85 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

having seen Topics about IS vs Clan Balance,
and having my own LFE Topic in Feature Suggestion,
i thought i would be good to discuss what exactly LFEs offer,


first off what is a LFE?
Light Fusion Engines are Engines that fit between STD and LX for IS,
they weight 75% of what STD engines do, and behave much like Clan XLs,

its believed FedCom Scientists had working prototypes as early as 3052-53,
that said Pgi isnt really sticking to the time line, Russ has said that with MWO,
as well as CW in particular is alternate timeline, as such the pilots can write,
the future of the BT universe as well as rewrite when Tech is available,

now for all those who feel that with LFE people will never use XL or STD engines,
i disagree, some Light & Medium Pilots will always want XL's for their Weight savings,
as well as some Heavy & Assault Pilots will always want STD's for their survivability,


But how much Tonnage will LFE save you?
Below is a List of how much Engines Weigh,
Size-..............STD-..............LFE-..............XL........
100-...............1.0.................1.0................0.5........
110-...............2.5.................1.5................1.0........
120-...............3.0.................1.5................1.0........
130-...............4.5.................3.0................2.5........
140-...............5.0.................3.5................2.5........
150-...............6.5.................5.0................4.0........
160-...............7.0.................5.5................4.0........
170-...............7.0.................5.5................4.0........
180-...............9.0.................7.0................5.5........
190-...............9.5.................7.5................6.0........
200-..............11.5................9.5................7.5........
210-..............13.0...............10.5...............8.5........
220-..............14.0...............11.5...............9.0........
230-..............15.5...............13.0..............10.5........
240-..............16.5...............13.5..............11.0........
250-..............18.5...............15.5..............12.5........
260-..............19.5...............16.0..............13.0........
270-..............20.5...............17.0..............13.5........
280-..............22.0...............18.0..............14.0........
290-..............23.5...............19.0..............15.0........
300-..............25.0...............20.0..............15.5........
310-..............27.5...............22.5..............17.5........
320-..............29.5...............24.0..............18.5........
330-..............31.5...............25.5..............19.5........
340-..............34.0...............27.0..............20.5........
350-..............36.5...............29.0..............22.0........
360-..............40.0...............31.5..............23.5........
370-..............43.5...............34.5..............25.5........
380-..............48.0...............37.5..............27.5........
390-..............53.0...............41.5..............30.0........
400-..............59.5...............46.5..............33.5........
(these LFE Values almost exactly between STD and XL)
(i believe LFE take up the same Crit-Space as a Clan XL)


but what can i do with just a few Tons?
well IS weapon weight vs Clans,

Lasers= less damage & less range, but Less heat & shorter beam duration,
--S&M weigh the same as clan, ER-LL & LPL & ER-PPC +1Ton to clans,

ACs= Same damage but fire single shell, faster cool-down,
--AC10 has LBX version, AC5 has Ultra version, All IS AC fire as fast as Clan Ultras,
--AC2 & AC5 +1Ton to clans, AC10 & AC20 +2Ton to clans, Gauss +3Ton to clans,

LRMs= same damage but fire in a volley, all at once making AMS is less affective,
--all LRM weight double(x2) to clans, but are move affective against AMS users,
mostly this would help with Build diversity,


=Example=
lets look at 2 55Ton Mechs, HBK & NVA,
both are(can be) dedicated Energy Boats,

but lets load them up with the same equipment,
and look to see their free tonnage without LFEs,
HBK(STD), HBK(STD+E&F), HBK(XL), vs NVA(C-XL),

now lets look at the same mech with 250LFE(-3tons from IS XL),
im also adding on 2LPL each as IS weigh +1ton more than Clan,
HBK(LFE), HBK(LFE+E), vs NVA(C-XL),

so the HBK(LFE+E)(-3Tons) has 4 Free Tons,
and the Nva(C-XL)also has 4 Free Tons,
the HBK can also still upgrade to Ferro,

HBK has high mounted Energy Points,
but NVA has 3 more Energy Points,
but Damage? HBK=22 vs NVA=26,
but Heat? HBK=71% vs NVA=56%,


But Clan isnt OP enough to warrant IS LFE,
and this could be a problem Pushing Is over the top,
well i agree that Clan is almost balanced with IS now,

BUT,...
IS will get LFE eventually, i would rather they get it sooner,
and give Clan Quirks balanced to IS with all 3 engine Options,
that way IS and Clan dont have to be balanced again,
when IS do get their LFE,

Also,...
Clan would also get better quirks,
to balance them against a Better IS,

as ive said above i would like to see LFE and ER-ML released,
and then balance clan accordingly to that and everything else,
so 1 Balance pass with LFE and ER-ML,

other than NERF Clan to match everything,
than after LFE and ER-ML finally do get released,
BUFF Clan back up again to make it balanced,
so 2 balance passes when only 1 is needed,


=STD XL and LFE Compromise=
because people keep bringing up that LFE May Make STD & XL engines use less,
and because though they are in Timeline(3052) but as experimental Tech(3052),
Only Release 3 Light Fusuion Engines?
Size-..............STD-..............LFE-..............XL........
150-...............6.5.................5.0................4.0........
250-..............18.5...............15.5..............12.5........
350-..............36.5...............29.0..............22.0........
this would give more flexibility to STD and XL engines,
but still giving the option of choosing 1 of the 3 LFE,


anyway i would like to know the communities thoughts?
what to you think about LFE how do you feel about it?

Thoughts Comments Concerns?
Thanks,


and yes i have a Feature suggestion topic,
that discusses LFE in conjunction with U-Hardpoints
(Is Light-Fusion-Engines / Clan-Universal-Hardpoints!)
note that topic is about LFE/C-U-Hardpoint balance,
where this topic is about its use and your thoughts,

Edit- Notes,
Edit2- Clan Counter,
Edit3- HBKvsNVA,
Edit4- Link,
Edit5- Compromise

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 10 March 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Wolfwood592]

Best thing they could do IMO is advance the timeline to release LFEs and ERMLs. You would quiet the complaints about Clan and further move towards balancing the battlefield.

Good post, great idea.

[Brody319]

Nothing will make me be quiet!
Cept maybe the piranha mech. plz PGI. I wants it so bad.

[Wolfwood592]

Brody319, on 22 December 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

Nothing will make me be quiet!
Cept maybe the piranha mech. plz PGI. I wants it so bad.

ahaha wasn't trying to say you were, just that it would help quiet down the IS players complaining about how OP the clans apparently are :/

[Brody319]

Wolfwood592, on 22 December 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

ahaha wasn't trying to say you were, just that it would help quiet down the IS players complaining about how OP the clans apparently are :/

Most of the IS players don't care about "op clans" they probably think its balanced. Problem is we got like 5-6 people who lurk the forums waiting to spray their venom into any topic that involves clan mechs.

[Wolfwood592]

Brody319, on 22 December 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

Most of the IS players don't care about "op clans" they probably think its balanced. Problem is we got like 5-6 people who lurk the forums waiting to spray their venom into any topic that involves clan mechs.

Yea...he who cries the loudest, gets the most attention unfortunately.

[Brody319]

I think once Light fusion engines and ER lasers for IS are released, they should begin to roll back some of the nerfs to the clans.

Like when IS get uac 2s, 10s, and 20s. and LB-X 2s, 5s, and 20s, they should change the Clan ballistics to single shot like their IS counterparts will be.

[Wolfwood592]

Brody319, on 22 December 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

I think once Light fusion engines and ER lasers for IS are released, they should begin to roll back some of the nerfs to the clans.

Like when IS get uac 2s, 10s, and 20s. and LB-X 2s, 5s, and 20s, they should change the Clan ballistics to single shot like their IS counterparts will be.

You guys really want the single point dmg? I find it much more effective using the "blind" effect from the Clan counter parts for opponent control.

[Mcgral18]

Brody319, on 22 December 2014 - 06:23 PM, said:

Like when IS get uac 2s, 10s, and 20s. and LB-X 2s, 5s, and 20s, they should change the Clan ballistics to single shot like their IS counterparts will be.

Something tells me it will go the other way.

Wolfwood592, on 22 December 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

You guys really want the single point dmg? I find it much more effective using the "blind" effect from the Clan counter parts for opponent control.

It's considerably more effective.

[IronLichRich]

LFE and ERML for inner sphere would be great

[Macster16]

How much crit space do LFEs take in the STs? This is very important, especially for meds that like to pack an AC20 into an ST. XLs take up 3 crits in each ST. Do LFEs take less?

If they do, I've already got some builds in mind....

Edited by Macster16, 22 December 2014 - 08:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Macster16, on 22 December 2014 - 08:59 PM, said:

How much crit space do LFEs take in the STs? This is very important, especially for meds that like to pack an AC20 into an ST. XLs take up 3 crits in each ST. Do LFEs take less?

If they do, I've already got some builds in mind....

LFEs are 2 slots just like Clan XL.

[Macster16]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

LFEs are 2 slots just like Clan XL.

In that case then....

PGI release LFEs plz. Am willing to be your BDSM slave to make happen....

[The Mechromancer]

this idea is so game breakng it's silly.

It would obsolete mechs like the summoner even further than they are now. Mechs like the Stalker would instantly become massively better than the Warhawk.

Clan mechs can have these engines only because they are at a fixed size, with locked equipment and critical slots. Giving IS this gear + their freedom of customization is a teerrrrrribble idea.

IS lights with all their speed and LEs would essentially be PGI removing clan lights from the game.

Edited by The Mechromancer, 22 December 2014 - 10:16 PM.

[FupDup]

The Mechromancer, on 22 December 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

this idea is so game breakng it's silly.

It would obsolete mechs like the summoner even further than they are now. Mechs like the Stalker would instantly become massively better than the Warhawk.

Clan mechs can have these engines only because they are at a fixed size, with locked equipment and critical slots. Giving IS this gear + their freedom of customization is a teerrrrrribble idea.

Technically the LFE is heavier than the XL anyways (with the same size as Clan XL), so there would still be some advantage for the XL.

The biggest issue would be that most people would probably discard their STD engines, myself included. IMO the Clan XL gives the best of both worlds between the weight savings + fragility of the IS XL and the durability + high tonnage of the STD. Best of both worlds. The IS LFE wouldn't be as good as the Clan XL (same size but it's heavier) but it would still be amazeballs. Every IS mech outside of lights would be viable candidates for LFE (lights need all the tonnage they can get, so XL is still their #1 choice, they also tend to get legged anyways).

[Andi Nagasia]

The Mechromancer, on 22 December 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

this idea is so game breakng it's silly.

It would obsolete mechs like the summoner even further than they are now. Mechs like the Stalker would instantly become massively better than the Warhawk.

Clan mechs can have these engines only because they are at a fixed size, with locked equipment and critical slots. Giving IS this gear + their freedom of customization is a teerrrrrribble idea.

IS lights with all their speed and LEs would essentially be PGI removing clan lights from the game.

i agree and disagree,
if they gave IS LFE it would be bad for Clan
BUT,...

Clan would also get better quirks,
to balance them against a Better IS,

as ive said above i would like to see LFE and ER-ML released,
and then balance clan accordingly to that and everything else,
so 1 Balance pass with LFE and ER-ML,

other than NERF Clan to match everything,
than after LFE and ER-ML finally do get released,
BUFF Clan back up again to make it balanced,
so 2 balance passes when only 1 is needed,

[Wolfwood592]

Andi Nagasia, on 22 December 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

i agree and disagree,
if they gave IS LFE it would be bad for Clan
BUT,...

Clan would also get better quirks,
to balance them against a Better IS,

as ive said above i would like to see LFE and ER-ML released,
and then balance clan accordingly to that and everything else,
so 1 Balance pass with LFE and ER-ML,

other than NERF Clan to match everything,
than after LFE and ER-ML finally do get released,
BUFF Clan back up again to make it balanced,
so 2 balance passes when only 1 is needed,

Probably the most logical argument I have seen in a while. And its funny, you did it without complaining, whining, or attacking someone. Some people could use a lesson.

By advancing the timeline and releasing weapons/engines that allow the IS to compete both in range/weaponry with the Clans you are appeasing to the IS. By granting beneficial quirks to clan members, it allows them to not feel as if they have been s*** on and thus start another huge whine fest.

I agree with you on this 100%. Though I do see some complaints about the customization of Clan vs. IS. Here is the only thing I have to say on this.

Clan gets omnipods and crowd control Autocannons...both of which I love

IS gets to change armor/engines but are stuck with the hard points.

To me its a simple and fair trade off, but I guess some people dont see it that way.

[SaltBeef]

There had to be a midpoint concession to the IS XXL. it should technically only be availiable to IS Omni mechs and lock most everything like the clan ones do. Release engine size lock on clan Omni's, endo / FF, as well and IS can put it into any mech the want..

[Khobai]

We need LFEs, MRMs, and ATMs

missile options are very limited right now and we need new missile weapons

[Xetelian]

Put a decent Cbill markup on them and we'll have another money sink for everyone.