310 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

G4LV4TR0N, on 30 January 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

So whole time you are commenting mech you don't own? I wouldn't take advice from you.

lol... you know how hard to NOT comment on a mech that you shoot at or have understood the mechanics of?

There's plenty of examples of what the difference is between shooting weapons from the torso, than shooting from the arms. The Summoner is one of them (don't own the loyalty pods, but I have a pretty good idea what that would entail) and certainly the Nova.

But hey, you don't have to use your brain.

[Morggo]

Again, I come back to this sort of comparison/situation...

- A less skilled player, like myself, buys a Hero.
- A well skilled player takes a cbill variant.

Do I have the advantage, and guarantee of beating the skilled player? Not in my view.
I admit to owning nearly every hero in the chassis families that I own. I can definitely say I haven't found pay to win. In fact, generally find I play the cbill variants far more... my 3R way more than my BH. My X5 rarely goes out, but my 3M does. Misery? Nah, prefer several other Stalkers.. list goes on.

And does it matter if you put the highly skilled player in a Hero? Doubtful, given they'd probably beat you in a cbill variant just as easily as the "P2W" variant so what's the real issue. You lost to them regardless.

So, perhaps one can argue that a "P2W" mech may give less skilled players an advantage over less skilled players but given the nature and abilities of we less skilled players it overshadows that advantage, IMO.

So, my take is there's a perception of P2W, but doesn't really play out in practice. Just my view, but like other's worth a couple pennies.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

lol... you know how hard to NOT comment on a mech that you shoot at or have understood the mechanics of?

There's plenty of examples of what the difference is between shooting weapons from the torso, than shooting from the arms. The Summoner is one of them (don't own the loyalty pods, but I have a pretty good idea what that would entail) and certainly the Nova.

But hey, you don't have to use your brain.

Compare Hunch 2C VS Nova

A very apt comparison, being high torso VS low arms
Of course, the Purifier tends to use both, because 4 just isn't enough

[G4LV4TR0N]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

lol... you know how hard to NOT comment on a mech that you shoot at or have understood the mechanics of?

There's plenty of examples of what the difference is between shooting weapons from the torso, than shooting from the arms. The Summoner is one of them (don't own the loyalty pods, but I have a pretty good idea what that would entail) and certainly the Nova.

But hey, you don't have to use your brain.

As I said, I was talking about KFX-PR, the one mentioned in the first post, not about Nova/Summoner. I don't own those mechs so I won't comment, only thing I know - people who own them don't like latest patch changes.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 30 January 2017 - 02:05 PM.

[Coolant]

agree slightly somewhat with OP...more correctly would be to say, very slight advantage, but not Pay-2-Win, unless it guarantees you a win or that ur better than everyone else because of the mech. Your title exaggerates the every-so-slight difference in mechs. When compared to other games, and obvious p2w schemes like special ammo, or indestructibility etc., it is very very minor.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Coolant, on 30 January 2017 - 02:23 PM, said:

agree slightly somewhat with OP...more correctly would be to say, very slight advantage, but not Pay-2-Win

That is the definition of P2W, however small the advantage is, as long as there exists an advantage that can only be bought with real money, it is Pay 2 Win.

[Mcgral18]

G4LV4TR0N, on 30 January 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

As I said, I was talking about KFX-PR, the one mentioned in the first post, not about Nova/Summoner. I don't own those mechs so I won't comment, only thing I know - people who own them don't like latest patch changes.

Not only since the latest patch changes; since the Hero's inception

It is full on superior to any Cbill Cute Fox, because it has more useful, plentiful hardpoints in excellent positions
Having that be cash exclusive is in poor taste

[Coolant]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

That is the definition of P2W, however small the advantage is, as long as there exists an advantage that can only be bought with real money, it is Pay 2 Win.

not according to: http://www.urbandict...term=pay-to-win

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

That small difference in mechs does not make the game largely unbalanced and certainly does not make it unbalanced for those who have skill in the game.

Edited by Coolant, 30 January 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 02:26 PM, said:

That is the definition of P2W, however small the advantage is, as long as there exists an advantage that can only be bought with real money, it is Pay 2 Win.

If you don't have to pay money to win.. it's NOT P2W.. You can't cherry pick one mech, or one variant and then call this game P2W.. Do you have to buy any of the mechs listed in this thread to win? Answer is no.. so by vary definition it's not.


But lets be serious,.. You can't make Hero OMNI mechs, and not have something good on them to make them worth buying and the only way to get.. But even then that does not make it p2w

[Mcgral18]

JC Daxion, on 30 January 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

If you don't have to pay money to win.. it's NOT P2W.. You can't cherry pick one mech, or one variant and then call this game P2W.. Do you have to buy any of the mechs listed in this thread to win? Answer is no.. so by vary definition it's not.


But lets be serious,.. You can't make Hero OMNI mechs, and not have something good on them to make them worth buying and the only way to get.. But even then that does not make it p2w

You can make them good, but don't paywall them

The token idea from 4 years ago would be fine as a substitute, make your own Hero, or buy a robot with a pre-applied token and other bonuses for real cash

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 30 January 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

If you don't have to pay money to win.. it's NOT P2W.. You can't cherry pick one mech, or one variant and then call this game P2W..

Again, you are looking at it the wrong way. You are assuming the Pay-2-Win is defined by something that only offers an advantage over ALL mechs rather than a subset. If a real-money-only mech offers an advantage over others period, that mech is P2W.

Coolant, on 30 January 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Urbandictionary isn't what I would call a definitive source for that definition.....

[G4LV4TR0N]

Mcgral18, on 30 January 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

Not only since the latest patch changes; since the Hero's inception

It is full on superior to any Cbill Cute Fox, because it has more useful, plentiful hardpoints in excellent positions
Having that be cash exclusive is in poor taste

It's definitely not superior to other Kit Foxes, it's unique, it's strong and as you said - it's cash limited. And if somebody has problem with winning in Kit Foxes, no matter of variant, then maybe he should go back to something like Arctic Cheetah?

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 30 January 2017 - 03:08 PM.

[Mcgral18]

G4LV4TR0N, on 30 January 2017 - 03:06 PM, said:

It's definitely not superior to other Kit Foxes, it's unique, it's strong and as you said - it's cash limited. And if somebody has problem with winning in Kit Foxes, no matter of variant, then maybe he should go back to something like Arctic Cheetah?

You're saying it's not superior to other Cute Foxes?


I don't believe you
How is doubling your firepower in a heat efficient way not superior? Or having superior Poke mounts, complete with a Jesus Box?

Edited by Mcgral18, 30 January 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[G4LV4TR0N]

I don't know what builds you are talking about when you talk about "doubling firepower in a heat efficient way". In order to archive this you would also need to double the tonnage. As for ECM, every Kit Fox can buy that for C-Bills.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 30 January 2017 - 03:23 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 30 January 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

Again, you are looking at it the wrong way. You are assuming the Pay-2-Win is defined by something that only offers an advantage over ALL mechs rather than a subset. If a real-money-only mech offers an advantage over others period, that mech is P2W.

With that definition, then every other mech does not perform as well as one that is bought is P2W

Edited by JC Daxion, 30 January 2017 - 03:21 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

JC Daxion, on 30 January 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

With that definition, then every other mech does not perform as well as one that is P2W

Only if they are sold for real money would they meet that, so no, not every other mech is P2W. Hero mechs as unique mechs that are paywalled was a decision that was always going to be plagued with this issue and has shown in the past that they are fine with selling power (whether intentional or not is another story) which is extremely problematic. Heroes should've been basically like Champions are and not unique, or at least be c-bill available if they really wanted to keep the uniqueness.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 30 January 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[Mcgral18]

G4LV4TR0N, on 30 January 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

I don't know what builds you are talking about when you talk about "doubling firepower in a heat efficient way". In order to archive this you would also need to double the tonnage. As for ECM, every Kit Fox can buy that for C-Bills.

How else? SPL boating

It can take 3/4 by default, not very effective
It can take 6-7 (or 8, but no) with the Hero, doubling the effective loadout
7 SPLs with ECM and some heatsinks. No slouch

Or, 4 ERMLs in the torso, ECM, heatsinks and your choice of additional equipment.



Neither of those half decent options are available to the unwashed masses. They're forced to take an AC5, a LPL, or SRMs
None of which are as tonnage efficient as cSPLs

[G4LV4TR0N]

Yeah, I guessed you are talking about C-SMLPulse build that is indeed very strong and limited just to cash version but IMO it's not even good on Kit Fox because other mechs, like Arctic Cheetah do such brawling much better. Also, you do realize that after December patch Kit Foxes are very nicely quirked, but Purifier Side Torsos have no quirks and are missing probably essential Structural Bonus part - that makes them easier to take out than legs?

[Mcgral18]

G4LV4TR0N, on 30 January 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Yeah, I guessed you are talking about C-SMLPulse build that is indeed very strong and limited just to cash version but IMO it's not even good on Kit Fox because other mechs, like Arctic Cheetah do such brawling much better. Also, you do realize that after December patch Kit Foxes are very nicely quirked, but Purifier Side Torsos have no quirks and are missing probably essential Structural Bonus part - that makes them easier to take out than legs?

More guns is always better than more quirks
Unless you get double Structure, it's better to just kill the other guy

[G4LV4TR0N]

Kit Fox Side Torso Structure bonuses are +0/3/10/10/15 for PR/S/PRIME/C/D. Legs are all +14 except "S" that is +7. Then Armor that is 28 both for Legs and Torsos, but as there is Front Torso and Rear Torso that Armor is split. So in other words, KFX-PR Rear Torsos are usually very fragile.

Anyhow I don't see how KFX-PR is "Pay to Win". That is because what does it mean "to win"? And to "win" what - Quick Play games? Faction games? Semi-competitive leagues? World Championships? If you are talking about last option then I haven't see any Kit Fox there and I don't believe KFX-PR will change that. As for other options, probably even Urbanmechs can regularly win games there.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 30 January 2017 - 04:45 PM.