90 replies to this topic

[cazidin]

Gentleman Reaper, on 23 January 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

And here you further proved that we can't take you seriously...

I do believe that I made a noble effort to defend and expand upon his proposal, only to be insulted for my reference to Gauss Vomit. Even in my joke threads, I took people's responses seriously and attempted to assuage their fears by reminding them that it's all a joke.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Yes, but people can actually "boat" AC/2's by carrying 4 or more of them, significantly outstripping the damage inflicted by gauss.

Yes, if they keep themselves exposed for a long time. 2 AC2s take 4 shots to out damage Gauss which means exposing yourself for around 2 seconds, compared to the minimal time a single Gauss has to expose itself, let alone the damage spread compared to Gauss.

Yes, rapid fire guns have to have significant DPS to make up for the fact that they simply aren't as good as high PPFLD weapons.

[Dimento Graven]

cazidin, on 23 January 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

I do believe that I made a noble effort to defend and expand upon his proposal, only to be insulted for my reference to Gauss Vomit. Even in my joke threads, I took people's responses seriously and attempted to assuage their fears by reminding them that it's all a joke.

Seriously? Insulted?

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Wow... "gauss vomit"... Wow... Just wow...

Being a bit histrionic there aren't you?

Classifying a weapon system only capable of delivering a maximum 30 points per round every, at best, 5.75 seconds as "vomiting"... WOW.

Declaring a weapon system of 30 tons and upwards of 14 slots having a combined DPS of 5.21 as capable of "vomit".


Even the AC/2 out paces gauss in DPS... Dude, I don't even know how to talk to you.

I don't see an insult there, unless you feel anyone who disagrees with you as being insulting.

You classify one of the lowest DPS weapons in the game as being capable of 'vomit', and you don't think you're being 'histrionic'.

It's not firing a nearly endless stream of rounds that cause a nearly endless cockpit rattle, and endless impact flash.

Boated ACs can vomit, boated lasers can vomit, boated PPC's can vomit, two gauss hitting you every 5.75 seconds is HARDLY vomit.

So excuse me if se anyone making a statement like that being melodramatic or hysterical.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

Yes, if they keep themselves exposed for a long time. 2 AC2s take 4 shots to out damage Gauss which means exposing yourself for around 2 seconds, compared to the minimal time a single Gauss has to expose itself, let alone the damage spread compared to Gauss.

Yes, rapid fire guns have to have significant DPS to make up for the fact that they simply aren't as good as high PPFLD weapons.

Yes, but now with losing 1/3 of the gauss's range, the damage drop off actually makes the gauss a much more vulnerable weapon than the AC/2, and once close in the AC2's DPS will make a significant difference.

I've seen dual gauss builds get caught out in the open at 700 meters or less in front of an AC2 boat. The AC2 boat chews through the dual gauss builds extremely quickly, especially given the extreme fragility of the gauss. All the AC boat has to do is get one crit and it's pretty much over.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 23 January 2017 - 11:55 AM.

[Coolant]

My suggestion is reduce velocity, increase recycle time, reduce ammo/ton, make charge longer, add some heat. That's the problem with trying to balance certain weapons. Those that use them want them buffed, those that don't want them nerfed. I've been playing since Closed Beta, and I can almost literally count the number of matches I've used Gauss. Pays to think outside the box.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

Yes, but now with losing 1/3 of the gauss's range

That only stops it from competing at extreme range like ERLL and ERPPCs (it opens up the door for Light Gauss at extreme range though!). That said I still see Gauss used more than AC2s in comp so I don't feel like any buff is needed for Gauss boats (especially since it buffs Night Gyrs and KDK-3s which don't need it).

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

I've seen dual gauss builds get caught out in the open at 700 meters or less in front of an AC2 boat.

If they are getting caught out in the open then they are doing it wrong because that is where DPS boats SHOULD be killing things. If I'm a Gauss boat I avoid open terrain as much as possible.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 January 2017 - 12:00 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

That only stops it from competing at extreme range like ERLL and ERPPCs

Which is an extremely bad place to be as it reduces long range options, and therefore eliminates variety.

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(it opens up the door for Light Gauss at extreme range though!).

You'll have to explain that to me, I'm not sure how 'light gauss' is going to be allowed to have any more range than 'normal' gauss, but I may be missing something.

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That said I still see Gauss used more than AC2s in comp so I don't feel like any buff is needed for Gauss boats (especially since it buffs Night Gyrs and KDK-3s which don't need it).

That's a bad idea basing game changes off of comp play. I'm fairly certain that less than 1% of MWO's population plays this game 'competitively' so defining a game's capabilities based on such a small subset of play is going to do nothing but cause endless frustration for the over 99% of the rest of your player base.

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If they are getting caught out in the open then they are doing it wrong because that is where DPS boats SHOULD be killing things. If I'm a Gauss boat I avoid open terrain as much as possible.

Yet we have comments like, "You should press W to improve your game play".

We can't have our cake and eat it too, here.

We either have to utilize the weapon as a long range support weapon, OR, undo some of the other nerfs so that it can be utilized more effectively as a brawl weapon (significantly reducing it's fragility and eliminating the charge cycle come to mind).

Right now, it's really not well suited for either.

[Pjwned]

Prosperity Park, on 23 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

I think the OP got it backwards.

1 Gauss should have 3x range as before.
2 Gauss should have just 2x range as per limitations of the charging/capacitor system.

While I don't agree with that idea either, because I don't think gauss rifles should be the only weapon in the game with 3x max range and I think keeping exceptions like that is fairly lame, I do agree that if anything it should be single gauss rifles that retain the old 3x max range and OP has it backwards.

[Dimento Graven]

Pjwned, on 23 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

While I don't agree with that idea either, because I don't think gauss rifles should be the only weapon in the game with 3x max range and I think keeping exceptions like that is fairly lame, I do agree that if anything it should be single gauss rifles that retain the old 3x max range and OP has it backwards.

The only other compromise I can think to make is to adjust the damage drop off so that it still has some significant long range effect is to adjust the damage drop off so that it does maximum damage up to 80% of its effective range.

At between 1 and 1056 meters it should do the full 15 damage, and then at 1057 to 1320 there should be a very steep dive to zero damage.

You'd still have the same significant range nerf, but it would still be a viable long range alternative, while not having the triple range advantage it previously enjoyed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Which is an extremely bad place to be as it reduces long range options, and therefore eliminates variety.

Let's clarify something, it reduces EXTREME range options, not long range (PPC/Gauss is still dominant at long range). That said with an impending tech jump having Gauss competing with Light Gauss at extreme range sounds like a bad idea (since one will be better than the other).

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

You'll have to explain that to me, I'm not sure how 'light gauss' is going to be allowed to have any more range than 'normal' gauss, but I may be missing something.

Because Light Gauss had longer range in lore? Admittedly it was only 90 meters, so hopefully they take a cue from MW4 and extend its range advantage like they've done for a few weapons in this game (like iERLL and ERPPCs).

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

That's a bad idea basing game changes off of comp play. I'm fairly certain that less than 1% of MWO's population plays this game 'competitively' so defining a game's capabilities based on such a small subset of play is going to do nothing but cause endless frustration for the over 99% of the rest of your player base.

Balancing based on top play is generally how most games handle it, the only thing that needs to be cognizant of is weapons with extremely low skill floors that can cause problems like LRMs do in lower tiers.

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Yet we have comments like, "You should press W to improve your game play".

That doesn't mean you should press W through the open instead of cover.....

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

We either have to utilize the weapon as a long range support weapon

It is perfectly fine as a long range weapon, otherwise the Night Gyr wouldn't be using two of them.

[cazidin]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

Seriously? Insulted?

I don't see an insult there, unless you feel anyone who disagrees with you as being insulting.

You classify one of the lowest DPS weapons in the game as being capable of 'vomit', and you don't think you're being 'histrionic'.

It's not firing a nearly endless stream of rounds that cause a nearly endless cockpit rattle, and endless impact flash.

Boated ACs can vomit, boated lasers can vomit, boated PPC's can vomit, two gauss hitting you every 5.75 seconds is HARDLY vomit.

So excuse me if se anyone making a statement like that being melodramatic or hysterical.

Alright. Maybe you aren't aware of this but gauss vomit is when you take 1-2 C-Gauss Rifles and a mix of 3-6 ER-Medium Lasers.

I consider your tone to be insulting, or at the very least, condescending, and you seem to behave this way throughout this read in multiple other posts towards people who simply disagree with or have a different perspective than you. I was willing to entertain your proposal and seriously discuss the merits of it, but I won't be spoken down to, especially not by someone who's ignorant.

If you'd like to tone down the attitude, and talk like an adult? Fine. Good. If not? Then I hope this thread is locked soon and that you learn something from this. Maybe you're having an off day, maybe you don't intend to convey the tone you have thus far, but it's there and you need to do something about it if you want to have a mature debate.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

Let's clarify something, it reduces EXTREME range options, not long range (PPC/Gauss is still dominant at long range).

Except when I'm watching the primary use of PPC/gauss combos (in quick and faction play), it's mostly in the sub-700 meter range, beyond that the speed differential is enough to make it inefficient against any but the potato level player.

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That said with an impending tech jump having Gauss competing with Light Gauss at extreme range sounds like a bad idea (since one will be better than the other).

Because Light Gauss had longer range in lore? Admittedly it was only 90 meters, so hopefully they take a cue from MW4 and extend its range advantage like they've done for a few weapons in this game (like iERLL and ERPPCs).

Well I'm not familiar with the lore of the light gauss in BT/MW. I'd stopped playing TT by that point, so can't really speak from any kind of knowledgeable perspective.

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Balancing based on top play is generally how most games handle it, the only thing that needs to be cognizant of is weapons with extremely low skill floors that can cause problems like LRMs do in lower tiers.

I don't think so, OTHER THAN, to eliminate those extreme outliers where the 'top players' figure out some unforeseen dynamic in the game to exploit. Then, yeah, before it becomes common meta, they'll nerf it or address it, but over all game play is not balanced specifically on what the 1%'ers are doing.

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That doesn't mean you should press W through the open instead of cover.....

And yet you can't spend your entire game hiding behind a build either. At some point you've got to cross open ground. HOPEFULLY, you're doing it with the rest of your team, granted, but yeah it's a direct fire weapon, requiring line of site.

That plus, y'know, you may have cover in front of you, but behind you is open and you just got flanked through no fault of your own.

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It is perfectly fine as a long range weapon, otherwise the Night Gyr wouldn't be using two of them.

It works well on the NTG because it's a Clan 'mech that can move at a significant speed, AND EASILY accommodate dual ERLL, or other weapons as backup.

Now, on say a KGC where it takes a lot of wrangling to get a top speed of 56.6kph, have mostly full armor, dual ERLL backups, and enough ammo to be meaningful, that nerf is especially painful, and don't even get started on the JM6, being only a heavy and the limitations it has to suffer...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Except when I'm watching the primary use of PPC/gauss combos (in quick and faction play), it's mostly in the sub-700 meter range, beyond that the speed differential is enough to make it inefficient against any but the potato level player.

The speed difference means you have to separately fire them, but at about 800-900m is where extreme range basically starts and where things like ERLL and (quirked) ERPPCs become dominant.

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Well I'm not familiar with the lore of the light gauss in BT/MW. I'd stopped playing TT by that point, so can't really speak from any kind of knowledgeable perspective.

Maybe don't assume things then?

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

but over all game play is not balanced specifically on what the 1%'ers are doing.

And that is why balance is a problem and we have nerfs like those for the Shadow Cat incoming.

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

And yet you can't spend your entire game hiding behind a build either. At some point you've got to cross open ground. HOPEFULLY, you're doing it with the rest of your team, granted, but yeah it's a direct fire weapon, requiring line of site.

That plus, y'know, you may have cover in front of you, but behind you is open and you just got flanked through no fault of your own.

Depends on the map, on something like Frozen City or Alpine, sure closing to 600-800m range might be difficult without touching open ground. On other maps though? I don't necessarily agree.

If you are getting flanked though, that is your own fault (it's a problem with your positioning or your team's positioning).

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

It works well on the NTG because it's a Clan 'mech that can move at a significant speed, AND EASILY accommodate dual ERLL, or other weapons as backup.

In other words you just want IS Gauss to be buffed, which is acceptable, but this isn't a buff I would support for IS Gauss.

[Pjwned]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

The only other compromise I can think to make is to adjust the damage drop off so that it still has some significant long range effect is to adjust the damage drop off so that it does maximum damage up to 80% of its effective range.

At between 1 and 1056 meters it should do the full 15 damage, and then at 1057 to 1320 there should be a very steep dive to zero damage.

You'd still have the same significant range nerf, but it would still be a viable long range alternative, while not having the triple range advantage it previously enjoyed.

You're not really making a good case for an actual compromise there...at all. If anything, having 1050m+ optimal range would be way better than 3x max range.

We could also just leave gauss rifle range alone because it's fine as is.

Edited by Pjwned, 23 January 2017 - 12:55 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

The speed difference means you have to separately fire them, but at about 800-900m is where extreme range basically starts and where things like ERLL and (quirked) ERPPCs become dominant.

Right and that's my point, separated fire makes it much more inefficient as you're more likely to miss with one or the other.

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Maybe don't assume things then?

And I didn't, hence my telling you, you'd need to explain it to me, because I wasn't sure how a lighter version would end up having more range than the normal.

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You'll have to explain that to me, I'm not sure how 'light gauss' is going to be allowed to have any more range than 'normal' gauss, but I may be missing something.

Thanks for explaining, by the way.

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Depends on the map, on something like Frozen City or Alpine, sure closing to 600-800m range might be difficult without touching open ground. On other maps though? I don't necessarily agree.

Don't forget Tourmaline Desert and Polar Highlands, yes there's cover there, but an incredible amount of open space and more likely than not, even IF you have cover in front of you, you're wide open to the rear...

Most maps have some open ground and the positioning of the spawn points requires crossing some amount of open ground to get to the 'common' battle lines.

But yes, some maps are worse than others.

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If you are getting flanked though, that is your own fault (it's a problem with your positioning or your team's positioning).

Not always. It's only your fault if you know with absolute certainty where all 12 of the enemies 'mechs are and where they are moving.

Since that is rarely the case, there's going to be some times where you've done everything right and you still end up with enemy 'mechs to your rear.

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In other words you just want IS Gauss to be buffed, which is acceptable, but this isn't a buff I would support for IS Gauss.

Actually no. I think the gauss range should be adjusted for both IS and Clans, again for the amount of drawbacks and limitations this weapon system has had to suffer to ALSO nerf the living bejeezus out of its range (or the potential maximum damage curve) is just too much.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 23 January 2017 - 12:57 PM.

[NRP]

While I don't really like the OP's idea for encouraging dual wielding, I do like the idea of reevaluating the Gauss rifle system. For a single Gauss rifle, no charge and fire mechanic. If 2+ Gauss rifles are equipped, or if a Gauss is paired with a PPC, then impose the charge mechanic and fire mechanic. Reasoning would be the mech has a finite power supply system, so it can't instantaneously deliver enough power for boated weapons.

This way, a single Gauss rifle isn't needlessly hindered.

[Dimento Graven]

Pjwned, on 23 January 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

...

We could also just leave gauss rifle range alone because it's fine as is.

I disagree.

For the size, fragility, lack of DPS, simultaneous fire limitation, and firing process, the key differentiator it had for it besides the low heat, was its range.

Now?

All it has is low heat, and with 7 slots, 15 tons, just for the weapon itself (not even including tonnage and slots for ammo), there are much better options available.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

If they are getting caught out in the open then they are doing it wrong because that is where DPS boats SHOULD be killing things. If I'm any mech I avoid open terrain as much as possible.

FTFY

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Right and that's my point, separated fire makes it much more inefficient as you're more likely to miss with one or the other.

Doesn't mean it still isn't powerful at long range.....

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Don't forget Tourmaline Desert and Polar Highlands, yes there's cover there

Polar and Tourmaline both have sufficient enough cover to push close enough for most setups. Really you should only have problems getting within range against a coordinated team that specifically setup for extreme range and even then you can generally make a push to get within that range.

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Most maps have some open ground and the positioning of the spawn points requires crossing some amount of open ground to get to the 'common' battle lines.

Not that would stop you from closing enough distance to do enough damage with Gauss.....

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Not always. It's only your fault if you know with absolute certainty where all 12 of the enemies 'mechs are and where they are moving.

If you don't know where those 12 mechs are then someone made an error with their scouting or you should play more cognizant, deploy a UAV if you are sitting somewhere that easy to flank.

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Since that is rarely the case, there's going to be some times where you've done everything right and you still end up with enemy 'mechs to your rear.

The only time that is the case is if you make a push and your lights are more aggressive than the lights currently trying to shoot your rear, otherwise it was someone's fault for not being aware of the positioning of the enemy.

Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

Actually no. I think the gauss range should be adjusted for both IS and Clans, again for the amount of drawbacks and limitations this weapon system has had to suffer to ALSO nerf the living bejeezus out of its range (or the potential maximum damage curve) is just too much.

So you think one of the best Clan ballistics should be buffed, lol sorry but you must be delusional. I don't think the Night Gyr or KDK-3 need to be any stronger (nor do I want to see a return of the quad Gauss Kodiak).

Metus regem, on 23 January 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

FTFY

Lol, well this is true, but open ground is a bit more favorable for DPS mechs.

[Metus regem]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 January 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

Lol, well this is true, but open ground is a bit more favorable for DPS mechs.

Very true, but since I tend not to drive DPS machines, even when DPS was all the rage (Laser Vomit era), hanging out in the open is asking for trouble... I much prefer to flank and murder from the back with PPFLD....