92 replies to this topic

[GoatHILL]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

It's a pretty easy one...called...learn to aim. That's 20 PPFLD every 2.5 seconds. If you can't cause pain with that, not my problem.

My aim is fine. But if the IS AC10s are so good why am I not seeing them in game?

[L3mming2]

Tristan Winter, on 24 January 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yep, I agree that it's bad. That's my point. If it was so fantastic, you'd see more mechs using it.

but better then buffing the weapons (ballistics and to a lesser degrea ppc and gauss) so they get op on chassi's with great hardpoints, but still suck on chassi's whit not centermounted clusterd hardpoints. they might implement a convergeance distance u can set up for the mech in the mech lab when u dont aim at a enemy mech..

i know this is probably a load more work to implement, but is a better solution do...

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

one also has a significant heat profile advantage, and much quicker cooldown. Last thing we need is return to PPC/AC10 pairing poptarts.

Just speaking as someone who uses AC10s on pretty every mech possible, not named HBK-4G.
(my 3 primary heavies being a dual ac10 Ilya, dual ac10 rifleman and an ac10/4xSRM4 packing Orion, and my standby non Hunchback mediums being the CN9-A and D..both with std AC10s.... and speaking as a flanker and harasser... I love the ac10 as is. It get's a vel buff, I just see more mid range peeking being encouraged, tbh)

I don't deny a projectile vel would be nice, I just worry about reopening pandora's box.

I appreicate what you are worried about, here's why I don't think it would be an issue in this case:

1) Only IS mechs can use the PPFLD AC 10. They are already lagging behind Clan mechs as a whole when it comes to PPFLD loadouts & jump snipers in general (strictly speaking, nothing valuable in the heavy bracket and only the DS in the Assault bracket which is a waste of an assault choice). So this would be an IS buff to mechs that can't even jump snipe who would be giving up long range capability to do so (unlike Clans who run Gauss/CERPPC and can play and mid to long ranges without issue).

2) I don't think we'll see "more" mid-range peeking than exists now - (in terms of saturation). We would simply see more mechs able to play that game (which sounds like the same thing, but teams are still 12v12 so since we can max it now we can't "max" it more). It's lighter than Gauss & it's more versatile in the short to mid range than Gauss (where most QP games happen which means a net change of shorter ranges when people switch from Gauss).

3) It's a mid-range weapon, and should excel at mid-range play. Right now, it's not even a great choice for the bracket it's supposed to compete in and as a weapon barely sees much play at all even in QP, much less actual competitive scenarios - there is simply a more optimal weapon than the AC 10 as a choice in every single bracket.

I

Edited by Ultimax, 24 January 2017 - 01:17 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

L3mming2, on 24 January 2017 - 01:06 PM, said:

but better then buffing the weapons (ballistics and to a lesser degrea ppc and gauss) so they get op on chassi's with great hardpoints, but still suck on chassi's whit not centermounted clusterd hardpoints. they might implement a convergeance distance u can set up for the mech in the mech lab when u dont aim at a enemy mech..

i know this is probably a load more work to implement, but is a better solution do...

I'm not quite sure what you mean, the English is a bit too broken. Are you saying they should fix the hardpoint locations on IS mechs?

[L3mming2]

Tristan Winter, on 24 January 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

I'm not quite sure what you mean, the English is a bit too broken. Are you saying they should fix the hardpoint locations on IS mechs?

no, sr about my english, i have a better idea, they sould inplement a convergeance set togle.
you aim at the mech, ore ground close to it (to get the right convergence) press the togle and then fire at the right amount of lead.

a system like that will be better then buffing the weapons. buffing the weapons will make mechs with good hardpoint placement OP and mechs like the KGC will still suck..

Edited by L3mming2, 24 January 2017 - 01:24 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Brenden, on 24 January 2017 - 08:14 AM, said:

The AC-10 is fine. You just need to better lead your shots.

Ac-10 is fine but it reloads to slow. For the tonnage, range, crit space, and ammo its not a good choice. Improving any of those may make it so.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 January 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

GoatHILL, on 24 January 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

My aim is fine. But if the IS AC10s are so good why am I not seeing them in game?

big difference between fine and button mash ezmode.

[Jun Watarase]

Something has always bugged me about the advertised projectile speeds.

In theory a projectile with 1000 m/s would cover 1000m in 1 second.

But i regularly see mechs moonwalking their way out of projectile flight paths, im not talking about locusts either. Heavies just moon walking their way out of projectile flight paths at 300m or below, i can have their torso lined up, fire, and then they just moonwalk away before the projectiles reach them, even though the projectiles should be 1000m/s or faster.

I wouldnt be surprised if the advertised projectile speeds arent accurate due to some cryengine thing that nobody thought of, like, some kind of friction setting or whatever that slows projectiles down.

[naterist]

You know OP, thats the cool thing about skill tree. You can buff it so that works on any mech you want.

[Bishop Steiner]

Johnny Z, on 24 January 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

Ac-10 is fine but it reloads to slow. For the tonnage, range, crit space, and ammo its not a good choice. Improving any of those may make it so.

2.5 second cooldown for a 10 pt ppfld gun is fine. Especially one with low heat.

They aren't perfect (they are about a ton too heavy, but that's not going to change), but they are fine. The only thing that I would be OK with seeing buffed might be a light projectile speed buff... but again, with PPFLD guns...one has to take those changes very carefully or they go OP, very easily.

Plus people do seem to forget that we have the issues with when a gun is Boated, or more likely here, Synced. People can say what they want, but if I can pack 2x PPC and an AC10...or 2x AC10 and a PPC... I'll take the double AC10 because in any heavy fighting the PPCs are going to bury you in heat, in no time, even if you use all the tonnage difference to go to DHS.

I've shown time and again how single and paired AC10s outstrip PPCs in DPS and HPS, even with the PPC packing an extra 5 DHS.

just one of the points (because MWO forum search sucks)
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__2665525
mind you haven't redone the maths for current numbers.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

naterist, on 24 January 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

You know OP, thats the cool thing about skill tree. You can buff it so that works on any mech you want.

Except any weapon can be buffed with the skill tree, meaning any weapon that is better without the skill tree is better with the skill tree, aka nothing changes.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Except any weapon can be buffed with the skill tree, meaning any weapon that is better without the skill tree is better with the skill tree, aka nothing changes.

MGs and Flamers cannot be buffed with the Skill Tree, at least from what PGI has shown us so far.

So no, not any weapon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2017 - 02:45 PM, said:

People can say what they want, but if I can pack 2x PPC and an AC10...or 2x AC10 and a PPC... I'll take the double AC10 because in any heavy fighting the PPCs are going to bury you in heat, in no time, even if you use all the tonnage difference to go to DHS.

That all depends on hardpoints and tonnage available because the 2 AC10 version is at least 5 (+ 2 for ammo) tons heavier. Most people would rather take ballistics over PPCs because all energy weapons have diminishing returns when you start adding more, but because of tonnage limitations you can't realistically do that on most mechs.

[naterist]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2017 - 02:46 PM, said:

Except any weapon can be buffed with the skill tree, meaning any weapon that is better without the skill tree is better with the skill tree, aka nothing changes.

What changes is that velocity, recharge time, and laser duration are all adjustable now, so combos that didnt fit once can be tweaked to fit. Guass ppc is a good combo, but what about an ac10, and a skill tree dedicated to making an ac20 that synces in speed, velocity, and reload time WITH the ac10? Or srms with equal range and cooldown as a IS large pulse and super narrow spread? Boom, thats a combo that can sync as well as 3 lpl and 5 ml. If people can get imaginative enough, itll shatter the meta and replace it with 50 new metas.

Speedtweak will be gone along with other options, but thats the price of specialization. If better weapons synced better, people would probably use them. I know itd open a lot of new playstyles for me. I just gotta get into spreadsheet warrioring to figure them all out.

Edited by naterist, 24 January 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[FupDup]

naterist, on 24 January 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

What changes is that velocity, recharge time, and laser duration are all adjustable now, so combos that didnt fit once can be tweaked to fit. Guass ppc is a good combo, but what about an ac10, and a skill tree dedicated to making an ac20 that synces in speed, velocity, and reload time WITH the ac10? Or srms with equal range and cooldown as a IS large pulse and super narrow spread? Boom, thats a combo that can sync as well as 3 lpl and 5 ml. If people can get imaginative enough, itll shatter the meta and replace it with 50 new metas.

Speedtweak will be gone

Practically all of the skill tree weapon quirks are generic rather than specific. You can't quirk an AC/20 to sync with an AC/10 because the AC/10 will also benefit from the generic autocannon quirks.

I'm pretty sure Speed Tweak is will its way somewhere in the tree, even if it requires a large investment in a particular branch.

Edited by FupDup, 24 January 2017 - 02:57 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

That all depends on hardpoints and tonnage available because the 2 AC10 version is at least 5 (+ 2 for ammo) tons heavier. Most people would rather take ballistics over PPCs because all energy weapons have diminishing returns when you start adding more, but because of tonnage limitations you can't realistically do that on most mechs.

boating is usually a heavy to Assault thing.

The issue is, making a weapon work for those that can't boat it, without it becoming ridonkulus OP when it IS boated (which , inevitably, it WILL be).

That's something that will never be solved as long as people cling to their EZmode aiming and convergence, because obviously, when everything hits the same place...if one is good, more is better.

RIght now, the AC10 works great in my CN9-A and D. Really well in my RLF-3N (which can pack 2 with 5 tons ammo, full armor, decent speed and a pair of lasers, to boot)

Problem is if one were to buff the AC10 to similar base Specs.... the Ilya will be deadly as heck low mounts not withstaning (or are we going to conveniently overlook the short lived 3xUAC5 Buzzsaw Ilyas before UACs got nerfed?)

ATM not a whole lot more IS that can abuse it as well, but we are getting a tech and timeline jump soon. And soo we WILL have the Gunslingers, Cerberus, Thunderhawks, Emperors, Annihilators, Devastators, Nightstars, etc, etc, etc, that CAN boat the AC10s, and or Boat and Sync PPCs with AC10s.

So if someone can come up with a way to buff solo AC10s that won't become BaF in the inevitable boating, I'm all ears.

[naterist]

FupDup, on 24 January 2017 - 02:56 PM, said:

Practically all of the skill tree weapon quirks are generic rather than specific. You can't quirk an AC/20 to sync with an AC/10 because the AC/10 will also benefit from the generic autocannon quirks.

I'm pretty sure Speed Tweak is will its way somewhere in the tree, even if it requires a large investment in a particular branch.

Ya, im saying youll lose speedtweak or another updrade, but you can make previously unlinked weapons link up. Like maybe the ac example doesnt work, but what about making srms+ ac20 sync up? Or ppc and ac10, like op wants. Lbx and srm without artemis would be an interesting sync. Just adjust srm6's to match lbx10, and maybe have some extra points for speed tweak or structure bonus.

[Johnny Z]

naterist, on 24 January 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

What changes is that velocity, recharge time, and laser duration are all adjustable now, so combos that didnt fit once can be tweaked to fit. Guass ppc is a good combo, but what about an ac10, and a skill tree dedicated to making an ac20 that synces in speed, velocity, and reload time WITH the ac10? Or srms with equal range and cooldown as a IS large pulse and super narrow spread? Boom, thats a combo that can sync as well as 3 lpl and 5 ml. If people can get imaginative enough, itll shatter the meta and replace it with 50 new metas.

Speedtweak will be gone along with other options, but thats the price of specialization. If better weapons synced better, people would probably use them. I know itd open a lot of new playstyles for me. I just gotta get into spreadsheet warrioring to figure them all out.

It will be the first test server really worth doing. Like a must do.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 January 2017 - 03:07 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

That's something that will never be solved as long as people cling to their EZmode aiming and convergence, because obviously, when everything hits the same place...if one is good, more is better.

Convergence won't solve the effectiveness of boating because it is still easier to chain similar weapons together than it is ones with disparate profiles.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

Problem is if one were to buff the AC10 to similar base Specs.... the Ilya will be deadly as heck low mounts not withstaning (or are we going to conveniently overlook the short lived 3xUAC5 Buzzsaw Ilyas before UACs got nerfed?)

The circumstances of the Buzzsaw Ilyas are also completely different, and even were the Ilya shown to be strong it could easily lose some of its quirks.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2017 - 02:57 PM, said:

ATM not a whole lot more IS that can abuse it as well, but we are getting a tech and timeline jump soon. And soo we WILL have the Gunslingers, Cerberus, Thunderhawks, Emperors, Annihilators, Devastators, Nightstars, etc, etc, etc, that CAN boat the AC10s, and or Boat and Sync PPCs with AC10s.

The only one of those that could abuse it better is the Thunderhawk (for 3 AC10s), Cerberus, and Annihilator and some of those have there own issue.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Convergence won't solve the effectiveness of boating because it is still easier to chain similar weapons together than it is ones with disparate profiles.


The circumstances of the Buzzsaw Ilyas are also completely different, and even were the Ilya shown to be strong it could easily lose some of its quirks.


The only one of those that could abuse it better is the Thunderhawk (for 3 AC10s), Cerberus, and Annihilator and some of those have there own issue.

again, abuse is not just in being able to pack 3-4 AC10 but how well they will sync. A Devastator with 2 AC10, 2 PPC, for instance. Emperors, also. I think a lot of people are missing the big picture issues that can and almost certainly will crop up.