310 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

G4LV4TR0N, on 31 January 2017 - 08:54 PM, said:

I am sorry Deathlike but the only clueless guy in this topic is simply you. You already stated you don't own KFX-PR so you should be technically out of this topic long time ago but you keep going with your pointless talking on and on. I own all Kit Foxes and I can get 500 game score in any variant so for me Kit Fox Purifier is not pay to win, if winning for you is getting high score. I hope I am clean here.

lol

It's amazing how you like using flawed logic. You think not owning it means I don't know how a Kit Fox works? Are you special?


Winning is not always about damage, but then again doing a lot more useful damage usually increases your chances of winning.

Chances are if I got the Purifier's side torso omnipods on any Kitfox (since they can be moved around), I would very likely do more damage and be more successful on the whole with the Kitfox. It's not even really a debate.

Since the Purifier is behind a paywall, getting it would be by definition P2W. It's that simple. You refuse to understand what P2W is, and that's your own problem.

[MacClearly]

Deathlike, on 31 January 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

That's not how the math works.

If for some reason the Kitfox was ever the "new Light meta", then the Purifier would literally be P2W by definition. It just becomes a lot more self-evident.

Just because something gets a power boost for just existing, doesn't mean it avoids the definition due to other things being superior relatively speaking. When the power levels change depending on whether you spend money or not, that's P2W.

It's not math and that's a big if.

Pay to win doesn't mean the best of a subpar chassis.

Yeonne Greene, on 31 January 2017 - 08:33 PM, said:

He really does think in macros.

You are trying to reason with somebody who really does think in macros. His position is so fundamentally flawed but he can't even see it because his thought process is stuck at Duplos level while the rest of us have moved on from Lego entirely and are assembling thoughts at the nanoscopic level.

Now you are getting insulting because you can't make a point and you are not able to convince me that you deciding what something means is a valid argument.

[Deathlike]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not math and that's a big if.

Pay to win doesn't mean the best of a subpar chassis.

When the upgrade itself makes a subpar chassis better... I'd have to spend real money to get the upgrade and that is P2W.

Just because the subpar chassis is still overall subpar despite the upgrade, it doesn't avoid it from being considered P2W.

Simple math.

[MacClearly]

Deathlike, on 31 January 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

lol

It's amazing how you like using flawed logic. You think not owning it means I don't know how a Kit Fox works? Are you special?


Winning is not always about damage, but then again doing a lot more useful damage usually increases your chances of winning.

Chances are if I got the Purifier's side torso omnipods on any Kitfox (since they can be moved around), I would very likely do more damage and be more successful on the whole with the Kitfox. It's not even really a debate.

Since the Purifier is behind a paywall, getting it would be by definition P2W. It's that simple. You refuse to understand what P2W is, and that's your own problem.

The problem is with you deciding pay to win means pay to have the best of one variant. This is particularly foolish considering there are better options in other chassis.

The only one here in the running to qualify for the Special Olympics is you.

[Deathlike]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

The problem is with you deciding pay to win means pay to have the best of one variant. This is particularly foolish considering there are better options in other chassis.

I don't think you understand.

I've already used this example and I'll repeat it again just for you.

The KDK-3 is the best mech variant in the entire game. That's pretty much a fact.

If for some reason it was gated by real money (it being a hero instead of a regular variant), it would be the literal obvious definition of P2W.

Just because the other options suck, doesn't negate the P2W nature of it.

It's easy to assess that the Purifier is the "best Kitfox", at least in the form of the torso omnipods. Since the omnipods accessibility is limited to actually owning the mech, you have to buy the mech. This requires real money.

In this instance, because the best omnipods are behind a paywall... it's P2W.

It doesn't mean it's a good deal... but if you want the best options for a Kitfox, you have to pay real money to get that option.

It's really that simple.

Quote

The only one here in the running to qualify for the Special Olympics is you.

lol ok

[Y E O N N E]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

Now you are getting insulting because you can't make a point and you are not able to convince me that you deciding what something means is a valid argument.

I already made the solid argument. You invented an entirely new set of conditions that did not apply at the outset of the thread and under which only you can be right.

Quote:

MacClearly, on 30 January 2017 - 09:41 PM, said:

No it is not that simple. Language is simple and trying to make an end run around it to fit your narrative is convoluted. You can't just bend things to include what you think they mean to support your argument. Simply isn't valid.

You have twisted the language to fit your argument. You are twisting the definition of "winning" to mean what you want it to mean and only what you want it to mean despite the fact that it is, objectively, not constrained to be so.

And the bit about thinking in macros is by your own admission:

Quote

Edit: Just for added emphasis, sticking to simple and basic literal meaning of words is the complete opposite of being overly complicated. Am actually a bit surprised you framed it that way since I am saying basically to keep it simple.

Google entry for winning said:

gaining, resulting in, or relating to victory in a contest or competition

See, I don't have to twist or invent anything because it is right there in plain English.

The literal meaning of the word "winning," under no uncertain terms, is not constrained to only apply at the level of the entire match. A fight with one 'Mech is a contest you can win. A fight against the leaderboards is a contest you can win. Having a better 'Mech than the other guy is related to victory, doesn't mean it has to actually win the match every time.

I win this argument, full-stop, without even trying and while using your own f*cked up logic to boot.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 31 January 2017 - 09:34 PM.

[G4LV4TR0N]

I am sure if they would introduce paid Urbanmech with extra free flamer sticking right out of ****, always flaming with rainbow-purple fire then exactly same forum warriors would show up and start another flame war about how this is pay to win or pay to be better or pay to be cooler pay to do more damage or pay to do anything, just to score few more forum posts. Pointless thread actually.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 31 January 2017 - 09:37 PM.

[MacClearly]

Deathlike, on 31 January 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

I don't think you understand.

I've already used this example and I'll repeat it again just for you.

The KDK-3 is the best mech variant in the entire game. That's pretty much a fact.

If for some reason it was gated by real money (it being a hero instead of a regular variant), it would be the literal obvious definition of P2W.

Just because the other options suck, doesn't negate the P2W nature of it.

It's easy to assess that the Purifier is the "best Kitfox", at least in the form of the torso omnipods. Since the omnipods accessibility is limited to actually owning the mech, you have to buy the mech. This requires real money.

In this instance, because the best omnipods are behind a paywall... it's P2W.

It doesn't mean it's a good deal... but if you want the best options for a Kitfox, you have to pay real money to get that option.

It's really that simple.



lol ok

No it absolutely isn't that simple because it doesn't make sense.

The best mech in the game is not the same as the best variant. Yes if the KDK 3 was behind a paywall it would be pay to win because there is no other assault or mech that is equal.

The other guy is hilariously focused on the best variant as are you and saying that I am stuck in macro thinking. What I am saying outright in plain english and very simple to follow is that because there are equal or better options for free it is not pay to win.

It is pay for the best variant and that is simply not the same thing.

It really appears that you are stuck trying to redefine what pay to win means. You are trying to expand it to include being the best of one chassis which it is not. As long as you can get something that is equivelant or better it is not pay to win, because you are not getting an advantage over someone who has no choice but to level the playing field by spending money. The Artic Cheetah is a better mech available for space bucks. There are likely more but I am trying to drive home what is actually very simple to someone who is misinterpreting what pay to win means.

So you can be as condescending as you want and get insulting about what is simple but your always going to be wrong if you are saying that pay to win means what you want it to mean to fit your narative, and that despite expanding that definition you are going to limit it to being the best of one variant and not consider other mechs.

[MacClearly]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 January 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

I already made the solid argument. You invented an entirely new set of conditions that did not apply at the outset of the thread and under which only you can be right.

Quote:


You have twisted the language to fit your argument. You are twisting the definition of "winning" to mean what you want it to mean and only what you want it to mean despite the fact that it is, objectively, not constrained to be so.

And the bit about thinking in macros is by your own admission:





See, I don't have to twist or invent anything because it is right there in plain English.

The literal meaning of the word "winning," under no uncertain terms, is not constrained to only apply at the level of the entire match. A fight with one 'Mech is a contest you can win. A fight against the leaderboards is a contest you can win. Having a better 'Mech than the other guy is related to victory, doesn't mean it has to actually win the match every time.

I win this argument, full-stop, without even trying and while using your own f*cked up logic to boot.

You are a joke. You can't win the argument by misinterpreting what pay to win means. You don't win the argument because you want to use micro thinking in relation to what the term pay to win means, but macro thinking because you want to apply it to one variant of a chassis while excluding the competitiveness of all others. Not even to mention the "macro thinking" of the Purifiers overall effectiveness in the game!!!

To win an argument you have to have convincing or compelling evidence or reasoning that is enough to sway the other person. This is almost impossible to do by misinterpreting english and telling someone that the definition of the term is not face value but what you have decided it is. It is ridiculous.

Again go back to any game or sports for an analogy or comparison. You don't have to accept that games have winning conditions or that statistics can be used to measure individual performance and or success, but by refusing to accept this and insisting it is only relative to the individual is patently absurd. It's like saying I am a financial success because I have accumulated a thousand dollars...

It does seem however that you and Charlie Sheen share the same idea of 'winning'.

[G4LV4TR0N]

MacClearly, for your information - the best Kit Fox variant is KFX-C that is C-Bill version. Then IMO there's KFX-D and KFX-PR together second.

[wicm]

Hate to state the obvious here, but PGI is not a charity. this game is free to play so long as some of us buy mech packs and heroes. There is no way around this except some rich type wants to pay PGI's salary for a couple of years? By the way (this is for the kids out there) this is why socialism dose not work....it is really pay to play

[Deathlike]

G4LV4TR0N, on 31 January 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

MacClearly, for your information - the best Kit Fox variant is KFX-C that is C-Bill version. Then IMO there's KFX-D and KFX-PR together second.

The failure to ignore that you can put the omnipod's of one variant into another (outside of the CT omnipod) is why your point it irrelevant.

Even before the KFX-C was out, the KFX-C's right arm omnipod was available to everyone. So, technically, you can put pretty much any omnipod from one to another... except in the case of the Purifier, you have to buy the mech to gain said omnipods. Even then, you could already put in the KFX-C's Right Arm (with ECM and all) into the Purifier.

[Deathlike]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

No it absolutely isn't that simple because it doesn't make sense.

The best mech in the game is not the same as the best variant. Yes if the KDK 3 was behind a paywall it would be pay to win because there is no other assault or mech that is equal.

The other guy is hilariously focused on the best variant as are you and saying that I am stuck in macro thinking. What I am saying outright in plain english and very simple to follow is that because there are equal or better options for free it is not pay to win.

It is pay for the best variant and that is simply not the same thing.

It really appears that you are stuck trying to redefine what pay to win means. You are trying to expand it to include being the best of one chassis which it is not. As long as you can get something that is equivelant or better it is not pay to win, because you are not getting an advantage over someone who has no choice but to level the playing field by spending money. The Artic Cheetah is a better mech available for space bucks. There are likely more but I am trying to drive home what is actually very simple to someone who is misinterpreting what pay to win means.

So you can be as condescending as you want and get insulting about what is simple but your always going to be wrong if you are saying that pay to win means what you want it to mean to fit your narative, and that despite expanding that definition you are going to limit it to being the best of one variant and not consider other mechs.

No.

You're hyperfocused on the fact that it doesn't make it the best mech in the game.

The issue is primarily that it makes a crappy mech better. Still, that's Pay To Win.

You have to ignore what it is relative to everything else. It matters what that change does within its own chassis.


It's more about accessibility. If what you need to obtain a "equal playing field" requires money, fundamentally, you are "paying to win". If the mech was available to everyone (like w/o paying real money, dropping the camo and C-bills bonus), then noone could claim that the mech was inaccessible because of real money.

That's the difference.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 January 2017 - 10:18 PM.

[MacClearly]

Deathlike, on 31 January 2017 - 10:17 PM, said:

No.

You're hyperfocused on the fact that it doesn't make it the best mech in the game.

The issue is primarily that it makes a crappy mech better. Still, that's Pay To Win.

You have to ignore what it is relative to everything else. It matters what that change does within its own chassis.


It's more about accessibility. If what you need to obtain a "equal playing field" requires money, fundamentally, you are "paying to win". If the mech was available to everyone (like w/o paying real money, dropping the camo and C-bills bonus), then noone could claim that the mech was inaccessible because of real money.

That's the difference.

No I am focused on it's place in the game overall. It's place within it's weight class. What pay to win means.

An equal playing field takes more into consideration than one particular variant of a chassis.

Right now I am trying to level Riflemen after Mastering 5 of 6 Bushwackers over the event. Would you be surprised if I told you I thought the Legend Killer was the best of the bunch? That is subjective I guess because there are other that do the current meta better, but still it could be argued with it's lbx god quirks it is the best and easiest to do well in.

Now using this scenario is it pay to win or does only subjective meta count?

G4LV4TR0N, on 31 January 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

MacClearly, for your information - the best Kit Fox variant is KFX-C that is C-Bill version. Then IMO there's KFX-D and KFX-PR together second.

Thank you I haven't played them very much besides maybe ten matches when I bought the Purifier.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wicm, on 31 January 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Hate to state the obvious here, but PGI is not a charity. this game is free to play so long as some of us buy mech packs and heroes. There is no way around this except some rich type wants to pay PGI's salary for a couple of years? By the way (this is for the kids out there) this is why socialism dose not work....it is really pay to play

You know there are other sources of revenue they could create right? You act like this is just how every game does it when in fact it isn't.

[Deathlike]

MacClearly, on 31 January 2017 - 10:32 PM, said:

No I am focused on it's place in the game overall. It's place within it's weight class. What pay to win means.

An equal playing field takes more into consideration than one particular variant of a chassis.

Right now I am trying to level Riflemen after Mastering 5 of 6 Bushwackers over the event. Would you be surprised if I told you I thought the Legend Killer was the best of the bunch? That is subjective I guess because there are other that do the current meta better, but still it could be argued with it's lbx god quirks it is the best and easiest to do well in.

Now using this scenario is it pay to win or does only subjective meta count?

It could be argued you'd be paying to win in a Rifleman, but that doesn't disallow the fact that there are terrible hero mechs too, like the Pretty Baby. Just because they are behind a paywall doesn't mean they can't suck too, not just be really good.

One could've argued the Black Widow (Marauder hero) is P2W to a degree. It provides something no other 75-ton IS mech can do... allow for 4 AC5 high mounted dakka. I'm not so sure how popular after the heat generation increase, but before that nerf, it could easily be called P2W then and just as much now (to a lesser degree).


Back when PGI did their first "beta" tourney (we're talking pre-MWOMC) when this was done before Clans the most prominent mechs on the field were Embers (Firestarter hero) and Dragon Slayers (Victor hero). Back then, it could easily be determined P2W. They were the most dominant mechs in their brackets at the time.


Meta can determine whether things are great or not, and when the optimal option (it doesn't have to be the best mech overall, just best in variant for that chassis is enough) is gated behind a paywall... again... they are considered P2W.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 February 2017 - 08:47 AM.

[AlexEss]

*points to YLW*

Pretty sure that by that standard.. the game has always been P2W...

Also

machineguns...

Adorbz

[vandalhooch]

Snazzy Dragon, on 27 January 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

The Bounty Hunter has +20% range on medium lasers along with another 10% from a module. it's absolutely a devastating mech with 3LPLs + 5 medium lasers and is one of the best laser vomit platforms for IS after the black knight nerfs

Not sure how you get 8 lasers on a mech with 7 energy hardpoints.

[Snazzy Dragon]

vandalhooch, on 01 February 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

Not sure how you get 8 lasers on a mech with 7 energy hardpoints.

LOL typo

You're the first to notice. I'll go edit that

[Revis Volek]

G4LV4TR0N, on 31 January 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

MacClearly, for your information - the best Kit Fox variant is KFX-C that is C-Bill version. Then IMO there's KFX-D and KFX-PR together second.

None of them are better or worse then any of the others except for the Purifiers Pay walled ST pods.


They dont have anything in the CT's that make any one better or worse then another, except there is that one thats cost $$$ which is really good compared to the others stuff.