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Angry Balance Rant From Snazzy Dragon


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#41 Duke Nedo

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 04:53 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 24 January 2017 - 04:50 AM, said:

In my opinion the balance changes were somewhat correct: Warhammer was, and will still be the best IS heavy.
Dragon, Cataphract, Orion were underpowered and needed that buff. And bonus armor in place of structure is a huge change.
And the way Summoner quirks were re-shuffled is brilliant IMHO: you can either take great (paywalled) hardpoints, or quirks - but not both.


I don't think anyone would have complained about the Whammy nerfs if NGR, TBR and KDK-3 had received corresponding nerfs. Tuning down WHMs relative to other IS mechs was OK. Making them worse relative to NGR, TBR and KDK was not OK and will make the game worse.

#42 Kmieciu

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 05:08 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 24 January 2017 - 04:53 AM, said:

I don't think anyone would have complained about the Whammy nerfs if NGR, TBR and KDK-3 had received corresponding nerfs.


Truth be told, there isn't a lot of room for nerfs on those mechs. PGI tried negative quirks once and got flamed hard for it. Laser duration and twist speed nerfs were a bad idea.

The biggest KDK nerf was the torso yaw decrease. For me, it made every KDK unfun... apart from KDK-3 because I never have the time to torso twist while using 4xUAC10s.

Now the HBK-IIC (+A and C variants) are getting torso yaw nerfs. This will make brawling that much harder, thus further incentivising long range ERPPC/UAC10/laservomit. HBKIIC was already a mediocre SPL/UAC20 brawler, now we will get even less variety on the battlefield.

Try to nerf NTG and TBR with a worse torso yaw and the only builds that will be left are the ones who are over-performing now.

Edited by Kmieciu, 24 January 2017 - 05:15 AM.


#43 Duke Nedo

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 05:55 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 24 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:


Truth be told, there isn't a lot of room for nerfs on those mechs. PGI tried negative quirks once and got flamed hard for it. Laser duration and twist speed nerfs were a bad idea.

The biggest KDK nerf was the torso yaw decrease. For me, it made every KDK unfun... apart from KDK-3 because I never have the time to torso twist while using 4xUAC10s.

Now the HBK-IIC (+A and C variants) are getting torso yaw nerfs. This will make brawling that much harder, thus further incentivising long range ERPPC/UAC10/laservomit. HBKIIC was already a mediocre SPL/UAC20 brawler, now we will get even less variety on the battlefield.

Try to nerf NTG and TBR with a worse torso yaw and the only builds that will be left are the ones who are over-performing now.


My point exactly too, so let's not nerf the Whammy. :) Instead buff other mechs to viability. It doesn't take that much, you could more or less roll back April quirks (careful with range/duration-combo though and no need to exaggerate the BJ). In april there was a full range of mechs you could choose from that would perform well: WHM, GHR, BLK-KNT, TDR, MAL, BNC, BLR, QKD, STK, BJ, WVR, RVN, and more. What do we have left now? WHM, Oxide, BLR-2C and GHR, and of these only the WHM does the PPFLD.

IS mechs were dequirked in several waves, the rescale hurt a few chassi rather badly and then KDK-3 and NGRs were released and the meta has shifted. These things together has really tipped the balance too far for too long now.

#44 The Lighthouse

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 07:34 AM

View PostKmieciu, on 24 January 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:


Truth be told, there isn't a lot of room for nerfs on those mechs. PGI tried negative quirks once and got flamed hard for it. Laser duration and twist speed nerfs were a bad idea.

The biggest KDK nerf was the torso yaw decrease. For me, it made every KDK unfun... apart from KDK-3 because I never have the time to torso twist while using 4xUAC10s.

Now the HBK-IIC (+A and C variants) are getting torso yaw nerfs. This will make brawling that much harder, thus further incentivising long range ERPPC/UAC10/laservomit. HBKIIC was already a mediocre SPL/UAC20 brawler, now we will get even less variety on the battlefield.

Try to nerf NTG and TBR with a worse torso yaw and the only builds that will be left are the ones who are over-performing now.



Yeah, so PGI could just apply yaw decrease on KDK-3 ONLY as a negative quirk (or the nerf that actually put KDK-3 among other KDK variants.) Very simple, no one would cried.

But for some reason PGI decided to nerf ALL KDK variants instead.

Just like they are doing this to Summoners and Warhammer. Just... I really do not understand this company. I really doubt they actually understand their own game.

#45 Mystere

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 11:13 AM

View PostSnazzy Dragon, on 24 January 2017 - 12:26 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...680167870733284

Behold, the earless timber wolf that is colorblind friendly. No gauss cheese and it's still better than the whammy 2UAC5 + meds build for a variety of reasons.


An ear-less Timber Wolf is not a Timber Wolf. It is an abomination.

#46 Rusharn

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 02:54 PM

I do not think the OP fully comprehends what the 40% heat sink efficiency reduction means for many clan builds. First we must review certain mechanics that you claim make clan mechs superior. The first one I would want to address is your 60% damage reduction for hitting a side torso that is destroyed. You only receive the 60% reduction if the destroyed arm mount is hit and not the side torso. For example a Shadowcat's destroyed arm mount is decently large compared to the side torso so you can expect some hits to receive the 60% damage reduction, while a Mad Dog's destroyed arm mount is so small compared to the mass of the side torso that it would rarely receive that 60% damage reduction.

The efficiency of shielding with damaged arms or side torso's is a function of mech design and hit boxes and is not an exclusive defense of one faction or the other. Generally humanoid mechs with flat front profiles and large arms can shield better with their damaged components than other types of mechs, regardless if they are Clan or Inner Sphere.

Next, the Clan will notice the increase heat sink efficiency reduction with damage XL engines. Let us use for an Example the trial Shadow Cat Prime(c) variant. This build has it's weapons mounted to the right so the pilot can use the left side to shield. This variant is running 13 heat sinks, 3 external, and the ten internal that come standard with the clan XL 270 engine. During battle the Shadow Cat pilot successfully uses their left side to shield and loses the left torso. Before the patch the mech effectively lost four heat sinks. The 2 external in the left side and the 20% reduction for their internal heat sinks effectively knocking out 2 more. Post Patch the Shadow Cat is losing 6 heat sinks nearly half of it's cooling effectiveness.

Notating the delay on the paper doll to register destroy components, the pilot could easily fire their weapons as or just after the side torso is destroyed which in the heat of most battles would result in a shutdown for a significant time period. Assuming this does not result in destruction from enemy fire, the excessive heat causes heat damage to the internals. This heat damage could result in destruction of the CT, or other side torso, if they are heavily damage, or could destroy a heavily damaged component such as a leg. Assuming this creeping heat damage did not destroy the mech, the greatly reduced cooling ability has massively reduced the Shadow Cat's ability to fight with it's armament. Now the Shadow Cat pilot can mitigate this risk some what. Relocating the heat sinks in the left torso to the right arm will off set that some what. However their are several Meta laser vomit builds that this is not an option, and this especially effects Clan builds that use asymmetrical builds to shield.

Another example would be the Hell Bringer Clan ER Medium Laser vomit build. In this design the Clan pilot uses the right side of the mech to shield with 6 Clan ER Med Lasers in the rest of the mech. Typically this build has a total of 20 heat sinks and is going to have 3 external heat sinks in the right arm, and 5 in the right torso, with 13 heat sinks in the engine. Prior to the patch, destruction of the right torso would result in the loss of 10.6 heat sinks, the ones located in the right side components and 2.6 from the internal engine from the 20% heat reduction. Post patch the mech will now lose 13.2 heat sinks, well over half of it's cooling capability. Note it has not lost any weapons but the firepower is now greatly reduced because the pilot cannot fire all of his weapons without overheating, their ability to alpha being completely removed. The Hell Bringer suffers all the problems of the Shadow cat in the above example, but more so, as it as lost even more of it's cooling capability and has no way to mitigate the increased heat penalty. Add to this that Clan weapons tend to run hotter than IS weapons and the issue is compounded.

This heat penalty is a creeping doom added to the Clan XL engine. Where an IS XL engine, when destroyed, simply takes out the mech, the Clan XL now adds the frustration of a slow death whether from the death in shutdown, the slow destruction to heat damage, or being crippled despite having the majority of their weapons intact. Point is, the Clans will notice the greater heat penalty, and pilots of omni mechs cannot opt out of this new feature as they cannot change their engines to STD.

Edited by Rusharn, 25 January 2017 - 02:55 PM.


#47 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 02:56 PM

View PostRusharn, on 25 January 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

You only receive the 60% reduction if the destroyed arm mount is hit and not the side torso.

This is false, you recieve 60% damage reduction on ANY damage transfer, not just arm->torso.

#48 Revis Volek

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 03:41 PM

The problem is there is no flavor to add aside from making the IS XL work like a clan one...

They dont use the HP, they dont use the Crits they dont even go critical when you breach em.



Engines in this game were sorely ignored during coding and it is biting them in the *** now. So its either 2 ST for death or 1, there unfortunately is nothing else to change because PGI spaghetti code and no one with a big enough fork to get through it.

#49 Deathlike

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 05:56 PM

View PostRusharn, on 25 January 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

I do not think the OP fully comprehends what the 40% heat sink efficiency reduction means for many clan builds. First we must review certain mechanics that you claim make clan mechs superior. The first one I would want to address is your 60% damage reduction for hitting a side torso that is destroyed. You only receive the 60% reduction if the destroyed arm mount is hit and not the side torso. For example a Shadowcat's destroyed arm mount is decently large compared to the side torso so you can expect some hits to receive the 60% damage reduction, while a Mad Dog's destroyed arm mount is so small compared to the mass of the side torso that it would rarely receive that 60% damage reduction.

The efficiency of shielding with damaged arms or side torso's is a function of mech design and hit boxes and is not an exclusive defense of one faction or the other. Generally humanoid mechs with flat front profiles and large arms can shield better with their damaged components than other types of mechs, regardless if they are Clan or Inner Sphere.

Next, the Clan will notice the increase heat sink efficiency reduction with damage XL engines. Let us use for an Example the trial Shadow Cat Prime(c) variant. This build has it's weapons mounted to the right so the pilot can use the left side to shield. This variant is running 13 heat sinks, 3 external, and the ten internal that come standard with the clan XL 270 engine. During battle the Shadow Cat pilot successfully uses their left side to shield and loses the left torso. Before the patch the mech effectively lost four heat sinks. The 2 external in the left side and the 20% reduction for their internal heat sinks effectively knocking out 2 more. Post Patch the Shadow Cat is losing 6 heat sinks nearly half of it's cooling effectiveness.

Notating the delay on the paper doll to register destroy components, the pilot could easily fire their weapons as or just after the side torso is destroyed which in the heat of most battles would result in a shutdown for a significant time period. Assuming this does not result in destruction from enemy fire, the excessive heat causes heat damage to the internals. This heat damage could result in destruction of the CT, or other side torso, if they are heavily damage, or could destroy a heavily damaged component such as a leg. Assuming this creeping heat damage did not destroy the mech, the greatly reduced cooling ability has massively reduced the Shadow Cat's ability to fight with it's armament. Now the Shadow Cat pilot can mitigate this risk some what. Relocating the heat sinks in the left torso to the right arm will off set that some what. However their are several Meta laser vomit builds that this is not an option, and this especially effects Clan builds that use asymmetrical builds to shield.

Another example would be the Hell Bringer Clan ER Medium Laser vomit build. In this design the Clan pilot uses the right side of the mech to shield with 6 Clan ER Med Lasers in the rest of the mech. Typically this build has a total of 20 heat sinks and is going to have 3 external heat sinks in the right arm, and 5 in the right torso, with 13 heat sinks in the engine. Prior to the patch, destruction of the right torso would result in the loss of 10.6 heat sinks, the ones located in the right side components and 2.6 from the internal engine from the 20% heat reduction. Post patch the mech will now lose 13.2 heat sinks, well over half of it's cooling capability. Note it has not lost any weapons but the firepower is now greatly reduced because the pilot cannot fire all of his weapons without overheating, their ability to alpha being completely removed. The Hell Bringer suffers all the problems of the Shadow cat in the above example, but more so, as it as lost even more of it's cooling capability and has no way to mitigate the increased heat penalty. Add to this that Clan weapons tend to run hotter than IS weapons and the issue is compounded.

This heat penalty is a creeping doom added to the Clan XL engine. Where an IS XL engine, when destroyed, simply takes out the mech, the Clan XL now adds the frustration of a slow death whether from the death in shutdown, the slow destruction to heat damage, or being crippled despite having the majority of their weapons intact. Point is, the Clans will notice the greater heat penalty, and pilots of omni mechs cannot opt out of this new feature as they cannot change their engines to STD.


I don't think you understood that the Clan XL penalty only reduces the # of "Trudubs" in the engine from 10 to 6 (that's what it was meant by 40%) - a loss of 4 "Trudubs".

It's not a global DHS modifier.

It's hard to lose sleep over that value, considering it was only 2 Trudubs before (20% reduction prior to the patch).

Edited by Deathlike, 25 January 2017 - 05:56 PM.


#50 Clownwarlord

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 06:48 PM

No ... eventually Inner Sphere will get new engines which will make all Inner Sphere XL and STD engines irrelevant. Also any punishment placed on a Clan XL now will eventually also be applied to these new engines that the Inner Sphere will receive (you will reap what you sow with all the nerfs, buffs, and whatever has been done to balance to this point).

So in truth your argument is pointless because eventually the Inner Sphere will have similar engines to that of the Clans. I think they call these engines, "Light Fusion Engines" here is the sarna: http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

Again I will state the engine imbalance now is a mute point considering Russ and PGI have stated a time jump for the game as well as future tech, and to not have Light Fusion Engines to be counted in the future tech would be ultimately reprehensible for the MWO game.

Now as for other balances that you, Snazzy Dragon mention of the weapon weight this also is a mute point because as I stated new tech is coming, and with it more weapons that will balance the Inner Sphere and Clan. If you have an issue with the old tech vs new tech I can't help you with that because that is a fact of life the new always replaces the old.

So good luck see you on the battlefield.

#51 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 06:50 PM

View PostClownwarlord, on 25 January 2017 - 06:48 PM, said:

No ... eventually Inner Sphere will get new engines which will make all Inner Sphere XL and STD engines irrelevant. Also any punishment placed on a Clan XL now will eventually also be applied to these new engines that the Inner Sphere will receive (you will reap what you sow with all the nerfs, buffs, and whatever has been done to balance to this point).

So in truth your argument is pointless because eventually the Inner Sphere will have similar engines to that of the Clans. I think they call these engines, "Light Fusion Engines" here is the sarna: http://www.sarna.net..._Engine_-_Light

Again I will state the engine imbalance now is a mute point considering Russ and PGI have stated a time jump for the game as well as future tech, and to not have Light Fusion Engines to be counted in the future tech would be ultimately reprehensible for the MWO game.

Now as for other balances that you, Snazzy Dragon mention of the weapon weight this also is a mute point because as I stated new tech is coming, and with it more weapons that will balance the Inner Sphere and Clan. If you have an issue with the old tech vs new tech I can't help you with that because that is a fact of life the new always replaces the old.

So good luck see you on the battlefield.


All IS tech attempting to mimic the weight savings of clan are inferior to clan tech regardless

LFE will simply obsolete STD engine on 90% of IS mechs but XL will be the superior choice for firepower and internal DHS slots becaause 3 slot DHS is monsterously taxing on crit space

ER lasers for IS are still shorter range, less damaging, and not as heat efficient as clan counterparts

It's a pretty moot point that new tech will make old tech better as well

#52 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 06:54 PM

cant we wait a couple days to see how the new C-XL Penalties Pan out first?

#53 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 06:55 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 25 January 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

cant we wait a couple days to see how the new C-XL Penalties Pan out first?


I notice absolutely 0 difference, personally, except in the executioner

#54 Y E O N N E

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 06:56 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 25 January 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

cant we wait a couple days to see how the new C-XL Penalties Pan out first?


No, because the impact is negligible.

#55 nehebkau

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 07:09 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 25 January 2017 - 06:54 PM, said:

cant we wait a couple days to see how the new C-XL Penalties Pan out first?


lol really?

The IS XL engine is really bothering me. I could live with it when it was just omnimechs, accepting that a locked in engine was your penalty for the durability.... but now with clan battlemechs that DON'T have that limitation and also the benefit of the clan XL engine -- I am ready to throw in the towel due to frustration with whatever thought is going through PGI's head.

#56 Andi Nagasia

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 07:10 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

No, because the impact is negligible.

sadly i feel this will just End with -100% Speed on ST Loss on C-XL,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 25 January 2017 - 07:10 PM.


#57 LT. HARDCASE

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 07:19 PM

View PostFox With A Shotgun, on 24 January 2017 - 02:07 AM, said:


To put it simply, cXL was fine before the addition of Clan BattleMechs. .


Go back to square one, if you really believe that.

#58 MacClearly

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 08:00 PM

I think it really comes down to PGI not being able to properly interpret the data they have. The see mech's like the Warhammers popularity and can't appreciate it being the only solid option and instead read that as over performing. They see clg lasers hardly used and clpl being the choice and instead of fixing the issue with the large lasers they nerf the lpl's...

Now the engine nerf is a compromise to at least making losing a side torso mean something to Clan mechs which it barely did before. Doesn't make things balanced though and probably needs some sort of creative way to do so.

#59 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 09:32 PM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 25 January 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

sadly i feel this will just End with -100% Speed on ST Loss on C-XL,
Edit-


Thats why more penalties to cXL is not the way to balance this issue. It just makes things suck for Clan players without fixing the issue.

#60 nehebkau

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 11:09 AM

View PostAndi Nagasia, on 25 January 2017 - 07:10 PM, said:

sadly i feel this will just End with -100% Speed on ST Loss on C-XL,
Edit-


Still better than instant-death. So frustrating that PGI and logic seem to pass each other in the night.

Seriously, how great would a Kodiak be if they had to use either a standard engine or a IS XL engine? Easy to answer, they would be OK. Add that clan XL and you get awesome. Such blindness.

Edited by nehebkau, 26 January 2017 - 11:17 AM.






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