62 replies to this topic

[BWS2K]

"...our data shows the Summoner continues to perform much better than its perceived popularity may suggest..."

I've seen comments like this in the last couple patches. It sounds like pilots aren't allowed to go past a certain skill level with any mech. Pilots should get better over time and, if the mech is one of the less popular ones, I think it's more likely to be piloted by more dedicated pilots... and so *would* perform better than expectations... so why is that a reason to nerf it? Does anyone have a better explanation? Otherwise, it's just encouraging the meta which will absolutely undermine the point of non-meta mechs (i.e. few people play that mech so it's not meta but it does well so it gets nerfed, resulting in even fewer people playing it...).

-BW

P.S. I'm not asking specifically and only about the Summoner - it's happening to the Shadowcat, for instance, and others in the last quirk pass.

[Dimento Graven]

BWS2K, on 24 January 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

"...our data shows the Summoner continues to perform much better than its perceived popularity may suggest..."

I've seen comments like this in the last couple patches. It sounds like pilots aren't allowed to go past a certain skill level with any mech. Pilots should get better over time and, if the mech is one of the less popular ones, I think it's more likely to be piloted by more dedicated pilots... and so *would* perform better than expectations... so why is that a reason to nerf it? Does anyone have a better explanation? Otherwise, it's just encouraging the meta which will absolutely undermine the point of non-meta mechs (i.e. few people play that mech so it's not meta but it does well so it gets nerfed, resulting in even fewer people playing it...).

-BW

P.S. I'm not asking specifically and only about the Summoner - it's happening to the Shadowcat, for instance, and others in the last quirk pass.

Hmm... you bring up a good point.

Is PGI taking into consideration the skills of the pilots when assessing a 'mech's "need" for nerfing/quirking?

As the quote suggests, and you imply, it may be that for the most part only the more skilled pilots are the ones piloting the Summoner, due to its bad rep, and they have found a meta build that a skilled pilot can take advantage of.

THAT, plus the fact that the quick play MM is allowing Tier 1's and Tier 4's to face off against each other might result in skewed performance data.

It's an interesting thought. PGI has made similar mistakes in interpreting their data before.

[BWS2K]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

...they have found a meta build that a skilled pilot can take advantage of.

Is there good meta for a Summoner? The Prime with 1xLBX20 w/21rds, an ERPPC, and maximum armor isn't that meta, is it? It's why I'm confused. I would be more interested in seeing the data broken down by tier, which isn't always a positive correlation to skill but it's a ballpark, and then by build - if PGI sets up a stock build and pilots are doing well with minor alterations, it's a good thing... right? Same goes for the Shadowcat. It's a really hard mech to pilot, no two ways about it. That Machine Gun buff from the last patch was lovely for the P-chassis... which is getting a nerf in this pass. It's all so odd.

[Snowbluff]

BWS2K, on 24 January 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Is there good meta for a Summoner? The Prime with 1xLBX20 w/21rds, an ERPPC, and maximum armor isn't that meta, is it? It's why I'm confused. I would be more interested in seeing the data broken down by tier, which isn't always a positive correlation to skill but it's a ballpark, and then by build - if PGI sets up a stock build and pilots are doing well with minor alterations, it's a good thing... right? Same goes for the Shadowcat. It's a really hard mech to pilot, no two ways about it. That Machine Gun buff from the last patch was lovely for the P-chassis... which is getting a nerf in this pass. It's all so odd.

The Loyalty pods added high energy hardpoits to the side torsos. Combine that with arms that quirk PPC velocity stats, 2 PPCs, and a lot of heatsinks and you have a poptart.

[Dimento Graven]

BWS2K, on 24 January 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Is there good meta for a Summoner? The Prime with 1xLBX20 w/21rds, an ERPPC, and maximum armor isn't that meta, is it? It's why I'm confused. I would be more interested in seeing the data broken down by tier, which isn't always a positive correlation to skill but it's a ballpark, and then by build - if PGI sets up a stock build and pilots are doing well with minor alterations, it's a good thing... right? Same goes for the Shadowcat. It's a really hard mech to pilot, no two ways about it. That Machine Gun buff from the last patch was lovely for the P-chassis... which is getting a nerf in this pass. It's all so odd.

Honestly I have no idea if there is a good/meta Summoner build.

It was just a thought process in response to someone else's response.

Like you are asking your thread:

Just where the F is PGI getting this data that indicates one 'mech or another is "over performing"? Can we get access to the raw data to figure out where the heck this "out of left field" shenanigan-esque change is coming from?

I agree, I thought the Summoner was an "ok" 'mech, not an OP one not a necessarily a top tier 'mech, but, Haysoos Marimba, not EVERY 'mech NEEDS to be a top tier 'mech...

[MechaBattler]

Honestly I think they're just going with what's popular in general. Regardless of skill.

[Dimento Graven]

MechaBattler, on 24 January 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

Honestly I think they're just going with what's popular in general. Regardless of skill.

I don't discount the possibility that Russ got butthurt by a Summoner some time recently...

[BWS2K]

Snowbluff, on 24 January 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

The Loyalty pods added high energy hardpoits to the side torsos. Combine that with arms that quirk PPC velocity stats, 2 PPCs, and a lot of heatsinks and you have a poptart.

Oh yeah, the Loyalty one I can maybe see being an over-performer, for sure - but then, that's the point of a loyalty mech (to be better). For the rest of the SMNs though? And, again, it's not just the Summoners this one time, it's several passes that have that explanation.

To be completely honest, I think it's just another misunderstanding of how to accomplish an unclear goal. PGI does some things well but achieving a clear goal in an efficient, timely, and effective manner isn't really one of them. Stating that increasing time-to-kill is something they're pursuing, then nerfing the mediocre mechs while still letting the Big Boys With Toys run around un-hindered... that's going to do the opposite.

I also just noticed today the that copyright thing that pops up when you go to log in still says '2012-2016'. I hope that isn't an indication of where this game is headed...

[dario03]

Pretty sure all they are saying is that despite its bad rep on the forums (guess they read more than we thought) and maybe its usage numbers, the Summoner was pretty good. And personally I agree with them. Even before the loyalty Summoner the PPC poptart Summoner was really good, and then the loyalty pods took away 2 of its big weaknesses (low mounts and could get stripped easily). It also ran srms pretty good and I assume streaks as well. Basically when it came out it was so out shadowed by mechs like the Timber Wolf it got a really bad rep, and then even when they over quirked it nobody used it much even though it was good for a while.

Edited by dario03, 24 January 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

dario03, on 24 January 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

Pretty sure all they are saying is that despite its bad rep on the forums (guess they read more than we thought) and maybe its usage numbers, the Summoner was pretty good. And personally I agree with them. Even before the loyalty Summoner the PPC poptart Summoner was really good, and then the loyalty pods took away 2 of its big weaknesses (low mounts and could get stripped easily). It also ran srms pretty good and I assume streaks as well. Basically when it came out it was so out shadowed by mechs like the Timber Wolf it got a really bad rep, and then even when they over quirked it nobody used it much even though it was good for a while.

But we know the general MWO player gravitates towards 'the easy' (remember the hordes of KDK's, NTG's, etc.?).

If the Summoner was truly an easy 'mech to "OP", we'd absolutely see more of them on the field.

Fact is, we (or at least me) barely see 'em at all...

I'm thinking it's a bad/incomplete interpretation of whatever data PGI supposedly looked at.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 January 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Hunter Tseng]

Its mainly to discourage the pop tarting meta that is prevaling in the clan mechs.
Since the loyalty pods were released, combining with the velocity and cool down quirks, the pop tarting summoner became an excellant high mounting pop tarting machine.
With a huge targeting comp, you can get up to 30-40% velocity with the quirks and energy heat gen and cooldown quirks.
And worse still, to make it only accessible through a very steep paywall of the loyalty variant only makes it even worse.
Trying to rein in abit this erppc poptarting meta is in my opinion a positive step. Especially one that is behind such paywalls.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

But we know the general MWO player gravitates towards 'the easy' (remember the hordes of KDK's, NTG's, etc.?).

If the Summoner was truly an easy 'mech to "OP", we'd absolutely see more of them on the field.

People gravitate to new powerful mechs sure, but the Summoner isn't new so it takes 4-8 months before people start catching on, just like it took them forever to figure out poptarts returned.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

People gravitate to new powerful mechs sure, but the Summoner isn't new so it takes 4-8 months before people start catching on, just like it took them forever to figure out poptarts returned.

That is a possible explanation, but I would have to assume that I would have actually noticed an increasing trend towards pop-tarting in my T1 play, long before now, the expectation that the more experienced/skilled players would find the advantage and make use of it first...

I hadn't.

Even last night, I came across ONE guy in my various matches, and he was doing it in a SCAT, BUT, he wasn't very good at it, so...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

That is a possible explanation, but I would have to assume that I would have actually noticed an increasing trend towards pop-tarting in my T1 play, long before now

Cool story, but not everyone did or we wouldn't have threads in GD questioning whether poptarts are back 8+ months after they returned if that were the case.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

Cool story, but not everyone did or we wouldn't have threads in GD questioning whether poptarts are back 8+ months after they returned if that were the case.

I don't think there's been any significant rise in pop-tarting.

But of course you'd really only notice it if the ones doing the pop-tarting were actually good at it.

Hadn't noticed anyone doing it that was particularly any good at it, so...

[Silas7]

To me I'd bet that T1 players would be slower to adopt a new meta in an attempt to preserve the natural order they've become accustomed to. Maybe FW sees more Poptarts, I wouldn't know as I almost never play FW.

[Dimento Graven]

Silas7, on 24 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

To me I'd bet that T1 players would be slower to adopt a new meta in an attempt to preserve the natural order they've become accustomed to. Maybe FW sees more Poptarts, I wouldn't know as I almost never play FW.

I think most T1 players would disagree with that characterization.

[Jman5]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Hmm... you bring up a good point.

Is PGI taking into consideration the skills of the pilots when assessing a 'mech's "need" for nerfing/quirking?

As the quote suggests, and you imply, it may be that for the most part only the more skilled pilots are the ones piloting the Summoner, due to its bad rep, and they have found a meta build that a skilled pilot can take advantage of.

THAT, plus the fact that the quick play MM is allowing Tier 1's and Tier 4's to face off against each other might result in skewed performance data.

It's an interesting thought. PGI has made similar mistakes in interpreting their data before.

Ideally they would control for skill. However, even if they don't, you could make the argument that where there's smoke, there's fire. If Summoners are performing way above average, and a lot of tier 1 guys are playing them, then it could indicate that that there is something going on here. If the Summoner wasn't performing any better than an average heavy, then you would think these tier 1 players would recognize the drop in their performance from their usual meta-builds, and move away from it.

Personally, I'm ambivalent toward the whole thing. I thought they were strong, and often difficult to fight, but I wasn't calling for any nerfs. Guess we'll see where this all goes.

[nehebkau]

They should have just nerfed the loyalty summoner pods into the ground and left the rest of it.

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

I don't discount the possibility that Russ got butthurt by a Summoner some time recently...

most likely.

Edited by nehebkau, 24 January 2017 - 11:29 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Jman5, on 24 January 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

Ideally they would control for skill. However, even if they don't, you could make the argument that where there's smoke, there's fire. If Summoners are performing way above average, and a lot of tier 1 guys are playing them, then it could indicate that that there is something going on here. If the Summoner wasn't performing any better than an average heavy, then you would think these tier 1 players would recognize the drop in their performance from their usual meta-builds, and move away from it.

Personally, I'm ambivalent toward the whole thing. I thought they were strong, and often difficult to fight, but I wasn't calling for any nerfs. Guess we'll see where this all goes.

My point is, where is this supposed data they're using to base their nerf/quirk decisions on?

I don't like the idea of tuning a game based on the stats of a minority of players. Some people say YOU HAVE to tune it for the 1%'ers, the competitive players, and I call BS on that as it skews the game for everyone else, the 99% of people where the majority of your cash flow comes from. Unfortunately tuning for the tip top end of players is pointless because they're ALWAYS going to find a way towards meta, gaming the system you've put in place.