62 replies to this topic

[Silas7]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think most T1 players would disagree with that characterization.

They are free to, I just thought it was an interesting reversal of conventional thought. We both know people play what they do best with most of the time, if that happens to be a poptart Smn more power to them. I think the skill tree is going to unbalance the game for more people that this most recent quirk pass, so I find it silly people are pulling out the pitchforks so soon.

[Mcgral18]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

Honestly I have no idea if there is a good/meta Summoner build.

The SRM30+A is the tankiest brawler around which can move 90 Kph


That and the ~2 KM/s ERPPCs are the only two noteworthy builds which come to mind
Both are very powerful, but not really overbearingly so (mostly because it can take multiple hits, not so much kill things outright like most other overwhelming chassis')

[Dimento Graven]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

...

Both are very powerful, but not really overbearingly so (mostly because it can take multiple hits, not so much kill things outright like most other overwhelming chassis')

Yeah kind of figured.

Just wish there was more transparency from PGI on the matter. Show us this data they're compiling to come up with these, seemingly "out of the blue" nerfs.

Their own statement on the nerfs basically adds up to:

'They're not popular on the forums, they're not popular in the game, they still need a nerf.'

Really? Why? On what basis?

[Gas Guzzler]

BWS2K, on 24 January 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

Is there good meta for a Summoner? The Prime with 1xLBX20 w/21rds, an ERPPC, and maximum armor isn't that meta, is it? It's why I'm confused. I would be more interested in seeing the data broken down by tier, which isn't always a positive correlation to skill but it's a ballpark, and then by build - if PGI sets up a stock build and pilots are doing well with minor alterations, it's a good thing... right? Same goes for the Shadowcat. It's a really hard mech to pilot, no two ways about it. That Machine Gun buff from the last patch was lovely for the P-chassis... which is getting a nerf in this pass. It's all so odd.

The good meta Summoners are the 2 ERPPC build that utilizes shoulder hardpoints and makes the most of its quirks, and the 5 SRM6 w/art brawler build, which is very good at brawling. The ER PPC version is the one that you will take into the public queue and absolutely wreck face in. Admittedly with these quirk nerfs it will likely have lost a fair amount of its luster.

[BWS2K]

I understand the *better* Summoner builds, but I disagree that they're true 'meta' - you're building up way too much heat or stripping way too much armor to be effective for long. 2xERPPCs, even with cooldown and plenty of heatsinks, isn't enough DPS to be considered "...performing much better than its perceived popularity may suggest..."

And please remember, it's not just the Summoner. This explanation has been used a number of times. My concern is this: It sounds a lot like PGI is making a game that they only want played a certain way... but they aren't telling us the rules. When we do worse than they expected, maybe you get some quirks. When we do better, maybe we get some nerfs. Without context though - i.e. without explaining what the expectation is - it accomplishes little aside from making mediocre mechs obsolete and encouraging meta.

Consider the statements:

Today's Patch Notes: As indicated in the November Patch Design Notes, our data shows the Summoner continues to perform much better than its perceived popularity may suggest, even prior to the release of the Loyalty variants; its performance only increased with the introduction of those Loyalty variant OmniPods. Considering the subsequent data, along with the context of other Quirk changes for other Clan 'Mechs in this pass, we are doing another pass on the Summoner to reduce the Quirks a bit further. While we do not want to outright remove many of its Quirks, we are shifting a number of them to certain Torso mounts, along with removing some of its base Torso Yaw and the Heat Gen Quirk from the CT. The Summoner variants still limited by hardpoint counts and layout should still see most of their existing Quirks retained.

November Patch Notes: While the Summoner isn't exactly seeing wide use these days, our internal data nonetheless shows the chassis putting up consistently high numbers even before the recent release of the two new variants. For now, we are making only minor adjustments to its existing Quirks, and will continue to observe the performance of this chassis as more data becomes available from the recently-released variants. If things do not 'level out', more Quirk adjustments will be considered for the future.

Without any further explanation, this is how I'm interpreting this: PGI has observed not a lot of pilots using Summoners. Data (that I'd love to see!) suggest that these pilots are doing well, especially compared to [an unknown standard that must exist somewhere]. As a result, nerfs have been implemented to 'level out' the mech [...But what *should* it look like? How *should* it perform? We aren't told this.], though, thankfully, Summoners still don't have a lot of hardpoints to be much of an issue [Which they clearly *are* or they wouldn't be considered for nerfing.].

Another example:

Today's Patch Notes: The Shadow Cat is the latest Clan 'Mech to undergo a full Quirk review, and the data has shown that the Cat is currently over-performing relative to the Medium line. In addition to new Set of 8 Quirks, with this patch we are removing its various durability and Machine Gun Quirks in an effort to bring it closer in line with similar 'Mechs within its weight bracket.

Interpretation: The Shadow Cat is too good of a Medium mech, so it needs to be nerfed because [data] (Yet this doesn't help that its a comparison to other Mediums because Shadow Cats don't only fight against other Mediums, that's not how the game works - is the goal to make all Medium mechs the same?).

It's important to know what's going on with the quirks because 1) they aren't *all* going away, some mechs will retain quirks (an interesting thing in itself because, again, it suggests there is a *right* way to run a mech... but PGI hasn't told us what it is), and 2) a new skill system is going to face exactly the same issues. How long before certain chassis get discounts on certain skill trees, or some skill trees come filled in with other mechs? Mark my words, it's the next logical step. PGI is making changes based on data they aren't sharing which leaves pilots in the dark as to how to avoid future changes, which is just a vicious cycle.

[Dimento Graven]

BWS2K, on 24 January 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

...our data...

...Considering the subsequent data...

...our internal data...

...as more data becomes available...

...the data...

Yeah you're right, and the more I think about it, the more I'm annoyed this data isn't generally available to us, the players.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 January 2017 - 12:45 PM.

[dario03]

Silas7, on 24 January 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

To me I'd bet that T1 players would be slower to adopt a new meta in an attempt to preserve the natural order they've become accustomed to. Maybe FW sees more Poptarts, I wouldn't know as I almost never play FW.

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

I think most T1 players would disagree with that characterization.

I think there is some level of truth to it. Well probably not so much about T1 being slower than others but it is entirely possible for T1 (and everybody) to take a while before incorporating other viable strats when those strats are not OP. I still maintain that right before it was nerfed into the ground poptarting had been nerfed enough to allow for other strats to work. However it got nerfed into the ground because those other viable strats (brawling, ERLL) was only about the level of poptarting, not clearly better. So even though you could run those other strats a lot of teams didn't because they were used to poptarting.

[BWS2K]

The thing is, in this instance, poptarting *is* the designed strategy for some mechs. What is a Shadow Cat good at, if not sniping at range with those high mounts and jumpjets? Folks who complain about the Poptart Problem should limit their salt to the mechs that aren't designed exclusively for such behavior. It's not difficult to understand the dynamic but it does seem like it gets worse at every opportunity.

[Kanil]

Dimento Graven, on 24 January 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

But we know the general MWO player gravitates towards 'the easy' (remember the hordes of KDK's, NTG's, etc.?).

If the Summoner was truly an easy 'mech to "OP", we'd absolutely see more of them on the field.

Fact is, we (or at least me) barely see 'em at all...

I'm thinking it's a bad/incomplete interpretation of whatever data PGI supposedly looked at.

The loyalty pods are locked behind a $80 paywall, and were on "sale" only for a limited time anyway. If you didn't get them then, you can't get them now. Furthermore, the sale period ended before they were introduced into the game, so nobody had a chance to see how good they were in game, and specifically purchase one because of it's usefulness.

Even if it was the most OP thing in the game, you still wouldn't see it a whole lot, because only so many people actually have it, and nobody else can get it.

[a gaijin]

Snowbluff, on 24 January 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

The Loyalty pods added high energy hardpoits to the side torsos. Combine that with arms that quirk PPC velocity stats, 2 PPCs, and a lot of heatsinks and you have a poptart.

Pop tarting is just another viable tactic but your statement makes it sound like some sort of crime.
And that's the wrong attitude.

nehebkau, on 24 January 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

They should have just nerfed the loyalty summoner pods into the ground and left the rest of it.

No offense meant towards you, nehebkau, but that is a terrible suggestion because
awarding some "loyalty rewards" to some good customers and then 2 months later essentially telling those customers to f*ck off cause the "customers who were unable to participate" are jealous/feel left out/are left out is bad for business.

On the other hand PGI also wants to cater to the weekly nickle & dime contributing folks to keep those pennies rolling in, so they listen to the "E-nip SMN OP PLZ NERF Noow" crowd.
And nerf all Summoners.

Theory time:
PGI looked at the numbers, saw that the amount of "hardcore Summoner only" types is niche/small enough to where the financial analyst said, "Yea, we can lose these customers and still see profits made through the weekly-customers-that-buy-in-small-amounts."

[dario03]

Star Commander Horse, on 24 January 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

Pop tarting is just another viable tactic but your statement makes it sound like some sort of crime.
And that's the wrong attitude.


No offense meant towards you, nehebkau, but that is a terrible suggestion because
awarding some "loyalty rewards" to some good customers and then 2 months later essentially telling those customers to f*ck off cause the "customers who were unable to participate" are jealous/feel left out/are left out is bad for business.

On the other hand PGI also wants to cater to the weekly nickle & dime contributing folks to keep those pennies rolling in, so they listen to the "E-nip SMN OP PLZ NERF Noow" crowd.
And nerf all Summoners.

Theory time:
PGI looked at the numbers, saw that the amount of "hardcore Summoner only" types is niche/small enough to where the financial analyst said, "Yea, we can lose these customers and still see profits made through the weekly-customers-that-buy-in-small-amounts."

They shouldn't have released the pods the way they did. They have said that the game won't be p2w but those pods are a clear upgrade to the arm mounted version. So they don't need to nerf it into the ground but they should balance them. pay2win is bad enough, payinaspecificwayataspecifictime2win is even worse.

[Hotthedd]

BWS2K, on 24 January 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

Oh yeah, the Loyalty one I can maybe see being an over-performer, for sure - but then, that's the point of a loyalty mech (to be better).

That would be the definition of "pay2win".
MC-only purchases should be different, but not outright better.

[BWS2K]

@ Hotthedd - hence the italicized 'maybe'. I don't mind if they make the actual rare or money-things capable of doing a little more. Pay-to-win isn't terrible in a measured use and I maintain that two high ERPPC mounts on a Summoner is not even close to game-breaking. It's still only a Summoner, lol. Nerfing after the fact though... that's lame.

[a gaijin]

dario03, on 24 January 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

They shouldn't have released the pods the way they did. They have said that the game won't be p2w but those pods are a clear upgrade to the arm mounted version. So they don't need to nerf it into the ground but they should balance them. pay2win is bad enough, payinaspecificwayataspecifictime2win is even worse.

You know what? They should just come out and proclaim it a pay-to-win game. Shikata ga nai.

I mean, if pay to win is good enough for real life, then why not MWO?


It worked for me

[BWS2K]

The thing is, even if we call it pay-to-win, it doesn't really change anything. The players with the most money will still need *skill*, which those without money will develop quicker as they dodge all the disoriented fire from the Payers. <3

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

They could just be leveling the field on mechs with high quirks now so that when they implement skill trees they won't have god tier quirks to start with and end up being incredibly OP. Could just be a bit of foresight, but without any transparency from PGI we just don't know.

[BWS2K]

Dakota1000, on 24 January 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

They could just be leveling the field on mechs with high quirks now so that when they implement skill trees they won't have god tier quirks to start with and end up being incredibly OP. Could just be a bit of foresight, but without any transparency from PGI we just don't know.

That's a decent point, though I assumed all quirks (except those rare ones that follow the mech) were being taken out at the same time. It's going to be hectic considering we get refunded for all the mods and XP spent.

So I was just playing a little with my OP SHC-P and imagining if PGI applied this same logic in another way: "Recent data over time suggests that players aren't performing optimally on HPG Manifold so we've tuned down the gravity and raised the temperature. We'll watch this and adjust as needed" or maybe "As far as maps go, the new Terra Therma map is under-performing despite its perceived popularity. We've reduced the visibility further to help this but will keep a close eye in the coming weeks." It doesn't make sense that way, so why is it different with the quirk passes?

#suspicious

[dario03]

Star Commander Horse, on 24 January 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

You know what? They should just come out and proclaim it a pay-to-win game. Shikata ga nai.

I mean, if pay to win is good enough for real life, then why not MWO?

It worked for me

I mean hey if they want to go full p2w then go ahead. I'm sure it will be great with the gold ammo and extra quirks for money. I mean I'll never know because I would be out of here the instant it started, but I'm sure plenty of others would have fun seeing who can win by throwing the most money at their monitors.

[a gaijin]

dario03, on 24 January 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

extra quirks for money

We actually have that right now and have had it since the beginning:
First you buy 25,000 MC for $99.00 and then you buy 6,500,000 C-Bills for 4,000 MC. That's about $16, right?
After that you can buy Radar Deprivation for every mech if you really wanted to.
Furthermore people can buy weapon range +10% modules and cooldown modules for all their mechs as well, either by grinding C-Bills, for coughing up 4,000 MC for every 6,500,000 C-Bills needed.
I would not be surprised at all to find out about folks out there who've paid $$ for extended range and cooldown modules for all their mechs, or all that they regularly use.
That sounds like 'extra quirks for money' to me.



edited for: oops typos

Edited by Star Commander Horse, 24 January 2017 - 11:10 PM.

[Kanil]

Star Commander Horse, on 24 January 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

... people can buy weapon range +10% modules and cooldown modules for all their mechs as well, either by grinding C-Bills...

That sounds like 'extra quirks for money' to me.

Except, of course, you already know you can buy them with C-Bills.