181 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

What team is primarily using Locusts over Cheetahs except for this new league where tonnage matters (and even then it is usually to squeeze a Kodiak or double up on Night Gyrs)?

Eh? EON, BSMC, RJF, 9STS ... pretty much all top EU teams. Can't say I really care what NA side uses tbh. Locust is a best fighting light, ACH is better for scouting purposes for obvious reasons, every team makes that choice.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Where are teams brawling constantly to where they use Griffins more than HBK-IICs?

No team is brawling constantly because there aren't any brawling maps left. But thats the issue with brawling and maps, not mechs. And if you do go brawling you bring mostly IS mechs, not clans.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

What team is even bothering with Warhammers anymore especially after the Night Gyr is publicly available.

I doubt many will given the recent Warhammer nerfs, they are most likely to be replaced but not necesserily by NightGyrs as cUAC nerfs made them extremely unreliable. Regardless, 3D > TBR > KNT > WHM > NTG > ... meta keeps shifting, for all we know next season is gonna see some uber new IS mech.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Whatever meta you think we are under is behind (apparently way behind considering the MWOWC was dominated by mostly Clan tech).

Such as? ... Old unnerfed KDK-3 and Jenners-IIC? MWOWC client was more than a half-year old when MWOWC finals were played. And we saw plenty IS mechs used both during it and after it. Since MRBC banned hero mechs from use we will see less of em (BW, Sleipnir, Oxide, IV etc.), but again, nothing to do with mechs themselves.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Yes, before the Kodiak forced the meta to adapt to its will, the IS did have the advantage slightly (you are missing the fact the Jenner IIC somewhat replaced the Oxide though)

The SRM one never really did. And the SPL one is a mech for entirely different purposes compared to both SRM-IIC and Oxide, and they all suck at scouting compared to ACH and Spider, etc. It all depends on what you are looking for in your mech.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

but that died with the Kodiak. Since then the only really relevant IS stuff has been Griffins for brawl drops and occasionally using a Whammy or Grasshopper.

Only in NA it seems, but then again you guys are known for your long range hiding ... I mean, tactical fighting ... lol Regional flavour has always been present tbh, ever since 2nd MRBC season.

[PhoenixFire55]

Tiantara, on 30 January 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

What you choose?

I choose to end our discussion because obviously you aren't even reading my posts.

[PhoenixFire55]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

What happens in the future is irrelevant, what we know now is that ever since the Kodiak dropped Clan tech has been the dominant tech in comp, especially after several competitive IS chassis have been continually nerfed (with rescale and various quirk nerfs) such that very few are even relevant in comp.

Ok, but then what happened in the past is also irrelevant, and in the past we saw about equal amount of IS/clan mechs used in comp. Once again, bring back some old brawly maps and you might actually see the dominance of IS mechs. Regardless, all balancing that is being done or was done is based on nothing but whim, if you guys are fine with that trend continuing then sure, nerf clan XL or buff IS XL or whatever. The house of cards bandaids is getting taller and taller.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Eh? EON, BSMC, RJF, 9STS ... pretty much all top EU teams. Can't say I really care what NA side uses tbh.

Cool, you like EU teams better, that doesn't mean you can just hand-wave NA away nor does it mean EU is more skilled either.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

No team is brawling constantly because there aren't any brawling maps left. But thats the issue with brawling and maps, not mechs. And if you do go brawling you bring mostly IS mechs, not clans.

You only bring IS for mediums and assaults if you are brawling, heavies are still dominated by Clan stuff (Srmmoners and Splat timbies) while the lights are kind of a tossup (kiss of death Jenner IIC vs Oxide).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

I doubt many will given the recent Warhammer nerfs, they are most likely to be replaced but not necesserily by NightGyrs as cUAC nerfs made them extremely unreliable.

Who uses the Night Gyrs for just dakka? Gauss/PPC is perfect for them and they are typically used in a place you would've used a Whammy since they are more durable and sustainable.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Such as? ... Old unnerfed KDK-3 and Jenners-IIC? MWOWC client was more than a half-year old when MWOWC finals were played. And we saw plenty IS mechs used both during it and after it.

The KDK-3 is still around, let's not pretend like the nerfs knocked it off the top assault spot. The Jenner IIC was nerfed, but so was the Oxide so that ended up a wash (and brought in the Cheetah). That said, sure, you saw IS mechs on bad teams, but a majority were Clan. Mediums on top teams was almost always the Hunchback IIC in some form, assaults were Kodiaks in some form, and the lights and heavies were a mix. In other words, Clan stuff was used more often than IS.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

The SRM one never really did.

It did once people started to entertain the idea of the kiss of death Jenner (6 SRM6), it may have been gimmicky but the potential of it to one-shot could instantly sway the brawl. Now both are meh and most people don't care about them anyway given the stature of paywalled mechs in comp.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Only in NA it seems, but then again you guys are known for your long range hiding

Maybe EmP, SJR, and 228, but AS and Lords were not known for really long range control strats during their last incarnations.....

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

long range hiding ... I mean, tactical fighting

Sounds like you are salty for not understanding mechanics of map control....

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Ok, but then what happened in the past is also irrelevant, and in the past we saw about equal amount of IS/clan mechs used in comp.

True, and given that, only what is going on currently is what matters, and things are still predominantly in clan favor.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

Once again, bring back some old brawly maps and you might actually see the dominance of IS mechs.

You would see a mix, just like before, especially with the addition of the Huntsman (if you open up hero restrictions that is).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:58 AM, said:

The house of cards bandaids is getting taller and taller.

Actually, buffing/nerfing engines is meant to replace haphazard quirks that are meant to bridge the divide, so the house of bandaids is actually shortening, but I know that doesn't fit your rhetoric so of course you wouldn't say that.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 January 2017 - 11:08 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Eh? EON, BSMC, RJF, 9STS ... pretty much all top EU teams. Can't say I really care what NA side uses tbh.

You should, since NA plays more games and susses out the optimal play patterns faster and more thoroughly.

[PhoenixFire55]

Bombast, on 30 January 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

3 out of every 4 mechs that showed up in the 2016 Tournament Final were Clan. Five Clan chassis were used - Only 2 Inner Sphere Chassis made it.

I really wouldn't use the competitive scene to claim both sides are viable.

Oh dear, another one with 2016 World tournament that was run on a 7 months old client ...

[Bombast]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Oh dear, another one with 2016 World tournament that was run on a 7 months old client ...

You're the one that brought up competitive teams, and I'm the one saying that doesn't support your position. Make up your mind, are you for or against using those stats? You can't have it both ways.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 11:07 AM, said:

Oh dear, another one with 2016 World tournament that was run on a 7 months old client ...

They are using that example because most of the IS mechs got nerfed after the rescale meaning that was when they were at their best competition.

[Andi Nagasia]

we have to ask our selves is the KDK dominating because its a Clan mech or is it because of its Mounts?
if you put a MAL(4UAC5 +4ML(STD325) vs a KDK(4UAC5 +4ML(STD365) both going the same speed,
which mech would win in a fire fight?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Andi Nagasia, on 30 January 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

we have to ask our selves is the KDK dominating because its a Clan mech or is it because of its Mounts?

It is both, because it can run an XL and side torso Gauss safely and it also has good mounts.

Andi Nagasia, on 30 January 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

if you put a MAL(4UAC5 +4ML(STD325) vs a KDK(4UAC5 +4ML(STD365) both going the same speed,
which mech would win in a fire fight?

That's a bad comparison because they aren't using the same tonnage of weapons and you aren't using the advantage of Clan XL.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 January 2017 - 11:16 AM.

[Deathlike]

The Mauler didn't need the nerf when the Kodiak was around (I forget if the rescaling happened first or the Kodiak, I figure it's the latter).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

The Mauler didn't need the nerf when the Kodiak was around (I forget if the rescaling happened first or the Kodiak, I figure it's the latter).

Rescaling happened after the Kodiak because the MWOWC didn't feature the rescale or the Mauler nerf (it also didn't include the hitbox change to the Kodiak).

[The Lighthouse]

Bud Crue, on 30 January 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Viable. Interesting choice of word that. Yes a Firestarter is a "viable" light. But it is most certainly NOT comparable to an Arctic Cheetah in terms of its competitiveness. Sure in the right hands a competitive tier player can make anything viable but of the competitive matches I have observed, far more often than not those folks are taking clan mechs (at least for those few dozen MRBC matches that I have watched...I don't pretend to watch them all).

Please no. Giantstarter is not 'viable' in any situation whatsoever.

Andi Nagasia, on 30 January 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

we have to ask our selves is the KDK dominating because its a Clan mech or is it because of its Mounts?
if you put a MAL(4UAC5 +4ML(STD325) vs a KDK(4UAC5 +4ML(STD365) both going the same speed,
which mech would win in a fire fight?

Already said by other, but no one uses STD engine on ANY Clan mechs except very one specific situation. (Quad gauss on Kodiak) The comparison is invalid from the beginning.

[Bud Crue]

The Lighthouse, on 30 January 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Please no. Giantstarter is not 'viable' in any situation whatsoever.

Nonsense. All mechs are viable! Russ says so. Paul has said so repeatedly. And Phoenixfire says for every viable clan mech there is a viable IS mech. I assume the Firestarter is the viable answer to an unarmed Adder without heat sinks (or something) but damn its viable. I mean if it weren't then wouldn't PGI buff it? Surley it must be fine "as is" according to their data.

[PhoenixFire55]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Cool, you like EU teams better, that doesn't mean you can just hand-wave NA away nor does it mean EU is more skilled either.

Not saying they are. Just saying that I'm not as familiar with NA dropdecks, is all.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

You only bring IS for mediums and assaults if you are brawling, heavies are still dominated by Clan stuff (Srmmoners and Splat timbies) while the lights are kind of a tossup (kiss of death Jenner IIC vs Oxide).

Not really, no. SplatCat is better IMO, mostly because it isn't plagued by useless clan SRMs. Very tanky as well, and ears aren't any bigger than TBR's missile STs.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Who uses the Night Gyrs for just dakka? Gauss/PPC is perfect for them and they are typically used in a place you would've used a Whammy since they are more durable and sustainable.

They are not more durable, they are slower and far bigger, also relying too much on arm weaponry. They might look like a direct upgrade on paper, but they are more situational. Plus Gauss got yanked once again, and for a 600-800m weapon its DPS really sux azz.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

The KDK-3 is still around, let's not pretend like the nerfs knocked it off the top assault spot.

It is once again, purely an opinion. What are your builds for KDK-3? Dakka is using unreliable UACs. And dual Gauss+PPCs is using new mid-ranged Gauss. In a trade war between a KDK-3 and a Stalker with LLs/ERLLs my bet is on a Stalker. TBH its going to be Marauder-IICs all season long in all possible scenarios. Until it gets its share of nerfs after enough people buy it. We've been through this countless times.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Clan stuff was used more often than IS.

Used for what? For long range poke wars? Well no **** sherlock. All the noobs trying to trade with clans from 1000m away in FP also think clans are OP. But when an actual brawl starts suddenly OP clans are just wiped out ggez mode. Now I wonder what would have happened if all the good maps like HPG weren't banned from MRBC for some magical reason.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

Sounds like you are salty for not understanding mechanics of map control....

Look, even during MRBC-2 when SRMs were pretty much dominant in EU, NA never really adapted to it. Its your thing, to each its own. I can claim that you guys have no idea how to approach and brawl all the same. Doesn't change the fact that there always was regional differences in meta, I'm not the one who noticed it first.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

True, and given that, only what is going on currently is what matters, and things are still predominantly in clan favor.

And once again you come up with a conclusion taking it right outta yer rear (no offense). In clan favor based on what? PUGs? Half a year+ old client? 3-4 clan mechs with high hardpoints that actually manage to do one thing well enough? If anything there are far more perma-dead clan mechs than those on IS side. All the imbalance issues are related to specific mechs and have nothing to do with IS/clan balance for quite some time now.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:05 AM, said:

You would see a mix, just like before, especially with the addition of the Huntsman (if you open up hero restrictions that is).

LOL ... Huntsman? Hmmm, yeah ...no. Somebody else does everything it can do but better.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Not saying they are. Just saying that I'm not as familiar with NA dropdecks, is all.

Then maybe you should before making these claims because obviously there is some discrepancies.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Not really, no. SplatCat is better IMO, mostly because it isn't plagued by useless clan SRMs.

Splatcat is also easily neutered (the ears stick up higher in comparison to the torso which means they are easy to isolate as well), especially now that it doesn't have all the structure quirks. That said it is still up there on the list of backups for MRBC.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

They are not more durable, they are slower and far bigger

They aren't really bigger and they aren't that much slower. The WHM-6R/BW ran between a 280-300 XL typically. The 280 is exactly the same speed as the Night Gyr while the 300 is only around 5kph faster. What you are really noticing is the agility difference, but that doesn't make up for the lack of a Clan XL which allows you to play less defensive when cored on a side. The DPS isn't really as bad as people think, especially when you don't have heat that limits you (meaning it is good at keeping pressure up in receiving a push) and you don't have to expose as often (the Warhammer has to expose more to do similar damage, and lacks JJs to poptart).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

It is once again, purely an opinion. What are your builds for KDK-3? Dakka is using unreliable UACs.

Unreliable how? You are poking with them so that when they jam you are under cover, just like you did when during the UAC40 days (4 UAC10 was more about burst than sustained). That said, Gauss/PPCs are wonderful at mid/long to the point I don't really mess with dakka all that much (though the cAC40 is somewhat entertaining).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

In a trade war between a KDK-3 and a Stalker with LLs/ERLLs my bet is on a Stalker.

Good thing the Kodiak has speed, since speed is the reason the Stalker fell out of use even before the Kodiak came along because the Battlemaster was faster.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

TBH its going to be Marauder-IICs all season long in all possible scenarios.

If they are available, which they probably won't be given the release schedule, that said they don't replace KDK-3s. Honestly 4 ERPPC Warhawks are starting to be used at extreme range even over ERLL Battlemasters thanks to the versatility without loss of effectiveness while the Quad Gauss Kodiak pretty much died with the Gauss max range nerf.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Used for what? For long range poke wars? Well no **** sherlock. All the noobs trying to trade with clans from 1000m away in FP also think clans are OP. But when an actual brawl starts suddenly OP clans are just wiped out ggez mode. Now I wonder what would have happened if all the good maps like HPG weren't banned from MRBC for some magical reason.

HPG wasn't banned from season 7, and Clan was still dominant there so not really sure what you are talking about, and no, HPG isn't really that brawl oriented (it favors mid to long typically). That said, you still don't seem to understand that brawl is not this magical arena for IS, nor should it be, they should be equally competent at all ranges (just how they fight at those ranges will differ).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Look, even during MRBC-2 when SRMs were pretty much dominant in EU, NA never really adapted to it. Its your thing, to each its own. I can claim that you guys have no idea how to approach and brawl all the same. Doesn't change the fact that there always was regional differences in meta, I'm not the one who noticed it first.

Where did I disagree with the differences in meta? I'm sure there is a difference between NA and Oceanic too, but that doesn't mean that both are equally viable because skill differences play into that as well. We are assuming NA and EU are equally skilled and I would disagree.

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

And once again you come up with a conclusion taking it right outta yer rear (no offense).

No I'm not, I'm basing that off of current practices for comp.....the only one who is taking that conclusion out of their butt is you since you are basing your judgements solely off of past experiences with EU teams (since you haven't brought up your own practices as proof of anything, just EU teams former drop decs I'm guessing from season 7).

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

LOL ... Huntsman? Hmmm, yeah ...no. Somebody else does everything it can do but better.

8 ASRM4 is not something anything else can do, and even then 4 ASRM6 in the torso and 4 SPL is not something anything else can do.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 January 2017 - 12:32 PM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 11:11 AM, said:

They are using that example because most of the IS mechs got nerfed after the rescale meaning that was when they were at their best competition.

You are telling me only now matters in one place then point to a half-year old example in another place. Like really?

Some IS mechs got upscaled, some got downscaled, same with clans. Its not like Jenner-IIC got smaller and the regular one got bigger, nor does it apply for any other comparison of look-alike mechs like HBR vs WHM etc.

Bombast, on 30 January 2017 - 11:09 AM, said:

You're the one that brought up competitive teams, and I'm the one saying that doesn't support your position. Make up your mind, are you for or against using those stats? You can't have it both ways.

LOL ... so in your opinion MWO-WC is the only competitive tournament out there?
Sigh ... can't :fp this enough.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

Some IS mechs got upscaled, some got downscaled

Sure, but most of the competitive ones got upscaled and/or nerfs:

• Mauler, received a massive nerf to ballistic velocity, I think it lost something else on top of that but was minor or irrelevant.
  
• Black Knight, nerfed and upscaled (despite having already dropped out of the meta before that)
  
• Banshee, lost some of the few quirks it had
  
• Warhammer, I believe it received minor nerfs, I think heat gen, was also upscaled
  
• Oxide, upscaled a large amount
  
• Spider, upscaled
  
• Locust, I don't believe it got nerfed initially, but it did get nerfed not too long after that
  
• Catapult, shrunk but also lost a lot of its structure quirks shortly after resulting in still being mostly irrelevant.
  
• Blackjack, upscaled a small amount, nothing really else happened.
  
• Grasshopper, upscaled

The only buff ended up being the Battlemaster getting shrunk a bit (well, the 2C was buffed, the 1G and something else received a quirk nerf on top of the rescale). While on the Clan side the Timber got shortened a bit, Kodiak got a hitbox and quirk adjustment (not that it really changed anything), Jenner IIC was nerfed but Cheetah left unchanged (lost its leg structure quirks shortly after though I believe, still best light). Then the Clans got the Marauder IIC (brutal 85 tonner), Night Gyr, and Huntsman (which is a nice HBK-IIC fallback).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 January 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[Bombast]

PhoenixFire55, on 30 January 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

LOL ... so in your opinion MWO-WC is the only competitive tournament out there?
Sigh ... can't :fp this enough.

And you think 'lol' is the appropriate response?

If you have hard data from another league, that's what you post. Not acronyms and dismissals.

[Koniving]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

Shockingly, I think weapon stats are a bigger deal than engines. Even in the game we have nkw, ebgines can be somewhat mitigated with weapon selection and piloting ability. Nothing can save you from being unable able to engage at the same distances with comparable firepower or pack that giant, light-weight, high-DPS small laser spam.

Naturally, though, there is a feedback loop.

Agreed and I was forced to vote Weapons balance.

Ultimately, semi recent weapon changes reducing the shot count of Clan cannons, duration of the more powerful Clan lasers (which in turn made them seem hotter, and thus brought forth heat reductions to them), and so on are among the biggest causes of Clan balance problems in recent months. After all we've had Clan engines for over 2 years and they were hardly a problem.

This said, endo steel on both sides is a huge issue... In Battlemech customization rules you couldn't change structure; only in Battlemech design rules (from the factory) could you change structure. So when Clans are changing to endo steel on their Battlemechs it is creating a huge issue for both the IS and Clan Omnimechs.

The engines, while somewhat of an issue, is easily mitigated with the implementation of Critical Hits, if each engine slot has a SEPARATE health pool (so it's not too easily destroyed by the mythical "6 MG spider", and the engine is destroyed when 3 of these slots being destroyed, regardless of torsos available or lost.

Heatsinks need some work too. They used to melt and now they don't. Riding high levels of heat in closed beta would produce damage in heatsinks and other componnents. Losing heatsinks used to actually reduce cooling rates and overall maximum threshold, but now they don't seem to. We need to do something about the rising threshold issues, too, for the more crap you can stack the more maximum heat you can safely alpha -- a growing that PGI has conjured up bandaid (raising medium laser heat) after bandaid (ghost heat) after bandaid (laser range only if targeting) after bandaid (ghost heat 2.0 with energy draw).... and consistently ignored the CORE issue of it all, where they keep lowering weapon heat and allowing the maximum threshold to increase.

In lore, "Overriding" only overrode the weapons lockout when higher than a certain amount of heat (usually 80%). You actually shut down at 100% heat regardless, and will not be able to start up until at less than 50% heat. (14 out of 30 units). Any "shut down chance" before then on the heat scale is actually related to the possibility of firing all those weapons too close together instead of one at a time with enough space in between to keep from overheating across ten seconds. Try it mathmatically.

Andi Nagasia, on 26 January 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edited by Koniving, 30 January 2017 - 12:59 PM.