47 replies to this topic

[MrMadguy]

Quote

Clan XL Design Notes: The balance dynamic between the Inner Sphere and Clan Factions is something under heavy evaluation, particularly as we approach a timeline advancement this summer. This adjustment to Clan XL cooling efficiency is a step in that process, making the loss of a Side Torso more impactful on the performance of Clan ‘Mechs.
There's been much discussion about this change since its original announcement in the January Roadmap, and we'd like to expand the explanation originally provided for this change.

First, it's critical to note that the penalty for Side Torso destruction only applies to the base Engine Heat Sinks and any Engine-mounted Heat Sinks. External Heat Sinks will continue operating normally in the event of a Side Torso destruction until either their component in which they are mounted is destroyed, or the Heat Sink itself is destroyed from a critical hit.

Second, we want to stress that we are not solely looking at Engine balance as only being a matter of IS XL versus Clan XL, but between all Engine options available to the player. This includes Standard Engines and smaller Engine sizes of both types. There's been much discussion about the option of IS XL Engines being provided the same benefits as Clan XL Engines, but in light of the other benefits provided by larger Engine sizes and the massive offensive boost XL Engines can facilitate, such a change is not currently conducive to appropriate XL versus Standard Engine balance.

We look forward to your feedback on these changes, but we encourage you to keep in mind that this should not be evaluated strictly as an XL Engine issue, but an overall balance question between Engines of all types.

As mentioned in the previous Roadmap, we would also like to reiterate that we have identified some larger balance points that we will be approaching after the release of the new Skill system in February.

Am I the only one, who think, that it's BS? I mean, it sounds, like "Being able to customize your engine > being able to avoid ST one-shot death". Yeah? It would be true, if Clan 'Mechs would be equipped with smaller engines by default. But look at every clan 'Mech! They're equipped with big optimal engines by default! Even bigger engines wouldn't provide any advantage, as from some point bigger engines become just a waste of tonnage and gimp your firepower too much. So, what do we have?

IS:
STD engine, that gimps your firepower and speed too much
XL engine, that causes instant ST one-shot death problems

Clan:
Big optimal XL engine, that allows you to have higher speed, equip more heatsinks and doesn't have instant ST one-shot death problems

What is obviously better? We can even compare 'Mechs one by one. Jagermech vs Hellbringer? Cataphract vs Summoner? Atlas vs Dire Wolf? King Crab vs Kodiak? Battlemaster vs Warhawk? Don't make me laugh.

Edited by MrMadguy, 25 January 2017 - 09:58 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

You are not the only one, now please post in one of the ten billion threads we already have on this g*ddamned topic already. Your opinion is noted, but not worth a whole thread unto itself seeing as it contributes absolutely nothing new to the conversation.

[FupDup]

MrMadguy, on 25 January 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

They're equipped with big optimal engines by default!

I'm gonna have to point out that a fair number of Clan gundams have low engines. Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, and especially the Dire Whale... Nova and Huntsman are basically "average" engine size or a little below average (I would never consider using a medium mech that goes less than 90 KPH even in the pre-Clan days, NVA and HMN only get away with it because of Clan tech).

Also note that the Linebacker's engine is arguably too big and a bit inefficient in terms of what it weighs compared to what you get out of it (diminishing returns kick in past 350 rating). Gargoyle's engine is definitely too big.

But yes, Clan XL is still the best engine type available. But that's a completely different discussion from "Omnimechs always have the most optimal engine rating by default."

Edited by FupDup, 25 January 2017 - 10:03 PM.

[MrMadguy]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

You are not the only one, now please post in one of the ten billion threads we already have on this g*ddamned topic already. Your opinion is noted, but not worth a whole thread unto itself seeing as it contributes absolutely nothing new to the conversation.

Previous threads were about IS vs Clan XL balance itself. But I haven't seen any discussion of devs answer to this problem, since this patch notes were released.

[MacClearly]

Yeah this thread should be deleted. Your reasoning doesn't make it new content.

[Aiden Skye]

Barely 24 hours after the nerf and here we have another thread wanting more.

[MrMadguy]

FupDup, on 25 January 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

I'm gonna have to point out that a fair number of Clan gundams have low engines. Mist Lynx, Kit Fox, Adder, and especially the Dire Whale... Nova and Huntsman are basically "average" engine size or a little below average (I would never consider using a medium mech that goes less than 90 KPH even in the pre-Clan days, NVA and HMN only get away with it because of Clan tech).

Also note that the Linebacker's engine is arguably too big and a bit inefficient in terms of what it weighs compared to what you get out of it (diminishing returns kick in past 350 rating). Gargoyle's engine is definitely too big.

But yes, Clan XL is still the best engine type available. But that's a completely different discussion from "Omnimechs always have the most optimal engine rating by default."

Clan 'Mech have overall advantage of having more hardpoints, being able to equip more heatsinks and being able to have more firepower as the result. Plus range advantage in most cases. And by default almost all IS 'Mechs come with STD engines, that have to be replaced by XL in order bring them even relatively close to Clan counterparts. But XL instantly brings ST one-shot problem, especially for heavier 'Mechs. For example it turns IS Assaults into useless pieces of crap, cuz with STD engine your firepower is too gimped and with XL engine - once you ST armor is stripped, you're dead almost instantly.

[Y E O N N E]

MrMadguy, on 25 January 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

Previous threads were about IS vs Clan XL balance itself. But I haven't seen any discussion of devs answer to this problem, since this patch notes were released.

Here you go.

[Johnny Z]

What nerf? You mean legged speed on side torso loss for cxl? Awesome.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 January 2017 - 10:17 PM.

[FupDup]

MrMadguy, on 25 January 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

Clan 'Mech have overall advantage of having more hardpoints, being able to equip more heatsinks and being able to have more firepower as the result. Plus range advantage in most cases. And by default almost all IS 'Mechs come with STD engines, that have to be replaced by XL in order bring them even relatively close to Clan counterparts. But XL instantly brings ST one-shot problem, especially for heavier 'Mechs. For example it turns IS Assaults into useless pieces of crap, cuz with STD engine your firepower is too gimped and with XL engine - once you ST armor is stripped, you're dead almost instantly.

Those points are irrelevant to stock engine sizes on Clan Omnimechs.

The IS XL/STD being bad doesn't change the fact that the Gargoyle's engine is too big and the Adder's engine is too small, etc.

[MrMadguy]

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2017 - 10:16 PM, said:

What nerf? You mean legged speed on side torso loss for cxl? Awesome.

ST loss penalties were doubled, as I know. But even loss of 40% heatsinks isn't as bad, as instant engine one-shot death is.

Don't get me wrong. I have both IS and Clan 'Mechs and I'm not IS-biased, as I don't play FP. I just have both Atlases and DireWolfs for example and I just see, how crappy Atlas is in comparison with DireWolf or Kodiak. Why? Because in IS 'Mechs I CONSTANTLY suffer from instant ST one-shots. CONSTANTLY. When your ST armor is stripped on Clan 'Mech - you still can live for some time. But once your ST armor is stripped on IS 'Mech... Just one scratch dmg to your ST - BAM, one shot.

Edited by MrMadguy, 25 January 2017 - 10:29 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Clantech now has ability to change engines on a few mechs and more to come I guess. So this isn't such a big argument like before.

This is why its such a good idea to balance both the standard AND isxl combined with the cxl.

Edited by Johnny Z, 25 January 2017 - 10:26 PM.

[MrMadguy]

I heard, that engine crits aren't possible, but it feels, that they're real. You know, how it feels? Same, as then you play AC/20 or Gauss Atlas. Once you ST armor is stripped - your primary weapon is lost almost instantly. Same happens with XL engines. Just BAM! No loss of any internals, heatsinks, weapons - just instant death. When you play STD engine/Clan 'Mech - it isn't felt like that. Never. Everything, works as intended - you can play half of match with ST armor stripped. Players, who know me, know, that I almost always equip XL engine on all IS 'Mechs, cuz I don't want to gimp already gimped enough performance even more (yeah, some sort of protest), and they abuse this fact.

Edited by MrMadguy, 25 January 2017 - 10:41 PM.

[GoatHILL]

3 crits and the engine is dead that's it. There is no "fix" it is Battletech.

And no I'm not a lore nut but I don't want plasma rifles in my WWII games either.

[Mcgral18]

GoatHILL, on 25 January 2017 - 11:58 PM, said:

3 crits and the engine is dead that's it. There is no "fix" it is Battletech.

And no I'm not a lore nut but I don't want plasma rifles in my WWII games either.

Whew, good thing we're playing Shooty Stompy Robots, without any engine Crits
We can go ahead and change that 'sidesToDie' attribute

[MechaBattler]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

You are not the only one, now please post in one of the ten billion threads we already have on this g*ddamned topic already. Your opinion is noted, but not worth a whole thread unto itself seeing as it contributes absolutely nothing new to the conversation.

Because this way it gets more exposure instead of just being one comment in a sea of arguing voices. And it's probably going to keep on happening until they fix the problem.

Edited by MechaBattler, 26 January 2017 - 12:13 AM.

[Lily from animove]

MrMadguy, on 25 January 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

Am I the only one, who think, that it's BS? I mean, it sounds, like "Being able to customize your engine > being able to avoid ST one-shot death". Yeah? It would be true, if Clan 'Mechs would be equipped with smaller engines by default. But look at every clan 'Mech! They're equipped with big optimal engines by default! Even bigger engines wouldn't provide any advantage, as from some point bigger engines become just a waste of tonnage and gimp your firepower too much. So, what do we have?


Clan:
Big optimal XL engine, that allows you to have higher speed, equip more heatsinks and doesn't have instant ST one-shot death problems

is it? tell that the omnimechs with weird engine sizes.

All those people and their crusade topics of unobjectivity is the reason why PGI makes derp nerfs and buffs because they start to believe the nonsense people say and this leads to just more imbalancing changes instead of balance.

It's annoying and a waste of time leading nowhere.

MechaBattler, on 26 January 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Because this way it gets more exposure instead of just being one comment in a sea of arguing voices. And it's probably going to keep on happening until they fix the problem.

also broken logic, you could just bring back the other threat to the top. Futher. would everyone think like this we had a flood of all threds about all topics and your threads would die even more. Stop catering weird ideas, especially whent hey are broken and use the Forum properly.

Edited by Lily from animove, 26 January 2017 - 01:24 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Some IS mechs are quirked so hard that it takes same amout of damage to kill their one torso that it takes to take out both STs on a clan mech of the same tonnage. With the newest idiotic increase of heat penalties due to the loss of cXL ST your clan XL mech is as good as useless as soon as ST is blown off. And unlike your oh so poor IS mechs, most clan ones can't switch XL to a STD, nor even change the engine rating.

So please, just get a clue already.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

And unlike your oh so poor IS mechs, most clan ones can't switch XL to a STD, nor even change the engine rating.

Name an OMNI that a player would take the same STD rating enging as the cXL while still having the ability to change hardpoints (omnipods)? For what, to avoid the heat/movement penalties? Almost every IS pilot would take the cXL with either its previous or current penalties than to have to deal with ST death. For a few mechs it would not matter due to their low engine cap.

And quirks, be it weapon, IS or Armor, gets changed at the drop of a soap bar while the faucet is just in the right location...

And no, I do not agree with PGI decision to increase cXL heat penalty from 20% to 40%. I would like to have seen isXL survive loss of a side torso with 20% movement/30-35% heat and Clan at 20% movement/25-30% heat.

As for the crits in TT, that was in a boardgame where the only fusion engine was the STD w/6 slots, using dice for hit/miss and location probabilities, not a FPS where the player has complete control over hit and location. The cXL and isXL only increased the odds of an engine crits.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 January 2017 - 01:39 PM.

[nehebkau]

W A R K H A N, on 25 January 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

Barely 24 hours after the nerf and here we have another thread wanting more.

Thats because the nerf was a STUPID move on PGI's part. It is akin to sawing off the left arm to prevent an infection in the right arm from spreading there.


Clan XL engine didn't need a nerf, IS XL engine needed to be buffed.

Thought experiment: How awesome would the Kodiak 3 be if it was forced to use a STD. engine or an IS XL engine?

Edited by nehebkau, 26 January 2017 - 01:42 PM.