47 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

nehebkau, on 26 January 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

Thats because the nerf was a STUPID move on PGI's part. It is akin to sawing off the left arm to prevent an infection in the right arm from spreading there.


Clan XL engine didn't need a nerf, IS XL engine needed to be buffed.

Thought experiment: How awesome would the Kodiak 3 be if it was forced to use a STD. engine or an IS XL engine?

Someone will pipe in 4xGR or 2xGR 2xERPC, or even the original 4xUAC10. All of those builds would be slow as piss though using a STD and running around 52KPH tweaked. It would be left behind on nascaring with the Dires, waiting to be picked apart. For FP it would be left to the back of the push, which could be good @ first but it too would be left behind.

The Kodiak, due to both its high mounted and type of hardpoints would only really be affected due to speed. It sorta falls in the same boat as IS high mounted energy hardpoints, battlemasters, t-bolts, etc, said mechs can take STD, be slower without worrying about dying to lost ST. It is the rest of the crop that would or does suffer.

Edit - ouchie on the 40% penalty, especially if Clan mech is not equipped with many external DHS or the ST loss had most of those DHS.. hehehe..

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 January 2017 - 04:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 January 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

Some IS mechs are quirked so hard that it takes same amout of damage to kill their one torso that it takes to take out both STs on a clan mech of the same tonnage.

I'm pretty sure the only one that can even remotely qualify for that is the HBK-4SP and even then I think it still comes up short, please, keep exaggerating.....

Basically to reach that amount of health in a single torso, it would have to have 4x the normal structure.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 January 2017 - 03:56 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the only one that can even remotely qualify for that is the HBK-4SP and even then I think it still comes up short, please, keep exaggerating.....

Basically to reach that amount of health in a single torso, it would have to have 4x the normal structure.

Gah, you beat me to calling him on that bull. Was waiting to get home to check Snafets before doing so.

[nehebkau]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 January 2017 - 03:46 AM, said:

Some IS mechs are quirked so hard that it takes same amout of damage to kill their one torso that it takes to take out both STs on a clan mech of the same tonnage.
So please, just get a clue already.

Way to Donald Trump the discussion. We don't like gaslighting here. How about you take your "Alternate Facts" and go post in K-town.

IS XL engines need to be buffed OR Clan battlemechs need to use IS XL engines.... plain and simple. (I would be happier with the former but OK with the latter)

Edited by nehebkau, 26 January 2017 - 05:29 PM.

[Mystere]

Johnny Z, on 25 January 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

Clantech now has ability to change engines on a few mechs and more to come I guess. So this isn't such a big argument like before.

Well, my Omnimechs can't and I don't own any Clan Battlemechs!

Edited by Mystere, 26 January 2017 - 07:25 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Mystere, on 26 January 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

Well, my Omnimechs can't and I don't own any Clan Battlemechs!

Just like the weaker Inner Sphere mechs I guess the weaker Clan mechs get quirks.

[Jackal Noble]

Linebacker wants a smaller engine.
Warhawk wants to drop some heat sinks.
Mist lynx wants to drop that active probe hardwired into it
Summoner wants some endo.
All omnis want to be able to switch different pods without some sort of catch 22.
But they can't
And that's the way it is.

Edited by JackalBeast, 26 January 2017 - 10:23 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the only one that can even remotely qualify for that is the HBK-4SP and even then I think it still comes up short, please, keep exaggerating.....

Basically to reach that amount of health in a single torso, it would have to have 4x the normal structure.

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Gah, you beat me to calling him on that bull. Was waiting to get home to check Snafets before doing so.

nehebkau, on 26 January 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

Way to Donald Trump the discussion. We don't like gaslighting here. How about you take your "Alternate Facts" and go post in K-town.

IS XL engines need to be buffed OR Clan battlemechs need to use IS XL engines.... plain and simple. (I would be happier with the former but OK with the latter)

Examples ...

Spider-5K, 14 ST structure + 10 ST bonus structure = 24 ST
vs
ACH, 14 ST structure

24/14 ~ 1.7 IS/Clan ratio

Raven-H, 16 ST + 12 bonus ST = 28 ST
vs
Jenner-IIC, 16 ST

28/16 ~ 1.75 IS/Clan ratio

ENF-4P, 24 ST + 14 ST bonus = 38 ST
vs
Huntsman, 24 ST

38/24 ~ 1.6 IS/Clan ratio

HBK-4SP (the infamous), 24 ST + 24 ST bonus = 48 ST
vs
HBK-IIC, 24 ST

48/24 ~ 2.0 IS/Clan ratio

And so on and so forth ...

Not to mention additional armor quirks and double the health on arms on quite a few mechs (arms that actually protect STs unlike those on clan mechs). All in all it is actually easier to kill off both STs on a clanner than it is to kill off one ST on an IS mech with big XL.

Anyway, whatever. All the idiots crying about balance can keep doing so. You'll end up with all mechs being the same size, the same shape, the same tonnage and having the exact same equipment as well. Then you'll be enjoying your glorious balance in what probably would be the most fun mech game ever made.

[Tarl Cabot]

(chuckles) Quirked hard? You do understand that structural/armor quirks are due to geometry more than anything else?

And quirks come and go. Get that hunchie "outperforming" other IS mechs and those structural quirks are lobbed off.

Orion 32+ 16=48
Orion IIC 32+ 12=44

[PhoenixFire55]

Tarl Cabot, on 27 January 2017 - 05:36 AM, said:

(chuckles) Quirked hard? You do understand that structural/armor quirks are due to geometry more than anything else?

Yeah right. Exactly which part of IS HBK geomerty is worse than clan HBK geometry? Same for Spider vs ACH if you please ...

If you can't live with the fact that you die losing an XL torso in your IS mech then stop using XL engines.

On the contrary clan mechs can't stop using XL engines. I would love to be able to use Std. engine instead of an XL one in many clan chassis, would love to be able to downgrade/upgrade engine rating and add ES/FF on demand, would love to be able to get rid of half a dozen useless JJs, but alas.

Clans are superior at long range, IS is superior at short range, there is plenty balance as is. If you think IS XLs are too vulnerable then stop staring at Kodiaks with your jaw at ankle level.

[nehebkau]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 January 2017 - 06:07 AM, said:

On the contrary clan mechs can't stop using XL engines. I would love to be able to use Std. engine instead of an XL one in many clan chassis, would love to be able to downgrade/upgrade engine rating and add ES/FF on demand, would love to be able to get rid of half a dozen useless JJs, but alas.

You realize that, UNTIL clan battlemechs came out most in the Inner Sphere were ok with the differences because of all the locked components that clans had. Now that clans have battlemechs (NOT OMNI-MECHS) those differences are moot. A Huncback IIC and an IS Hunchback are virtually the same except that a hunchback IIC can double the alpha of an Innersphere Hunchback. You can LBX40/AC40 an Hunchback IIIC or Dual-Gauss a IIC, you can't do that in an Innersphere Hunchback.

You see these 25% increase in structure quirks and get all wet with envy yet choose to ignore that you are able to do 100%++ more alpha damage than your counterparts. You compare a Huginn with a 17 alpha to a Jenner IIC with a 48 alpha, A spider 5K with a 9 alpha to a Cheetah with a 42 alpha, an enforcer with a 13 alpha to a Huntsman with a 70 alpha. (When you put it in those terms you would need 200% increase in structure for IS to have any real effect)

I know you are purposely ignoring that difference because doing so would really illustrate how minuscule structure quirks are compared to the difference in damage output. But hey, its a free world you can choose to live in the land of make-believe if you wish.

Edited by nehebkau, 27 January 2017 - 06:30 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

nehebkau, on 27 January 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

an enforcer with a 13 alpha to a Huntsman with a 70 alpha.

At what point, does one take a 50 ton mech and rationalize using a 13 point alpha? That right there has nothing to do with Clan vs IS balance. I too can compare a 7 point alpha huntsman vs a enforcer 4R 15% duration, 10% range (20% if using LLs)
ENF-4R

while being farrrr more heat efficient than the huntsman could dream. Full energy variants, while possible don't pan out nearly as well on the huntsman as the enforcer. Huntsman does mix builds efficiently as it should, and enforcer does energy and ballistic very well, esp with generous quirks. but MY GOD MAN, old tired argument is old and tired, and super skewed and needs to stop. It's bad juju.

Further, that 70 point alpha is a cheesy build, to me at least, and is more or less limited to ~270-300 meters. Not a fan of srms, especially Clan ones.

Edited by JackalBeast, 27 January 2017 - 07:18 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

nehebkau, on 27 January 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

You realize that, UNTIL clan battlemechs came out most in the Inner Sphere were ok with the differences because of all the locked components that clans had. Now that clans have battlemechs (NOT OMNI-MECHS) those differences are moot. A Huncback IIC and an IS Hunchback are virtually the same except that a hunchback IIC can double the alpha of an Innersphere Hunchback. You can LBX40/AC40 an Hunchback IIIC or Dual-Gauss a IIC, you can't do that in an Innersphere Hunchback.

Than perhaps you shouldn't be fubaring the existing balance between clan omnimechs and IS battlemechs and address clan battlemechs instead? Or finally admit that you can't balance something that isn't supposed to be balanced in the first place?

nehebkau, on 27 January 2017 - 06:27 AM, said:

You see these 25% increase in structure quirks and get all wet with envy yet choose to ignore that you are able to do 100%++ more alpha damage than your counterparts. You compare a Huginn with a 17 alpha to a Jenner IIC with a 48 alpha, A spider 5K with a 9 alpha to a Cheetah with a 42 alpha, an enforcer with a 13 alpha to a Huntsman with a 70 alpha. (When you put it in those terms you would need 200% increase in structure for IS to have any real effect)

I know you are purposely ignoring that difference because doing so would really illustrate how minuscule structure quirks are compared to the difference in damage output. But hey, its a free world you can choose to live in the land of make-believe if you wish.

Sure sure. 54 damage with 1.2s duration with 2 alphas at most on your usual vomit TBR vs 53 damage with 0.7-0.9s duration with 4 alphas at least on your usual Warhammer. Like totally 100%++ more alpha. I guess you would know more about make-believe land than I do indeed.

If they put a fkn "BattleTech" game in their fkn logo then make it an actual BT game. With IS balanced vs clans by larger number of cheaper mechs. Because otherwise all balancing attempts are just useless broken bandaids leading to a trainwreck we are having. Or at least be honest and name it "MechWarrior Online, A Sh!tty Generic robot game".

[nehebkau]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 January 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

If they put a fkn "BattleTech" game in their fkn logo then make it an actual BT game. With IS balanced vs clans by larger number of cheaper mechs. Because otherwise all balancing attempts are just useless broken bandaids leading to a trainwreck we are having. Or at least be honest and name it "MechWarrior Online, A Sh!tty Generic robot game".

This is something we can agree on. There is no way to balance clans and IS when clans are given far more advanced technology. MWO should have just gone the mercenary route, and abandon the whole clan and IS premise, letting people choose whatever mech they want, in FW, and then it's your own damn fault for picking the LRM-boat catapult.

[BluefireMW]

W A R K H A N, on 25 January 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

Barely 24 hours after the nerf and here we have another thread wanting more.

That because they want the same engines in there mechs, but they want to have the quirks that counter there drawback in place, too. Nothing is worth this kind of thing, if the torso is not shot through and is working, then both mechs are with a engine which weighs half of a Standard engine and the clan mech was not able to change the engine size. Normally this would be countered through a fully changeable loadout, but this is not possible in here.
And there are clan omni mechs without xl engines, like the stooping hawk.

Edited by BluefireMW, 27 January 2017 - 07:34 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Me wants stooping hawk

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 January 2017 - 01:15 AM, said:

48/24 ~ 2.0 IS/Clan ratio

Yes, because internal structure is the ONLY health for sections

Care to cherry pick more useless statistics?

The funniest part is how you picked the Clan mechs that are all superior compared to those IS mechs DESPITE not having all the structure.

PhoenixFire55, on 27 January 2017 - 07:08 AM, said:

Sure sure. 54 damage with 1.2s duration with 2 alphas at most on your usual vomit TBR vs 53 damage with 0.7-0.9s duration with 4 alphas at least on your usual Warhammer.

Calling Yeonne, we need a reference to your post comparing the old BK to the laser vomit Timber.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 January 2017 - 07:48 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 January 2017 - 01:15 AM, said:

Not to mention additional armor quirks and double the health on arms on quite a few mechs (arms that actually protect STs unlike those on clan mechs). All in all it is actually easier to kill off both STs on a clanner than it is to kill off one ST on an IS mech with big XL.

Sure, if you can't aim and have zero fire discipline.

Only the HBK-4SP measured up to your 2.0 claim, so I guess technically you were right...once. That said, getting to 2.0x using structure is not actually worth 2.0x the stock hit-points because crit rolls reduce total effective pool.

If it actually did take 2.0xST for more 'Mechs running isXL then the game would be better off. Probably a bit OP for the IS, but a smaller gap than what there is now.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Lily from animove, on 26 January 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

is it? tell that the omnimechs with weird engine sizes.

All those people and their crusade topics of unobjectivity is the reason why PGI makes derp nerfs and buffs because they start to believe the nonsense people say and this leads to just more imbalancing changes instead of balance.

It's annoying and a waste of time leading nowhere.




also broken logic, you could just bring back the other threat to the top. Futher. would everyone think like this we had a flood of all threds about all topics and your threads would die even more. Stop catering weird ideas, especially whent hey are broken and use the Forum properly.

Exactly zero point zero Omnimechs have "weird" engine sizes.... those are all THE normal engine sizes, it is the 99.9% of other Mechs that have "weird" engine sizes. At least half if not higher of the Engines used in MWO are NOT even in existence in Battletech... they are not even produced even if they are theoretical possibilities, that is all they are pure theoretical exercises. Because a mech has to have even MP for the Table Top... so a 90T mech uses a 90/180/270/360 to get a Walking Movement of 1/2/3/4, using a bigger engine than that is 100% wasted tonnage because it does not translate into a faster speed profile.

Just as an FYI

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 January 2017 - 07:50 AM, said:

Calling Yeonne, we need a reference to your post comparing the old BK to the laser vomit Timber.

One post coming right up:

Spoiler

Yeonne Greene, on 19 December 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

You are not very good at this.

The 24 DHS the Clan build (assuming TBR with one S-torso) gives you has a heat-cap of 85.2. One shot from your alpha puts you at 51.6%.

The 20 DHS the IS 'Mech gives you (assuming BK) has a heat-cap of 78.0. One shot from your alpha puts you at 48.7%

Golly jee, near-enough-as-makes-no-difference! But wait, sonny, there's more!

The dissipation on the Clan build gives you a rate of 4.71. It takes 9.3 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

The dissipation on the IS build gives you a rate of 3.85. It takes 9.4 seconds to dissipate the heat completely.

Hmmm, pretty close again! But we're not through yet!

If we drop the S-torso on the TBR and run no JJs (the BK doesn't get JJs anyway), we can fit in another two DHS, giving us a cap of 88.8 and a dissipation of 5.06. We now hit 49.5% on the first shot and get rid of the heat in 8.7 seconds...a whole 0.7 seconds faster.

And on top of having nearly identical soak ratio and dissipation rates, you get to start dealing your full damage a whole 150+ meters sooner! Because targeting computers and ER lasers! Yeah!

Now how about a build that actually competes in the same bracket, buddy?

7x cMPL
56 Damage
46.8 Heat

Same 26 DHS. 52.7% after firing, takes 9.2 seconds to dissipate completely. On top of this, you are dishing out 65.9 damage per second over the course of your burn, which is more than the 57.8 you get from your named IS build, and also more than the 64.4 you get from the 3xLPL+5xML build you would find on the BK in a real match. A BK which, by the way, runs 19 DHS, so it soaks to 53% in one shot and has to wait 10.6 seconds to fire again!


And you people wonder why the IS get heat gen quirks. It's because not only do they actually run just as hot for less damage and less range, they have to be able to fire more once they finally get in range to compensate for the damage they received on the way in.

This schooling session is now closed. Next time, do your homework before mouthing off.

Edit: Oh, and the BK has its hard-points at belly-button level. Enjoy!