52 replies to this topic

[Reza Malin]

Ok so i am sick of seeing the same crappy posts by the same small minded people, basically saying, in roundabout or variously veiled manners, "git gud".

I am no expert, however i can hazard a guess that the reason you always see the same people in FP is because they all roll round in units, stomping anybody else that isn't playing the same way. With a huge playerbase of people of this gamestyle, it would not be as much of an issue. The playerbase is not big enough for that though. A lot of players just stay in quickplay to avoid exactly this kind of play, even though they would probably rather the better game mode that is FP.

Not me, i try my luck solo in FP, and usually have decent games, tagging on with small groups and a few randoms. Am about the 300 mark on the FP merc pilot leaderboards, so can hold my own. I also see when people get stomped and take lessons from it.

Meanwhile, pugs/new/inexperienced players, whether solo or in groups, can basically frack themselves and fester in QP until they are at the "acceptable" level perceived by the so called, top tier units. Which essentially rarely happens because i am guessing most players not already in the unit circlejerk, or who haven't played for a long time and can hold their own solo, just give up and play something less convoluted and elitist.

I think people seriously underestimate the implications of having a community set up like this in a FREE TO PLAY game. Rememebr, newer players have no real reason to keep at it after they have enough negative experience. They can just give up, they haven't paid for a game, or any mechs they just try it out for a bit, maybe drop a few dollars, get stomped, write it off as a bad game and move on. The long time players lose here, not the newer ones who would no doubt say they "dodged a bullet".

Well i have an idea to change things up. Right or wrong, its a suggestion. One of the issues is the fact the majority of better players are mercs in merc units. This allows them to switch side whenever "balance" changes are made to the latest FOTM. What might be worth trying is putting a bigger emphasis on loyalist units with mercs as supplements, not mainstays of the FW efforts.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but there is pretty much zero loyalist clan teams, and there must be a reason. My reasoning is if people find a bit too much stiff opposition, they can change sides the next week to get the best easy mode drops for pug farms.

I see people fed up of playing FP for being rolled by units all the time, i rarely see FP players getting bored of doing the rolling though, no matter how much they claim to prescribe to the "i want to play equally skilled opponents" mindset.

I don't know what numbers to suggest, but maybe one 4 man merc group per side in any match. No more than 4. This might encourage more loyalist clan units to develop instead of the predominantly merc groups we see.

Its no quick fix, but i think if people had to commit to one side, then people would more often come up against equally balanced teams. As opposed to what we seem to have now, with all the strong mercs being on one side, and having more chance to pick the winning faction that week against a variety of less capable players on the other.

There just seems to be more of a focus on trying to make the T4 and T5 level players step up to the T1 level overnight, which is never going to realistically happen, than there is on trying to balance the playerbase into two equally matched factions regardless of player skill levels.

12 man VS 12 man is one thing.

8 man merc pug farmers + "randoms" VS 8 man T4/5 teams and 3 or 4 "randoms" is another.

Id like to see 8 man loyalist with 4 man merc teams. Or 8 loyalist pugs with 4 mercs against 8 loyalist pugs with 4 mercs. Basically, give people a reason to play loyalist and be loyal while giving less incentive to be merc all the time.

One man merc units like myself are another negative that needs to be changed, which will encourage more players to join units or go loyalist, thereby increasing the loyalist pool for mercs to team up with.

Someone tell me where i am going wrong here and what else we could try and do? I just think rather than the usual git gud rhetoric that hasn't changed anything for years, we should look for other ways to make the game fairer to all.

You never know it might encourage more people to hang around and learn how to play the game rather than thinking f**k this its full of bellends.

Its been a long day at "work" here, so i am sure i will get a few people ripping into this, c'est la vie.

Edited by Reza Malin, 27 January 2017 - 08:42 AM.

[Starbomber109]

I both like and hate this idea. I like it because it's a great way to Ballance groups, by limiting the size A smaller group will have to work with the other 8players on the team, you may end up with lots of 4+4+4 teams but that's OK in my book.

I don't like it though because there should be a place for people to drop 12 man tight nit units and that place should probably be FP. Maybe only Mercs with the right kind of contract can 12 man, or maybe limit groups so they have to bring full lances? In principle I like your idea but I feel like it would go against the spirit of FP in some regards.

[Spider00x]

Dude you cant punish good players who practice and play as a team just because they are Mercs... like their are plenty of bad merc teams as well. Im trying to work to bolster the loyalist population, but its not the mercenaries fault that PGI set up the ques the way they did

[Reza Malin]

Spider00x, on 27 January 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

Dude you cant punish good players who practice and play as a team just because they are Mercs... like their are plenty of bad merc teams as well. Im trying to work to bolster the loyalist population, but its not the mercenaries fault that PGI set up the ques the way they did

How is it punishing them? They can drop in 4 mans or go loyalist and drop as 12's or 8's. It should be a choice, with advantages and disadvantages to both.

They aren't punished. Its not like you are saying, they wouldnt be able to drop as 8 or 12 man, they just wouldnt be able to do it as mercs.

Right now there is no difference between loyalists and mercs.

What incentive is there to be loyalist? Of course all the best teams will stay merc right now, because being merc is its own meta as far as factions go.

I hear you saying you are working on it, but there is no work the players can really do to improve it, only stop it getting worse.

Something needs to be changed in the way it is organised, and this is juist one suggestion from me, seeing as mercs seem to make up the majority of the best units. There is a reason for this.

Edited by Reza Malin, 27 January 2017 - 09:33 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Starbomber109, on 27 January 2017 - 09:13 AM, said:

I both like and hate this idea. I like it because it's a great way to Ballance groups, by limiting the size A smaller group will have to work with the other 8players on the team, you may end up with lots of 4+4+4 teams but that's OK in my book.

I don't like it though because there should be a place for people to drop 12 man tight nit units and that place should probably be FP. Maybe only Mercs with the right kind of contract can 12 man, or maybe limit groups so they have to bring full lances? In principle I like your idea but I feel like it would go against the spirit of FP in some regards.

So maybe let loyalists drop in 8 or 12, that way full 12 mans can still drop but only as loyalist units.

[Starbomber109]

Reza Malin, on 27 January 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

So maybe let loyalists drop in 8 or 12, that way full 12 mans can still drop but only as loyalist units.

Seems like a pretty harsh punishment for Merc units....Maybe there can be a Loyalist Merc Unit ( for example, you could charter under Clan Diamond Shark, and still be a Merc Unit, but can only accept clan contracts, or with MRBC, a Merc Unit that only works for the great houses. Otherwise you'd strike out on your own but you could only form FP teams of four or less)

[M A N T I S]

I always thought that Loyalists should be the only units able to tag planets. Mercs should be assigned to a faction via an open bid system (combination of MC and C-bill) which becomes their premium. Loyalist units should bid to acquire merc units to their faction via the bid system.

[Reza Malin]

Starbomber109, on 27 January 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

Seems like a pretty harsh punishment for Merc units....Maybe there can be a Loyalist Merc Unit ( for example, you could charter under Clan Diamond Shark, and still be a Merc Unit, but can only accept clan contracts, or with MRBC, a Merc Unit that only works for the great houses. Otherwise you'd strike out on your own but you could only form FP teams of four or less)

Ok so a couple of people talk about punishment for merc units.

How is it a punishment? What is stopping them from going loyalist if they want to drop in bigger groups? The only punishment is not letting them switch sides whenever they feel like it.

Anyway, they could always scrim up if they want to 12 man against some equally skilled players, just not in FP where they have an over representation right now.

M A N T I S, on 27 January 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

I always thought that Loyalists should be the only units able to tag planets. Mercs should be assigned to a faction via an open bid system (combination of MC and C-bill) which becomes their premium. Loyalist units should bid to acquire merc units to their faction via the bid system.

Mate im up for anything, im just throwing something out there and seeing what comes back.

I just think the way mercs work right now is a relevant issue with FP.

Edited by Reza Malin, 27 January 2017 - 10:05 AM.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

This would not solve your stated problem. If your solution worked as intended and it was motivation enough to make MERCs go Loyalist, then big bad Loyalist 12 mans would be pug stomping across the FP potato fields just the same. This is a team game and a social game, people who play the game this way will continue to group up and play as groups. People who solo will continue to solo, and potatoes will potato. This is the same as giving IS extra tonnage. Shifting the 'problem' around doesn't fix the problem.

here's a thought, Give large rewards for loyalist and give loyalists bonus rewards for playing as a member of a group with rewards scaling upwards depending on how many in your group. Try rewarding teamwork in a game mode that is all about teamwork, instead of trying to nerf a portion of the player base because you perceive it as the problem with FP just because they choose to play as a team in a team based game.

[Kin3ticX]

has anyone considered trying to emulate the merc units in question?

[Zito]

Reza Malin, on 27 January 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

I think people seriously underestimate the implications of having a community set up like this in a FREE TO PLAY game. Rememebr, newer players have no real reason to keep at it after they have enough negative experience. They can just give up, they haven't paid for a game, or any mechs they just try it out for a bit, maybe drop a few dollars, get stomped, write it off as a bad game and move on. The long time players lose here, not the newer ones who would no doubt say they "dodged a bullet".

The negative experience you describe is what got me to stay in this game earlier on. Its a very challenging game if you are new. Its not for weak game hoppers. Every good player I know in this game has a competitive nature. They were driven by the challenge and did what it took to be good.

You reject "git gud", but isn't that the idea of a game? Who the hell wants to play a game that you are instantly the best. Anyone that wants that needs to be playing Tic-Tac-Toe Online.

[Starbomber109]

Kin3ticX, on 27 January 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

has anyone considered trying to emulate the merc units in question?

I don't think he mentioned any units by name. He did say there were no clan loyalist units ignoring groups like CGBI, JFGG and BNB. I know most hardcore Mercs laugh at units like these but for your average team of 12 friends or pugs seeing all those tags can be intimidating, and they're good enough to put up a great fight. Most of them have decent winrates on the clan loyalist leaderboard. ISEN is a solid IS loyalist unit.

I think his issue is part of a growing trend, it's not really worthwhile to be a Loyalist, and you are penalized HARD by the game for breaking loyalty. This seems to be the way PGI designed the system, they WANTED Mercs to be real players and land takers in the inner sphere.

So then my next question goes out to PGI, other than RPG aspects and achievements, what reason would anyone have for going loyalist, why even have loyalist as a career path?

[Monkey Lover]

Mercs are a issue but game design is the #1 issue.

The game still does not the scale.....


Right now you can have 11 people show up on both sides and they will make ghost drop until everyone quits.

Let anyone who shows up fight. Something better than nothing.

Right now if there are only 30 people playing the game captures number and scouting is the same as there are 500 people. Scale the game.

We have times of the day when it's best to fight. There should never be a best time to play.

We even lost knowing how many people are in Q after 1 bucket.

Start with the basics , fix anything that makes someone go to group Q other than cw.

After this work on features and rewards.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 27 January 2017 - 04:08 PM.

[xX PUG Xx]

Over the years I have seen soooo many posts like this. Can anyone remember the cries of "12 mans are ruining this game" and utter outrage at players looking to build or demonstrate their teamwork in a team based game? The many "show us where the premade touched you on the Commando doll" comments? That is where the seperare solo and group queue originated from; the difference in CW / FW /FP (Yes I've played in all of them) is that the mode is designed primarily around TEAM play.

If a player CHOOSES to drop as a solo pilot in this environment they are expressing their consent to play in what is SUPPOSED to be the "End Game", the "Hard" mode, the battle ground for "Teams". If they have insufficient skill to play as a solo in this environment there is noone to blame but themselves; these forums are awash with information on 'Mechs, builds, tactical information and would you believe it? Teams or more accurately units willing to help players looking to get into FP. These big bad units, both Loyalist and Mercenary regularly advertise in the forums, the solo pilot that actually invests tge time to look can trip over a half dozen in their own timezone within a matter of minutes of reading.

So your comment on players with lower skills needing to "git gud" isn't entirely inaccurate, the simple fact of life is that if you want to win at something you need to get better at it and the better you are the more often you will win. In terms of MWO and more precisely FP, the equalizer in many matches is the teamwork; if one side works better together then they will most likely either win or at the very least have a close, hard fight with the other team.

What my experience has shown me over the years is that the players in most teams/units are naturally teamwork orientated and therefore are able to perform better in that type of environment; regardless of bring in the same unit or not they can integrate into a "team" and perform to the benefit of that team. What your suggestion on limiting group size does is punish this type of player for the audacity to want to group up with his or her friends and teammates in the area of the game that was designed/pitched/advertised for them.

Personally I have no problem with pilots dropping solo in FP as I do it myself, what I have problem with is players expecting everyone else to change or limit themselves for their benefit. If I drop into FP solo then I know I have to accept that I need to play as well as I can and that sometimes that may not be good enough. It is not the fault of the 12 man group on the other side, it was my own choice to not group up with friends or check one of the many community TeamSpeak servers or even use the LFG function. It. Was. My. Choice and I either played like a superstar or got stomped like a bug. Either way I shake it off, either look for some friends that are online, drop again and try to improve or go drop in the mode designed specifically for me to play solo Quick Play.




OK this turned into a rant but I'm fed up with this sort of thing.

*EDIT* IDI and many other "Merc" units are hardly Elite, a lot of us are merely a group of friends that are looking to have fun playing a game together. The improved teamwork helps with this but the majority simply have a laugh and take the pi... er, mickey. For us, this is what makes the game fun; win or lose

Edited by xX PUG Xx, 27 January 2017 - 11:29 AM.

[James Argent]

It isn't that 'git gud' (they should get spellcheck, too) isn't a desired goal. It's that it's all too often used to dismiss ANY concern and shoot down ANY idea. It indicates a total lack of concern for the overall health of the game, which is not here solely to cater to the electronic phallus stroking of a few who would evidently rather see the game shut down than take any steps to make it accessible to more players. Ideas are presented to help players 'get good' but every time, instead of discussing the merits of the ideas, someone throws out the same lame (subtext added) 'Nah, just git gud on your own using methods that worked for me but wouldn't necessarily work for everyone and conditions which may not even exist in the game anymore.' If these people really are that 'gud,' wouldn't they still be 'gud' if something changes to make things more competitive?

[justcallme A S H]

Another 'punish' merc thread without any actual understanding of the game or the greater issues it'll cause.

Sigh.

[SmokeGuar]

Another 'punish' Clan loyalist thread without any actual understanding of the game... Oh wait.

Clap clap.

[Vxheous]

One of the reasons that merc units dominate fp as opposed to loyalist isn't because mercs want to jump to get easy games, its because many players do not want to be constrained to one tech base. I can only play IS or Clan for about 2 weeks before I get bored and want to play my other mechs

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 27 January 2017 - 04:19 PM.

[Commander A9]

So what ARE Mercenary 12-man teams supposed to do?

Split into 4-man lances? And play with people that aren't on their comms or even speaking their own language?

Yeah...no...I'm in a unit so I don't have to put up with THAT crap.

[Khalcruth]

As an aside, I'd think it would in PGI's financial interest to have as many mercs as possible - a Steiner Loyalist, for example, is probably a lot less likely to buy the next Clan mechpack.