23 replies to this topic

[Dex Spero]

I've been trying to find the answer to a tech question but I've received conflicting answers from friends. I know there are people on this forum who can answer this:

Can an IS XL engine be destroyed by a critical hit to a side torso in the same way as a weapon or heat sink (i.e. before the torso's internal structure is destroyed), or do you have to destroy the internal structure to destroy the engine.

Originally I thought it could be destroyed by a critical hit just like a weapon, and so I was torso padding with DHS and items whenever possible. Then I found a forum thread (https://mwomercs.com...-a-brief-guide/) from 2012. It's an awesome thread but I'm not sure if it is up to date because in it the author says "Currently, [my bold and underline added] the critical hit system cannot incapacitate a player by destroying their engine. You must destroy the component that has the engine within it". Sounds to me like this was destined to change at some point but I don't know if it has. I recently heard more about torso padding and thought "yep, my engine can be crit through an open side torso, case solved", but then I read a tweet that sounded like this isn't true and so the case is still open.

I am going to state what I already know to save you time (you don't need to explain these things in your answer) and to save me time reading a bunch of responses I categorize as "answer adjacent" (responses that don't actually address the question, just topics related to the question).

What I know:
1) IS XL engines take up 3 critical slots in your side torsos
2) When the armor in your side torsos is gone, damage to that torso is applied to internal structure and potentially to items in the torso
3) Damaging items in this way is known as a "critical hit"
4) There are rules governing the probability of achieving critical hits and which items are hit; those rules involve base probabilities, ratios of slots (a 3 slot DHS is 3x more likely to be hit then a 1 slot SPL), the type of weapon used (LB10X vs. laser, etc). I am really not interested in answers that explain the basics of this to me; the link I included above leads to a great explanation already provided by Selfish.

What I am asking:
When a critical hit occurs in an exposed internal side torso, are the 3 critical slots occupied by an IS XL engine included in the potential items damaged, or are they only destroyed when the actual side torso is destroyed (i.e.internal structure reduced to zero)?

Why I am asking:
If a mech has a quirk bonus to the side torso internal structure, and you must destroy all the side torso internal structure in order to destroy the engine, then the XL engine is more viable then I previously thought on those mechs (depending of course on hit box geometry, etc). But if the XL engine is able to be hit as soon as your armor is gone, then you are playing the RNG game as soon as your armor is gone regardless of how big your internal structure quirk is.

I'm sure this is common knowledge and pretty basic, but since I keep hearing/finding conflicting answers I thought I'd post this and see what knowledge, evidence, reasoning and trolling I get back.

Thanks in advance! Pickled fish and yaks for everyone!

- Dex

Edited by Dex Spero, 25 January 2017 - 08:39 AM.

[Bombast]

Engines do not suffer critical hits.

[WolvesX]

^ What he/she said.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bombast, on 25 January 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Engines do not suffer critical hits.

Well, they technically do, it just has no impact on engine performance or allows for crit death.

[Dex Spero]

Bombast, on 25 January 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Engines do not suffer critical hits.

THANK YOU THANK YOU.

Pickled fish and 3 goats are on there way! (Yaks still unavailable).

[Bombast]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Well, they technically do, it just has no impact on engine performance or allows for crit death.

Sounds like they're not suffering to me.

Edited by Bombast, 25 January 2017 - 08:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bombast, on 25 January 2017 - 08:44 AM, said:

Sounds like they're not suffering to me.

No, but you'll still take 15% extra damage all the same.

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

No, but you'll still take 15% extra damage all the same.

And Crit pad

[Dex Spero]

Mcgral18, on 25 January 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

And Crit pad

but then what's the point of crit padding other then trying to get a DHS destroyed instead of a weapon? I've been loading my torsos with DHS even when there is nothing else in them and I have empty slots in the engine specifically because I thought I needed to decrease the chances the XL would be chosen in the critical hit lottery. On some builds I would rather my internal structure take 11.5 damage from an AC10 round then lose my heat sinks.

[Lostdragon]

Dex Spero, on 25 January 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

but then what's the point of crit padding other then trying to get a DHS destroyed instead of a weapon? I've been loading my torsos with DHS even when there is nothing else in them and I have empty slots in the engine specifically because I thought I needed to decrease the chances the XL would be chosen in the critical hit lottery. On some builds I would rather my internal structure take 11.5 damage from an AC10 round then lose my heat sinks.

He is saying the XL slots in STs crit pad and can absorb crits there instead of weapons or destructible equipment in that location.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dex Spero, on 25 January 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

but then what's the point of crit padding other then trying to get a DHS destroyed instead of a weapon?

That's the point, to avoid getting DHS or weapons destroyed.

[Jackal Noble]

Well, would you look at that...

[Tarogato]

In MWO, engines can receive crits just like most other items. They have 15 HP, and can be destroyed.

However, PGI decided (for good reason) that having your engine destroyed isn't fun, so they made it so that your mech's destruction is determined by loss of torsos, and not by engine crits. Thereby you can pretend that engine crits actually don't exist (even though they do help crit-padding other components you have in your torsos, such as ammo... and gauss rifles. )

[Mcgral18]

Dex Spero, on 25 January 2017 - 08:58 AM, said:

but then what's the point of crit padding other then trying to get a DHS destroyed instead of a weapon? I've been loading my torsos with DHS even when there is nothing else in them and I have empty slots in the engine specifically because I thought I needed to decrease the chances the XL would be chosen in the critical hit lottery. On some builds I would rather my internal structure take 11.5 damage from an AC10 round then lose my heat sinks.

You take the bonus damage no matter what, if a Crit is rolled. It can be done to an empty torso, as my testing with the 1500 HP PTS Atlas K found
His rear 64 HP (?) Ghost Torso could be destroyed with 3 AC20 rounds, and there would be anything to Crit in a Ghost Torso
Which means I got 2 Crits without anything to Crit

Throwing DHS in your engine, for lack of a better term, expands your CT Crit table
A filled XL400 would have 30 slots to Crit in the CT

[Dex Spero]

Lostdragon, on 25 January 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

He is saying the XL slots in STs crit pad and can absorb crits there instead of weapons or destructible equipment in that location.

OOOOOOO I hadn't thought of that! Awesome! Thanks
\

[GrimRiver]

XL engines themselves don't not suffer crits, but the ST's on the mech itself does which in turn makes the XL more vulnerable.

[Cabusha]

No, they are not vulnerable to crits. None of the engines are. They only die or take damage when the torso location housing them is destroyed.

And no, they can't crit pad. They take No Hits. The same with leg/arm/foot/hand actuators.

Edited by Cabusha, 25 January 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Cabusha, on 25 January 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

No, they are not vulnerable to crits. None of the engines are. They only die or take damage when the torso location housing them is destroyed.

And no, they can't crit pad. They take No Hits. The same with leg/arm/foot/hand actuators.

You are wrong

Simple as that



Here you see a Crit distribution, chart, notice what is available

And here is an engine:

-<Module faction="Clan,InnerSphere" CType="CEngineStats" name="Engine_Std_60" id="3210">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\StdEngine.dds" descTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_60_desc" nameTag="@Engine_Standard_Fusion_60"/>
<EngineStats movementHeatMultiplier="1.0" health="15" heatsinks="2" weight="-2.5" rating="60" sidesToDie="0" sideSlots="0" slots="6"/>
</Module>

Huh...HP? Why does it have Health if it cannot be Crit?!

[Dex Spero]

Tarogato, on 25 January 2017 - 09:42 AM, said:

In MWO, engines can receive crits just like most other items. They have 15 HP, and can be destroyed.

However, PGI decided (for good reason) that having your engine destroyed isn't fun, so they made it so that your mech's destruction is determined by loss of torsos, and not by engine crits. Thereby you can pretend that engine crits actually don't exist (even though they do help crit-padding other components you have in your torsos, such as ammo... and gauss rifles. )

Mcgral18, on 25 January 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

You take the bonus damage no matter what, if a Crit is rolled. It can be done to an empty torso, as my testing with the 1500 HP PTS Atlas K found
His rear 64 HP (?) Ghost Torso could be destroyed with 3 AC20 rounds, and there would be anything to Crit in a Ghost Torso
Which means I got 2 Crits without anything to Crit

Throwing DHS in your engine, for lack of a better term, expands your CT Crit table
A filled XL400 would have 30 slots to Crit in the CT

Cabusha, on 25 January 2017 - 03:22 PM, said:

No, they are not vulnerable to crits. None of the engines are. They only die or take damage when the torso location housing them is destroyed.

And no, they can't crit pad. They take No Hits. The same with leg/arm/foot/hand actuators.

We seem to have agreement on the main issue (the entire side torso must be destroyed for the engine to die) but some disagreement regarding crit padding and whether or not they can be hit. Evidence, links, rebuttals?

Afterwards: Thanks McGral18, your post appeared just as I was hitting the "Post" button.

Edited by Dex Spero, 25 January 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2017 - 08:43 AM, said:

Well, they technically do, it just has no impact on engine performance or allows for crit death.

This is correct, you can get engine crits but its a kin to getting your hand actuator crit, nothing happens really other then some dmg i think.


The game is coded so that the TORSO loss ONLY counts for death, Be it One or Two depending on the XL or none with a STD.

Edited by Revis Volek, 25 January 2017 - 03:33 PM.