53 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

This picture says it better than 12 pages in a thread... not really, but if you don't want to read all of it. This is from Tarogatos survey among MWO players that actually play the game at different levels. This is how they rank the performance of the Heavies. Survey made in November or so?



Players of all levels agree that the WHM is only the third best Heavy in the game, and that the two best Heavies are clan heavies.

So PGI, please reconsider nerfing the WHM for the sake of faction balance and player retention.

[1453 R]

Is the Timber Wolf still the best heavy 'Mech in the game? I thought it had fallen largely out of favor with the Ultracomp Overlords in favor of Summoners, Night Gyrs, or (ironically enough) Warhammers as the situation warranted.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 23 January 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

I thought it had fallen largely out of favor with the Ultracomp Overlords in favor of Summoners, Night Gyrs, or (ironically enough) Warhammers as the situation warranted.

No, only the PUG lords think the Night Gyr completely usurped the Timby. The Summoner does make all of them look bad, at least until the nerf goes through tomorrow.

[Bombast]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

No, only the PUG lords think the Night Gyr completely usurped the Timby. The Summoner does make all of them look bad, at least until the nerf goes through tomorrow.

According to that survey, even the pugs don't think the Night Gyr has beaten the Timber Wolf.

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

No, only the PUG lords think the Night Gyr completely usurped the Timby. The Summoner does make all of them look bad, at least until the nerf goes through tomorrow.

I'unno. I'm not an Ultracomp Overlord but I kept hearing UOs talking about how the Timber Wolf had lost a lot of its luster compared to newer options. I never figured it was bad, but I had to wonder if folks were just using other, more specialized chassis instead of the broad generalist Timber Wolf. Ultracomps love nothing better than ultraspecialization in my experience, and the TBR is traditionally not an ultraspecialist.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bombast, on 23 January 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

According to that survey, even the pugs don't think the Night Gyr has beaten the Timber Wolf.

This was taken 2 months ago before it was c-bill available.

1453 R, on 23 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

I'unno. I'm not an Ultracomp Overlord but I kept hearing UOs talking about how the Timber Wolf had lost a lot of its luster compared to newer options.

Who exactly are you considering UOs?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 January 2017 - 09:23 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

No, only the PUG lords think the Night Gyr completely usurped the Timby. The Summoner does make all of them look bad, at least until the nerf goes through tomorrow.

Aye, I don't think the full set of nipples were released for the summoners when the survey was done. At least they didn't reach through yet, if they still fully have...

[1453 R]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Who exactly are you considering UOs?

No specific individuals. I don't track the Ultracomp scene the way most Ultracomps figure I (and everyone else) should, but I try to keep an ear to what known comp-y names in the forums are saying and what trends are turning up. Clearly not enough of an ear, but that's why one asks, ne?

[Duke Nedo]

If we list the heavies from the top, comp players scores:

TBR: 9.5
NGR: 9.1
WHM: 8.6
GHR: 7.9
EBJ: 7.3
SMN: 7.1
HBR: 7.0

5/7 are clans, that's one thing, but even more importantly imo is if you look at the alternatives IS have for metabuilds. Both GHR on 4th and BLK-KNT on 8th place are pure laservomit and can't do PPFLD. CTF scores 3.4... the lighter mechs like TDR and JM6 doesn't do it very well, they have to go rather small engine, tho a bit better than CTFs still. The first real PPFLD platform if you go up in weight in the Maulers at 90 tons and they got their share of nerfs long ago.... so limited options.

[CK16]

I don't trust a popular opinion poll....data easy skewed with potatoes going to potato...

[1453 R]

CK16, on 23 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

I don't trust a popular opinion poll....data easy skewed with potatoes going to potato...

And yet when Piranha's alleged empirical metrics/data doesn't line up with popular opinion, the place explodes.

Your Whammers will get un-nerfed in a few weeks. All the bad nasty Clan 'Mechs will have twenty points to spend to your hundred and fifty. Y'all will be fine. Blugh.

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

IMO Timber > Night Gyr.

The speed and damage the Timber brings is absolutely excellent. With this mech I can hunt down stragglers or retreat quickly if things go south and survive. The only downpoint is it that it's flimsy.

The Night Gyr does it's nasty work in a very different way but the speed difference is the key here. I'd take 3 timbers above 3 night gyrs any day.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CK16, on 23 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

I don't trust a popular opinion poll....data easy skewed with potatoes going to potato...

I'm pretty sure Tarogato could give you the std deviations for each group so you can get a good gauge on how uniform the comp survey was since a potato would probably answer very differently.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 January 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

CK16, on 23 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

I don't trust a popular opinion poll....data easy skewed with potatoes going to potato...

In the poll both potatoes and potato-farmers agree tho.

1453 R, on 23 January 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

And yet when Piranha's alleged empirical metrics/data doesn't line up with popular opinion, the place explodes.

Your Whammers will get un-nerfed in a few weeks. All the bad nasty Clan 'Mechs will have twenty points to spend to your hundred and fifty. Y'all will be fine. Blugh.

If Piranha's empirical data shows that WHM's kick the living daylight out of NGRs and TBRs I'd like to know how they filter it, if at all... perhaps it's the Big Data that is dominated by potato-contributions, or it's something else, who knows? I'd really like to know how they came to that conclusion. My guess is that popularity plays a role somehow.

Perhaps also there was a contribtion from the same place that made them conclude that IS XLs can't be made safe because of STD engines, while clan XLs can be safe despite STD engines...

[1453 R]

Duke Nedo, on 23 January 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

If Piranha's empirical data shows that WHM's kick the living daylight out of NGRs and TBRs I'd like to know how they filter it, if at all... perhaps it's the Big Data that is dominated by potato-contributions, or it's something else, who knows? I'd really like to know how they came to that conclusion. My guess is that popularity plays a role somehow.

Didn't say the empirical data was correct. I don't have the information to make that sort of call. Like I said in the other thread, all I can think is that the Whammer was considered wildly overperforming compared to Sphere 'Mechs, as it's far and away the best/most popular/most competitive Sphere heavy design. They may not be comparing it to Clan machines.

Duke Nedo, on 23 January 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Perhaps also there was a contribtion from the same place that made them conclude that IS XLs can't be made safe because of STD engines, while clan XLs can be safe despite STD engines...

The cXL thing is a lore decision Piranha didn't have a lot to do with. What they're trying to do is what we should all be looking for, really - a Different But Equal option for the iXL that doesn't just flat obsolete the iSTD, the LFE, and also the XXL later on down the road.

They can't un-safe the cXL because the entire Clan OmniMech tech base is built around the concept of safe(ish) XLs and the whole thing falls apart of every Clan 'Mech in the game starts dying the moment someone small-lasers their shoulder, but they can try and jigger the rest of the game's engines to not obsolete each other.

[Requiemking]

Honestly, the fact that the Timby is still so highly rated surprises me, especially with newer options about. I mean, look at it, low slung arms, wide and easy to hit STs, negaquirks on the good omnipods.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Requiemking, on 23 January 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

negaquirks on the good omnipods.

The A left torso is an overrated omnipod.

Requiemking, on 23 January 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

I mean, look at it, low slung arms, wide and easy to hit STs

And yet despite that because of its speed it is still one of the strongest heavies.

[Requiemking]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

The A left torso is an overrated omnipod.


And yet despite that because of its speed it is still one of the strongest heavies.

However, Speed does not make up for bad geometry. Look at the Dragon, one of the fastest Heavies in game, yet also one of the worst because of it's atrocious geometry.

[cazidin]

I'd make a "Why Nerfing the WHM is Good" thread", but I doubt that anyone would get the joke.

[Jman5]

Requiemking, on 23 January 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

Honestly, the fact that the Timby is still so highly rated surprises me, especially with newer options about. I mean, look at it, low slung arms, wide and easy to hit STs, negaquirks on the good omnipods.

It surprised me back then too. It's a great mech, I just don't see it as the best Heavy in the game.