OP-Clanners invading IS and numbers of IS-pilots with low tech to defend. But IS have more numbers, thats just logical because the IS nations have much more population.

But PGI did a really bad mix between these 2 points.

Either the one way or the other, but not this " i want to sell more products to the customers so i change every values before every release so everthing is ****** up again"

edit: spelling and the information that i just ordered the Bushwacker. So i am an idiot or still in love...

Edited by Bishop Six, 22 January 2017 - 05:48 AM.

[Tarriss Halcyon]

I so rarely clock-in to work in these salt-mines; but this engine debate is one that catches my eye.
I may be a Clan loyalist; but when I'm gaming, I mix between IS and Clan 'mechs; and I mostly pug. Now; this whole "you must compare isXL to cXL" arguement is silly; and should be put to rest. Yes, there is a technological disparity. We get that. But; in all honesty, as many players have said, there should be a reason to run a STD engine. But; I wouldn't say that giving the STD more durability is the way to do it. What I DO think would work just happens to be one of the things people love the XL for. Speed.

Now; hear me out. I run STD engines on a lot of my mechs; since my stable is getting close to 210; and swells frequently; but my RNG-based mech choice system for PUGs means that all mechs must be ready to use. Now, in the case of an XL engine; it's called "extra-light" for a reason. That's what it is. English semantics - light implies that it can't take a hit as well as heavy, but it weighs less. That's how they work in-game. Now; the advantage of the cXL is that it's compact; so you don't insta-die on losing a side torso. At the same time, though; what people seem to forget is that while the mech's average speed increases, the XL engine is also fragile. What's the first thing that an engineer does if they're designing something large and cumbersome that has to move fluidly? They articulate them. And in this case, that adds more moving parts to something already complex. Add the structure boosts to the STD; that'd make more people use them... but as a plot twist; make the engines also more nimble. Ground speed is the same, but the STD is also faster to torso twist and reorient itself because of the centralized weight. Give the mechs a slight maneuverability bonus with STD engines, so they turn faster because the gyro doesn't have to compensate for as much weight distribution.

What's that? Some of the worst Clan omnimechs run STD engines? *Gasp* That might just make them... VIABLE. And we all know the Inner Sphere doesn't want the Clans to get MORE viable mechs. My most lethal mech overall in PUG queue is an 2xLPL; SRM20 Stalker 3F that runs a standard engine. Even if it's just a stick and no longer capable of fighting, I know how to position myself to help shield teammates; and the added survival chance of the standard engine means that I don't have to be as afraid of being ripped to shreds by targets either too far to shoot or too fast to aim at with my 200+ ping on all servers.

Also; people? I don't understand why you're so up-in-arms about the quirk changes anyway. If you want your mech to have the added tank stats; then after the skill tree changes, put experience into defensive skills. We don't know if PGI is going to do a full, clean-slate wipe of Quirks to suit; or if they're going to just be monitoring and reevaluating as we progress. You've got more incentive to quirk out your mechs the way you want them to be. Not these standardized buffs that everything gets... I mean, Pinpoint has never done anything; for crying out loud.

EDIT: Spelling errors had to go bye-bye for my own OCD.

Edited by Tarriss Halcyon, 22 January 2017 - 05:54 AM.

[tokumboh]

TBH I would be happy with the changes they make if they could show the data. The rational for many of the changes seems random. For example the Warhammer is the meta not because of it quirks (look at a Cataphract 0XP for example ) but because opf high mounts and reasonably high arms. You are not going to be able to equalise the geometry differences.

I suppose the only advantage of changing everything every quarter is that it means that at somepoint the orion will become the meta.

So PGI is it possible to see the data behind the decisions.

[MovinTarget]

tokumboh, on 22 January 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

I suppose the only advantage of changing everything every quarter is that it means that at somepoint the orion will become the meta.
.

In an related note, the body of an mwo player was found today, apparent cause of death was asphyxiation due to holding his breath too long....

[Chaotee]

I generally don't feel it fair for me to backseat drive, which is why I rarely comment on patch notes. I was amused this time though, so I had to post one.
You do realize that in reading the explanation for the change to the Summoner mech it's fair to sum it up as such "Nobody likes this mech. So we've decided to deliberately make it worse". I know you guys have a lot on your plate, but how many hours of deep thought did that decision take?

Edited by Chaotee, 22 January 2017 - 12:13 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Kmieciu, on 22 January 2017 - 02:09 AM, said:

Actually you are incorrect. Engine does receive critical hits, same as gyro, arm actuators, cockpit sensors and life suport.
The destruction of those components has no effect in game but they are usefull for crti padding. Thats why the head and CT are the safest components to store ammo in.

https://www.reddit.c...arrior/d6y6hgh/

so NO ENGINE CRITS EXIST IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!! What kind of point are you trying to make here??? If the mech is not shutdown/destroyed as a result of recieving 3 Engine Crits then it is immaterial, since that is the entire point of what makes isXL vs cXL ST loss results bullsh1t .

[MovinTarget]

As a merc, i find it amusing that both side whine about what happens to them and/or what the other side has that they do not.

My theory is that PGI actually feels it has achieved balance when both sides are approximately equal in rage and vitriol. That's the numbers they are monitoring...

S-Cat not being complained about by clanners? Must be overperforming!

No one is saying whammers suck and offer another mech as better? Overperforming, plz nerf...

What would happen we all got really quiet and stopped raging? What would they do?

WHAT WOULD THEY DO????


...just a theory...

[SuperFunkTron]

Chaotee, on 22 January 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

I generally don't feel it fair for me to backseat drive, which is why I rarely comment on patch notes. I was amused this time though, so I had to post one.
You do realize that in reading the explanation for the change to the Summoner mech it's fair to sum it up as such "Nobody likes this mech. So we've decided to deliberately make it worse". I know you guys have a lot on your plate, but how many hours of deep thought did that decision take?

Interesting that you read it like that. I've assumed its low popularity is because of its inability to boat weapons and thus requires more thinking and a little planning. Despite not having the same number of hardpoints as other mechs, I've had some of my best games with the 3-5 weaposn these mechs hold.

[Kmieciu]

Falconer Cyrus, on 22 January 2017 - 03:14 AM, said:

Yep, until the ammo explosion due to critical hit to CT from back 8)

The chance of that actually happening is minimal: You have to get hit with a weapon that deals 10+ pinpoint damage (PPC, AC10, Gauss, AC20), then the chance of a crit is 42% (the chance of 1, 2 or 3), the chance of the ammo in CT getting hit is 16% (and even less if you have additional DHS in the engine),and the chance of ammo explosion is 10%.
Therefore the chance of your CT ammo exploding after a PPC hit is 0,67%

According to LiSong Mechlab, if you put ammo in the CT of an Atlas, there is a 99,22% chance that you will die before loosing that ammo.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 22 January 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

so NO ENGINE CRITS EXIST IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!! What kind of point are you trying to make here??? If the mech is not shutdown/destroyed as a result of recieving 3 Engine Crits then it is immaterial, since that is the entire point of what makes isXL vs cXL ST loss results bullsh1t .

There's a big difference between NO ENGINE CRITS and ENGINE DESTRUCTION HAS NO EFFECT.
The engine is the greatest crit buffer in the game.

Edited by Kmieciu, 23 January 2017 - 01:06 AM.

[Arkhangel]

tokumboh, on 22 January 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

TBH I would be happy with the changes they make if they could show the data. The rational for many of the changes seems random. For example the Warhammer is the meta not because of it quirks (look at a Cataphract 0XP for example ) but because opf high mounts and reasonably high arms. You are not going to be able to equalise the geometry differences.

I suppose the only advantage of changing everything every quarter is that it means that at somepoint the orion will become the meta.

So PGI is it possible to see the data behind the decisions.

In fairness, the mounts on the Orion are why it'll never be seen as "meta" but anyone who's ever run into someone who's taken the time to really get to know and learn that chassis should know not to underestimate the thing. hell, the fact a lot of mechs DON'T have easy-aim hardpoints can actually give pilots who've taken the time to..well.. for lack of a better word, bond with the chassis an advantage, as opponents either have no idea how to counter said mech (since they've hardly ever fought it), and surprise the ones that have in the past by being far more accurate and possibly devastating than they're used to.

People can whine, moan and complain about any mech all day, but at the end of the day, it's the pilots in the chairs who make a build work. "meta" just shows up because copycats think the mech and loadout are what really matters.

EMP, 228, and EON didn't get to the World finals due to what they piloted, they got there for HOW they piloted. Teamwork, Marksmanship, Judicious use of cover.

honestly, Metabuild guys would get a lot less kills if other people stopped getting instantly intimidated by the mech itself. I've bullrushed dozens of Meta-built Dires, Kodiaks, etc in my Yen-Lo, and it actually tends to surprise the hell out of them about 80% of the time, and usually even tends to screw their aim up, thus helping my survivability, and given my team a chance to nail them while i take fire.

That and also.. Metabuilds usually have some pretty glaring weaknesses, which, given how commonly they tend to show up, usually become pretty well known pretty fast, like, say, the fact that Streak Crows with just SSRMs actually kinda suck at doing appreciable damage to IS mediums other than the Cicada, or the fact the Kodiak, like all Clan Assaults has a pretty borked torso turn, meaning an attack from both sides and/or the rear generally means the poor sap can't even retaliate before it's maimed or destroyed, which is why it's pretty rare to see a Kodiak alone. Granted, an assault alone isn't a good idea anyways, but a fair amount of them would at least stand an appreciable chance of tearing one of their attackers a new one in that situation just by virtue of the fact they'd actually be able to get a firing arc on on them.

Edited by Arkhangel, 23 January 2017 - 04:47 AM.

[SilentFenris]

InnerSphereNews, on 20 January 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Second, we want to stress that we are not solely looking at Engine balance as only being a matter of IS XL versus Clan XL, but between all Engine options available to the player. This includes Standard Engines and smaller Engine sizes of both types. There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines, but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance.

We look forward to your feedback on these changes, but we encourage you to keep in mind that this should not be evaluated strictly as an XL Engine issue, but an overall balance question between Engines of all types.

As mentioned in the previous <a href="https://mwomercs.com/news/2017/01/1693-roadmap-for-january-february-beyond"><u>Roadmap</u></a>, we would also like to reiterate that we have identified some larger balance points that we will be approaching after the release of the new Skill system in February.

Different can only be equal in theory, but you can give advantages that make each one a better performer under certain conditions.

The real test of having different but balanced XL engines would be:
1) break Battltech game lore (which PGI has done on other occasions) and give both Clan and I.S. House mechs access to both engine types. I don't think any pilot except lore buffs would not take the Clan XL in their mech currently.
2) apply advantages (like structure and cooling quirks) to each engine type until Clanners start ripping Clan XLs out of their IIC mechs and I.S. pilots choose the I.S. XL over the Clan.
3) Dial the advantages back half a step from the point the meta playerbase converted from Clan XLS to I.S. tech.

This process would at leasr get the XL engines close to balanced. It might help Standard engines to get more love too.

I personally do not believe that 1 I.S. mech should be equal to 1 Clan mech , but if different but equal is PGIs course this is one way to accomplish it.