426 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

Zergling, on 01 February 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

If you're doing badly with Clan mechs, then the problem is between chair and keyboard.

Ouch, shots fired...

[Zergling]

MovinTarget, on 01 February 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Ouch, shots fired...

Well, looking at his stats, it is definitely a PBKAC situation. For a more factual argument, here's this IS vs Clan laser vomit comparison I just spent an hour writing up:



If you want to talk about IS Laser vomit with Grasshoppers, then you're talking about the 5P running 5x Large Lasers.
That variant has -15% Laser Duration and +10% Energy Range.

IS Large Laser has 9 damage, 7 heat, 3.25 second cooldown, 1.00 second duration, 450 meter range.
With the GHR-5P's quirks, that is 0.85 second duration and 495 meter range.

Now, because of ghost heat, the GHR-5P cannot fire all 5 Large Lasers at once (unless it wants a massive heat spike): it has to fire 3, then wait half a second before firing the other 2.
That increases the total 'face time' of a salvo from 0.85 seconds to 1.35 seconds, which will inflict 45 damage at the cost of 35 heat (1.29 damage per heat).

Total DPS per Large Laser is 2.12 normally, but due to reduced duration it is 2.20, for a total of 10.98 DPS and 8.54 HPS.


Now compare that to Clan Laser vomit builds, like 2x Large Pulse and 3x ER Medium.

Clan Large Pulse has 13 damage, 10 heat, 3.25 second cooldown, 1.12 second duration, 600 meter range.
Clan ER Medium has 7 damage, 6 heat, 3.00 second cooldown, 1.15 second duration, 405 meter range.

There are no ghost heat penalties, so the Clan mech can fire all of thoe guns at once, for a total face time of 1.15 seconds, which will inflict 47 damage at a cost of 38 heat (1.24 damage per heat).

Total DPS is 11.01, with 8.91 HPS.


Going further, the Grasshopper's 5x Large Lasers weigh 25 tons, while the Clan 2x Large Pulse and 3x ER Medium only weigh 15 tons, so the Clan mech can install another 10 double heat sinks over the Grasshopper.
At 0.15 heat dissipation per double heat sink, that is 1.50 HPS less, so the Clan mech is effecitvely only running at 7.41 HPS in a direct comparison, versus the Grasshopper with 8.54 HPS.

Result: the Grasshopper is at a disadvantage; it has to sacrifice speed to gain the same heat efficiency as the clan mech.


Actual comparison: GHR-5P with 330 standard engine, 5x Large Laser, 10 double heat sinks, for 82.1 kph speed.
Versus: Hellbringer with 2x Large Pulse, 3x ER Medium, 23 double heat sinks, for 87.1 kph speed.

Result? The Grasshopper is as fast as it can be for that weapons build while still using a standard engine, and doesn't come close to the Hellbringer in heat efficiency, lowering its effective DPS drastically.

If the Grasshopper uses an XL engine, it can increase speed slightly (although still not as fast as the Hellbringer) and be much more heat efficient... but then it still isn't as heat efficient as the Hellbringer, and is also much less durable to due to IS XL engine.

So if the Grasshopper wants decent heat efficiency (but still worse than Hellbringer) without being far less durable than the Hellbringer, it needs to lose a heap of speed, like this build with 285 standard, 70.9 kph and 17 double heat sinks.


Then there's sustained DPS: with each Large Laser firing every 4.1 seconds, the Grasshopper has 8.54 HPS, while with 17 double heat sinks (with 10 engine) it has 3.05 heat dissipation per second, for a 35.73% heat efficiency.
So while the Grasshopper has 10.98 maximum DPS, its sustained DPS is 3.92.

As for the Hellbringer, it has 8.91 HPS with 23 double heat sinks (10 engine) for 3.95 heat dissipation per second, for 44.31% heat efficiency.
So while the Hellbringer has 11.01 maximum DPS, its sustained DPS is 4.88.


So Grasshopper advantages:
Structure quirks make it slightly more durable (about 17% more damage to kill)
Slightly better range


Hellbringer advantages:
24.5% greater sustained DPS
15% less face time
23% faster


And that's a comparison against one of the average Clan mechs, versus one of the best IS mechs. It only looks worse for IS when something like the Timber Wolf is used for the Clan example.


EDIT: fixed error with DPS, added heat efficiency and sustained DPS.

Edited by Zergling, 01 February 2017 - 06:01 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Zergling, on 01 February 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

Well, looking at his stats, it is definitely a PBKAC situation. For a more factual argument, here's this IS vs Clan laser vomit comparison I just spent an hour writing up:



If you want to talk about IS Laser vomit with Grasshoppers, then you're talking about the 5P running 5x Large Lasers.
That variant has -15% Laser Duration and +10% Energy Range.

IS Large Laser has 9 damage, 7 heat, 3.25 second cooldown, 1.00 second duration, 450 meter range.
With the GHR-5P's quirks, that is 0.85 second duration and 495 meter range.

Now, because of ghost heat, the GHR-5P cannot fire all 5 Large Lasers at once (unless it wants a massive heat spike): it has to fire 3, then wait half a second before firing the other 2.
That increases the total 'face time' of a salvo from 0.85 seconds to 1.35 seconds, which will inflict 45 damage at the cost of 35 heat (1.29 damage per heat).

Total DPS per Large Laser is 2.12 normally, but due to reduced duration it is 2.20, for a total of 10.98 DPS and 8.54 HPS.


Now compare that to Clan Laser vomit builds, like 2x Large Pulse and 3x ER Medium.

Clan Large Pulse has 13 damage, 10 heat, 3.25 second cooldown, 1.12 second duration, 600 meter range.
Clan ER Medium has 7 damage, 6 heat, 3.00 second cooldown, 1.15 second duration, 405 meter range.

There are no ghost heat penalties, so the Clan mech can fire all of thoe guns at once, for a total face time of 1.15 seconds, which will inflict 47 damage at a cost of 38 heat (1.24 damage per heat).

Total DPS is 11.01, with 8.91 HPS.


Going further, the Grasshopper's 5x Large Lasers weigh 25 tons, while the Clan 2x Large Pulse and 3x ER Medium only weigh 15 tons, so the Clan mech can install another 10 double heat sinks over the Grasshopper.
At 0.15 heat dissipation per double heat sink, that is 1.50 HPS less, so the Clan mech is effecitvely only running at 7.41 HPS in a direct comparison, versus the Grasshopper with 8.54 HPS.

Result: the Grasshopper is at a disadvantage; it has to sacrifice speed to gain the same heat efficiency as the clan mech.


Actual comparison: GHR-5P with 330 standard engine, 5x Large Laser, 10 double heat sinks, for 82.1 kph speed.
Versus: Hellbringer with 2x Large Pulse, 3x ER Medium, 23 double heat sinks, for 87.1 kph speed.

Result? The Grasshopper is as fast as it can be for that weapons build while still using a standard engine, and doesn't come close to the Hellbringer in heat efficiency, lowering its effective DPS drastically.

If the Grasshopper uses an XL engine, it can increase speed slightly (although still not as fast as the Hellbringer) and be much more heat efficient... but then it still isn't as heat efficient as the Hellbringer, and is also much less durable to due to IS XL engine.

So if the Grasshopper wants decent heat efficiency (but still worse than Hellbringer) without being far less durable than the Hellbringer, it needs to lose a heap of speed, like this build with 285 standard, 70.9 kph and 17 double heat sinks.


Then there's sustained DPS: with each Large Laser firing every 4.1 seconds, the Grasshopper has 8.54 HPS, while with 17 double heat sinks (with 10 engine) it has 3.05 heat dissipation per second, for a 35.73% heat efficiency.
So while the Grasshopper has 10.98 maximum DPS, its sustained DPS is 3.92.

As for the Hellbringer, it has 8.91 HPS with 23 double heat sinks (10 engine) for 3.95 heat dissipation per second, for 44.31% heat efficiency.
So while the Hellbringer has 11.01 maximum DPS, its sustained DPS is 4.88.


So Grasshopper advantages:
Structure quirks make it slightly more durable (about 17% more damage to kill)
Slightly better range


Hellbringer advantages:
24.5% greater sustained DPS
15% less face time
23% faster


And that's a comparison against one of the average Clan mechs, versus one of the best IS mechs. It only looks worse for IS when something like the Timber Wolf is used for the Clan example.


EDIT: fixed error with DPS, added heat efficiency and sustained DPS.

You do know that the Grasshopper can torso twist between shots, right? No need to out stare the Hellbringer. (In fact, it is best you do not.)

...or even do some peek and poke between shots. (Have the rocks take the hits for you.)

Edited by Uncle Totty, 02 February 2017 - 02:11 AM.

[Grus]

That's the big difference between clan and is. Thay have a much shorter time to deal that damage vs clan mech and can mitigate the return shot. If you take twisting into account then the clan firing at a bigger alpha won't get the full damage output on one component. You need to do the math for the burn time of the IS time needed to deal damage and calculate what would be possable for a clan mech to do in that same time. I'm telling you now it will be less with more heat. We have to stare at our target longer to deal more damage and hopeven that guyou is a potato and dosnt twist or its going all over that mech ****** ****** otherwise we have to use burst wepons like erppc and gauss (don't get me started on gauss) for that to not be a issue.

[Grus]

If my exposure time is less that means my damage taken is less. So I do need to try and build my clan mech to counter this. Sounds like PPCs and gauss are going to be the bill to go with.

Looks like I'll be in the training grounds working on my gauss skills...

[MovinTarget]

Grus, on 02 February 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

If my exposure time is less that means my damage taken is less. So I do need to try and build my clan mech to counter this. Sounds like PPCs and gauss are going to be the bill to go with.

Looks like I'll be in the training grounds working on my gauss skills...

Some people will laugh but don't discount LB10Xs... May not get all teh pellets on one component/mech but it is forgiving, doesn't jam and AC10 class of weapons have best shots/ton ration IMO...

Also, LBX have *no* ghost heat. that's why you see Kodiaks with 4 LB10X on hot maps...

[Grus]

MovinTarget, on 02 February 2017 - 09:21 AM, said:

Some people will laugh but don't discount LB10Xs... May not get all teh pellets on one component/mech but it is forgiving, doesn't jam and AC10 class of weapons have best shots/ton ration IMO...

Also, LBX have *no* ghost heat. that's why you see Kodiaks with 4 LB10X on hot maps...

I'll look into that, went toe to toe with cuddles a few days ago and didn't get to see how many and what type of lbx's he was using (4 I think) on a direwolf but it finnished off my marauder with a quickness.

[Zergling]

Uncle Totty, on 02 February 2017 - 02:10 AM, said:

You do know that the Grasshopper can torso twist between shots, right? No need to out stare the Hellbringer. (In fact, it is best you do not.)

...or even do some peek and poke between shots. (Have the rocks take the hits for you.)

Oh gee, the Grasshopper has to use specific tactics to negate a large sustained DPS advantage, while the Hellbringer only has to stare at the enemy mech to win.

That's like, totally balanced guys!



Less sarcastic: what is the Grasshopper going to do when it is facing clan mechs with significantly greater alpha damage?

I picked the Hellbringer because the twin Large Pulse, triple ER Med build it commonly runs is near equal in alpha damage.
I could have easily compared versus the Timber Wolf or Night Gyr, at which point the Grasshopper has inferior alpha damage and sustained DPS.

Hell, even the Summoner can put out better alpha damage with a laser vomit build, while still being more heat efficient, more sustained DPS and being significantly more mobile.
And that's with the Summoner having lost its -10% energy heat generation quirk.


Seriously, look at a Timby with 2x Large Pulse and 4x ER Meds; that is a 54 damage alpha with 5.34 sustained DPS.
The Timby can even sacrifice some sustained DPS for more alpha, dropping at heat sink for a 5th ER Med, increasing alpha to 61 and sustained DPS down to 5.12.
Or go even higher alpha, dropping another heat sink for a 6th ER Med, increasing alpha to 68 and sustained DPS down to 4.90.

Just how is a Grasshopper with 45 alpha and 3.92 sustained DPS going to compete with 68 alpha and 4.90 sustained DPS?
That's a 51% advantage in alpha and 25% advantage in sustained DPS; the Grasshopper can't compete with that, even with its structure quirks.

Grus, on 02 February 2017 - 08:05 AM, said:

That's the big difference between clan and is. Thay have a much shorter time to deal that damage vs clan mech and can mitigate the return shot. If you take twisting into account then the clan firing at a bigger alpha won't get the full damage output on one component. You need to do the math for the burn time of the IS time needed to deal damage and calculate what would be possable for a clan mech to do in that same time. I'm telling you now it will be less with more heat. We have to stare at our target longer to deal more damage and hopeven that guyou is a potato and dosnt twist or its going all over that mech ****** ****** otherwise we have to use burst wepons like erppc and gauss (don't get me started on gauss) for that to not be a issue.

Nope; when you take into account ghost heat limits for IS large laser vomit extending face time, the IS doesn't have an advantage in beam duration.


Further, many clan laser weapons actually inflict more damage in the same amount of time as comparable IS laser weapons.

IS Large Laser: 9 damage, 1.00 second duration = 9 damage/second
IS Medium Laser: 5 damage, 0.90 second duration = 5.55 damage/second

Clan Large Pulse Laser: 13 damage, 1.12 second duration = 11.61 damage/second
Clan ER Medium Laser: 7 damage, 1.15 second duration = 6.09 damage/second


As for ER PPC/Gauss, the meta has actually favoured those for many months now. Eg, the best Timber Wolf build isn't laser vomit, but 2x ER PPC + 1x Gauss.

Edited by Zergling, 02 February 2017 - 06:31 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh gee, the Grasshopper has to use specific tactics to negate a large sustained DPS advantage, while the Hellbringer only has to stare at the enemy mech to win.

That's like, totally balanced guys!



Less sarcastic: what is the Grasshopper going to do when it is facing clan mechs with significantly greater alpha damage?

I picked the Hellbringer because the twin Large Pulse, triple ER Med build it commonly runs is near equal in alpha damage.
I could have easily compared versus the Timber Wolf or Night Gyr, at which point the Grasshopper has inferior alpha damage and sustained DPS.

Hell, even the Summoner can put out better alpha damage with a laser vomit build, while still being more heat efficient, more sustained DPS and being significantly more mobile.
And that's with the Summoner having lost its -10% energy heat generation quirk.


Seriously, look at a Timby with 2x Large Pulse and 4x ER Meds; that is a 54 damage alpha with 5.46 sustained DPS.
The Timby can even sacrifice some sustained DPS for more alpha, dropping at heat sink for a 5th ER Med, increasing alpha to 63 and sustained DPS down to 5.18.
Or go even higher alpha, dropping another heat sink for a 6th ER Med, increasing alpha to 70 and sustained DPS down to 4.98.

Just how is a Grasshopper with 45 alpha and 3.92 sustained DPS going to compete with 70 alpha and 4.98 sustained DPS?
That's a 55% advantage in alpha and 27% advantage in sustained DPS; the Grasshopper can't compete with that, even with its structure quirks.




Nope; when you take into account ghost heat limits for IS large laser vomit extending face time, the IS doesn't have an advantage in beam duration.


Further, many clan laser weapons actually inflict more damage in the same amount of time as comparable IS laser weapons.

IS Large Laser: 9 damage, 1.00 second duration = 9 damage/second
IS Medium Laser: 5 damage, 0.90 second duration = 5.55 damage/second

Clan Large Pulse Laser: 13 damage, 1.12 second duration = 11.61 damage/second
Clan ER Medium Laser: 7 damage, 1.15 second duration = 6.09 damage/second


As for ER PPC/Gauss, the meta has actually favoured those for many months now. Eg, the best Timber Wolf build isn't laser vomit, but 2x ER PPC + 1x Gauss.

You may be doing more DPS, but you are also doing it to more of my mech. I can just twist as I let you get the first shot. Then put three in that left torso of yours just as you turn, then put the two in when you turn back to fire. Rinse and repeat. Yes, I would be hurting. But what would the firepower of yours be with that side torso gone?

[Zergling]

Uncle Totty, on 02 February 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

You may be doing more DPS, but you are also doing it to more of my mech. I can just twist as I let you get the first shot. Then put three in that left torso of yours just as you turn, then put the two in when you turn back to fire. Rinse and repeat. Yes, I would be hurting. But what would the firepower of yours be with that side torso gone?

You do realise that 68 is a greater number than 45, right?

And you do realise that Clan mechs are capable of torso twisting too, right?


Exactly how is the Grasshopper supposed to gain an advantage by torso twisting when it has far less alpha damage and greater face time?
In the 0.85 seconds the Grasshopper is staring at the Timby to fire 3 or 2 large lasers, the Timby can deliver 51 points of its 68 damage alpha strike.

How is delivering 27 or 18 pinpoint damage going to beat 51 pinpoint damage, especially when the Timby is going to twist to avoid one of the Grasshopper's two strikes?


Eg, if the Timby takes 27 damage to its LT from the Grasshopper's first strike, the Grasshopper is going to take 51 damage to its RT or CT before it can twist away.

When the Grasshopper twists back to shoot the other large lasers for another 18 damage, the Timby will have twisted to take the damage on its CT or RT.

Then the Timby can twist back and wait for another shot at the Grasshopper's RT or CT, where it will do at least another 51 points of damage to before the Grasshopper twists away again, while taking only 27 damage to its LT.

This process will repeat until the Grasshopper is dead, because it sure as hell will be dead when it is taking at least 51 points of damage to one location each cycle, versus 27 damage to one location to the Timby, and 18 damage to another location on the Timby.

Edited by Zergling, 02 February 2017 - 06:33 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

You do realise that 70 is a greater number than 45, right?

And you do realise that Clan mechs are capable of torso twisting too, right?


Exactly how is the Grasshopper supposed to gain an advantage by torso twisting when it has far less alpha damage and greater face time?
In the 0.85 seconds the Grasshopper is staring at the Timby to fire 3 or 2 large lasers, the Timby can deliver 51 points of its 70 damage alpha strike.

How is delivering 27 or 18 pinpoint damage going to beat 51 pinpoint damage, especially when the Timby is going to twist to avoid one of the Grasshopper's two strikes?


Eg, if the Timby takes 27 damage to its LT from the Grasshopper's first strike, the Grasshopper is going to take 51 damage to its RT or CT before it can twist away.

When the Grasshopper twists back to shoot the other large lasers for another 18 damage, the Timby will have twisted to take the damage on its CT or RT.

Then the Timby can twist back and wait for another shot at the Grasshopper's RT or CT, where it will do at least another 51 points of damage to before the Grasshopper twists away again, while taking only 27 damage to its LT.

This process will repeat until the Grasshopper is dead, because it sure as hell will be dead when it is taking at least 51 points of damage to one location each cycle, versus 27 damage to one location to the Timby, and 18 damage to another location on the Timby.

Dude, you have a large box sitting high up on your left shoulder. No twisting can hide that form me. Also, I will not be firing the same time you are. As I said before, I will twist when you fire, then fire when you turn away from/back towards me, then twist again.

[Zergling]

Uncle Totty, on 02 February 2017 - 05:16 PM, said:

Dude, you have a large box sitting high up on your left shoulder. No twisting can hide that form me. Also, I will not be firing the same time you are. As I said before, I will twist when you fire, then fire when you turn away from/back towards me, then twist again.

Then you're assuming a player skill advantage for the Grasshopper. If you're going to be talking about balance, neither party should have an advantage in player skill.

In a skill neutral scenario, the Grasshopper is horribly outclassed, because the Timby isn't going to have any problems spreading the damage it receives; for every bit of skill in aiming that allows the Grasshopper to aim at the shoulder box on the Timby is balanced by skill on the Timby player making it a hard target by moving around.
In other words, you can only pinpoint the Timby LT when it is driven by a potato and the Grasshopper isn't.

At the same time, the Timby is going to wait for the Grasshopper to stop twisting before it fires, so that it can focus the damage.
The only reason it'd be firing while the Grasshopper is still twisting is if the Timby player is of inferior skill to the Grasshopper.


If you want, I can (yet again) make it even worse for the Grasshopper, by bringing out a Night Gyr laser vomit build.
That's a 74 damage alpha (with 68 points of that being done in 0.85 seconds) with 4.83 sustained DPS and the advantage of jumpjets (Grasshopper drops to 64.7 kph and 3.73 sustained DPS to mount jumpjets).

Edited by Zergling, 02 February 2017 - 06:44 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

Then you're assuming a player skill advantage for the Grasshopper. If you're going to be talking about balance, neither party should have an advantage in player skill.

In a skill neutral scenario, the Grasshopper is horribly outclassed, because the Timby isn't going to have any problems spreading the damage it receives; for every bit of skill in aiming that allows the Grasshopper to aim at the shoulder box on the Timby is balanced by skill on the Timby player making it a hard target by moving around.
In other words, you can only pinpoint the Timby LT when it is driven by a potato and the Grasshopper isn't.

At the same time, the Timby is going to wait for the Grasshopper to stop twisting before it fires, so that it can focus the damage.
The only reason it'd be firing while the Grasshopper is still twisting is if the Timby player is of inferior skill to the Grasshopper.


If you want, I can (yet again) make it even worse for the Grasshopper, by bringing out a Night Gyr laser vomit build.
That's a 74 damage alpha (with 68 points of that being done in 0.85 seconds), with 4.83 sustained DPS, along with the advantage of jumpjets (Grasshopper will lose a fair bit of sustained DPS and/or speed to mount jumpjets).

Furthermore many more exp. players build their timbys and jags without using the high shoulder pods for that very reason... we often ran symetric builds in 228 so that IS would have to work harder to take us out of the fight. Of course you lose some peek/poke ability but if the skill is assumed to be equal, you don't want to give them any easy targets.

[Zergling]

MovinTarget, on 02 February 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Furthermore many more exp. players build their timbys and jags without using the high shoulder pods for that very reason... we often ran symetric builds in 228 so that IS would have to work harder to take us out of the fight. Of course you lose some peek/poke ability but if the skill is assumed to be equal, you don't want to give them any easy targets.

Yep, can run 2x Large Pulse and 5x ER Med without using the shoulder pod. That is still 61 point alpha (with 46 points in 0.85 seconds) and 5.12 sustained DPS, far superior to the Grasshopper.

Edited by Zergling, 02 February 2017 - 06:51 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh gee, the Grasshopper has to use specific tactics to negate a large sustained DPS advantage, while the Hellbringer only has to stare at the enemy mech to win.

That's like, totally balanced guys!

Try staring down an IS laserboat that is piloted by an experienced MechWarrior with a glass-cannon Hellbringer.

[Zergling]

S0ulReapr, on 02 February 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

Try staring down an IS laserboat that is piloted by an experienced MechWarrior with a glass-cannon Hellbringer.

I like the potato-tier assumption that the Hellbringer will just stare at the IS laserboat.

See, if both players are 'experienced', they'll both be torso twisting around to spread damage, so it will come down to what mech has the most advantages.
The Grasshopper has the advantage of structure quirks, while the Hellbringer is faster, can fire all its weapons in a smaller amount of time, and is more heat efficient.

So unless the Grasshopper player is better, he is probably going to lose.

And as I said before, that's a comparison between one of the best IS heavy mechs with one of the average Clan heavy mechs.
If you compare the Grasshopper with a Timber Wolf or Night Gyr, it goes from the Grasshopper 'probably' going to lose to 'almost definitely'.

Edited by Zergling, 02 February 2017 - 07:44 PM.

[Edward Hazen]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

I like the potato-tier assumption that the Hellbringer will just stare at the IS laserboat.

See, if both players are 'experienced', they'll both be torso twisting around to spread damage, so it will come down to what mech has the most advantages.
The Grasshopper has the advantage of structure quirks, while the Hellbringer is faster, can fire all its weapons in a smaller amount of time, and is more heat efficient.

So unless the Grasshopper player is better, he is probably going to lose.

And as I said before, that's a comparison between one of the best IS heavy mechs with one of the average Clan heavy mechs.
If you compare the Grasshopper with a Timber Wolf or Night Gyr, it goes from the Grasshopper 'probably' going to lose to 'almost definitely'.

What Hellbringer build is more heat efficient, than a quirked out Grasshopper?

[Zergling]

S0ulReapr, on 03 February 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

What Hellbringer build is more heat efficient, than a quirked out Grasshopper?

The builds I posted above in a previous post:
2x Large Pulse and 3x ER Medium Hellbringer; it has 3.95 heat dissipation per second versus 8.91 HPS for 44.31% heat efficiency (note that smurfy's heat efficiency and sustained DPS calculation isn't perfectly accurate).

Grasshopper 5P with 5x Large Laser; it has 3.05 heat dissipation per second versus 8.54 HPS for 35.73% heat efficiency.

There's also net heat generation per second, which shows how quickly each mech heats up while firing all weapons as fast as they can.
Hellbringer: 8.91 heat generation minus 3.95 heat dissipation equals +4.96 heat per second.
Grasshopper 5P: 8.54 heat generation minus 3.05 heat dissipation equals +5.49 heat per second.


That said, the 5H Grasshopper with its -15% energy heat generation is more heat efficient than the 5P when running the same build; 3.05 heat dissipation per second and 7.26 HPS for 42.03% heat efficiency, but it is still inferior to the Hellbringer's 44.31% heat efficiency.
It does gain in sustained DPS, going to 4.45 (versus 3.92 for the 5P), but it is still less than the 4.88 sustained DPS of the Hellbringer.

Note that the 5H has only +4.21 net heat generation per second (7.26 minus 3.05), so it won't heat up as fast as the Hellbringer if both mechs are firing weapons as fast as they can, but because the Hellbringer's heat efficiency and sustained DPS are superior, it can slow its rate of fire until it is matching the 5H in net heat generation and still be doing more damage.

However, I'm wasn't comparing to the 5H because it is considered an inferior variant to the 5P; one of its 5 large lasers has to go in an arm or CT (which means a lower mount), it doesn't have the -15% laser duration quirk of the 5P, and its structure quirks are far weaker.

Edited by Zergling, 03 February 2017 - 01:10 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

I like the potato-tier assumption that the Hellbringer will just stare at the IS laserboat.
...

Zergling, on 02 February 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Oh gee, the Grasshopper has to use specific tactics to negate a large sustained DPS advantage, while the Hellbringer only has to stare at the enemy mech to win.

That's like, totally balanced guys!
...

Edited by Uncle Totty, 03 February 2017 - 01:42 AM.

[Zergling]

Uncle Totty, on 03 February 2017 - 01:40 AM, said:

With the context of reply about the Grasshopper torso-twisting to spread damage, my statement of "I like the potato-tier assumption that the Hellbringer will just stare at the IS laserboat.", quite clearly becomes "I like the potato-tier assumption that the Hellbringer will just stare at the IS laserboat when the Hellbringer would also be torso twisting to spread damage in such circumstances".

If the Grasshopper is staring at the Hellbringer, the Hellbringer only has to stare at the Grasshopper to win.
If the Grasshopper is torso twisting to spread damage, then the Hellbringer can do the same, and still win.

Pretty much the only way the Grasshopper can beat the Hellbringer (when both players are equally skilled) is to poke shoot, which will negate the Hellbringer's sustained DPS advantage and the Grasshopper's structure quirks will give it the advantage.
And that isn't an even fight; that is a fight where the Grasshopper has positional advantage. If the Grasshopper pilot can reliably get positional advantage, then that player has the skill advantage and as said before, skill should be neutral for balance discussions.

But gee, context is hard, isn't it?

Edited by Zergling, 03 February 2017 - 02:18 AM.