32 replies to this topic

[Hobbles v]

Simple solution I thought of while listening to the FP podcast.

The way the current progress bar works has its flaws. back when clan was heavily favored, the bar would quickly lock into invasion mode.

Recently now that things are balancing out more the mode often stagnates into skirmish for a large amount of the phases and some people don't even get to play invasion for WEEKS.

As it currently works the invasion bar has 5 sections, one for each game mode, each taking 20% of the bar.

Why not increase that number to 20 phases making the game mode change every 5% in a repeating pattern. Small swings in the progress bar will allow the game mode to change rather than one side requiring a significant advantage for the later modes to come into play.

Picture below for context.

Edited by Hobbles v, 27 January 2017 - 07:43 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Take out domination, insert invasion to replace.

Make 3.3% per win to 5% a win.

Done


But ye, agree Hobbles, sick of the same mode for hours on end.

[MacClearly]

Something should be done so that Invasion mode comes up frequently. Quick Play with respawns can get pretty boring when you also have been playing quick play to level up the beautiful mech known as the Bushwacker. Invasion maps are a lot of fun especially when you are in an organised unit. There are lots of us who are sick of never being able to be there at just the right time to catch Invasion mode.

[Hobbles v]

justcallme A S H, on 27 January 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

Take out domination, insert invasion to replace.

Make 3.3% per win to 5% a win.

Done


But ye, agree Hobbles, sick of the same mode for hours on end.

Yeah they could also increase the value of wins to make the bar fluctuate more quickly. But that probably also has a higher risk of getting pushEd into one end and pretty much held there.

[gloowa]

Hobbles v, on 27 January 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

Simple solution I thought of while listening to the FP podcast.

The way the current progress bar works has its flaws. back when clan was heavily favored, the bar would quickly lock into invasion mode.

Recently now that things are balancing out more the mode often stagnates into skirmish for a large amount of the phases and some people don't even get to play invasion for WEEKS.

As it currently works the invasion bar has 5 sections, one for each game mode, each taking 20% of the bar.

Why not increase that number to 20 phases making the game mode change every 5% in a repeating pattern. Small swings in the progress bar will allow the game mode to change rather than one side requiring a significant advantage for the later modes to come into play.

Picture below for context.

This is what i've been proposing since day 1 of FP 4.1

Thank you sir for the graphical representation.


I doesn't solve end-of-the-bar stalemate, but it should be relatively easy to implement while we search for a better solution (if such thing exists).

[BearFlag]

Since we're apparently stuck with this 8 planet glob in abstract tug-o-war, an alternative would be to re-introduce them - planets, I mean, sorta.

Give 12.5 % of the bar to each planet...



and have phase progression for each planet. Right now, you have a +4, 0, -4 winner-take-all or none arrangement. You could have partial victories with this. Might have to reduce the 3.33% to make it work. Or just progress one phase per victory/loss (2.5%).

EDIT: Hmm. Is the bar 100% centered on 50? Or two one hundreds centered on zero? No matter. Just change the values.

Addendum: Going a step further. Ordering the phases. PGI prefers Invasion last, I think it should be first. Not important to this idea. For this example, assume Invasion first. Suppose the Clan has taken Bruben and is working on New Bergen in the diagram. When Bruben is flipped to Clan, the sequence could flip with it so that the "first" phase is now "facing" IS. That is, when the IS pushes back, clears New Bergen and moves to retake Bruben, they'd be facing Invasion first instead of Skirmish. If they take Bruben, the sequence is flipped again and Clan is again facing that first phase first (Invasion in this example).

EDIT: Sorry. Keep editing this as I think of things.

Mode frequency: As planets flip back and forth, the phases are reoriented to put Invasion first. This means Invasion should be the most played mode while Skirmish would be least played IF there's some to and fro movement on the bar. If it's a one direction blowout of course the modes would be near equal.

Immersion: While this doesn't come close to what I consider immersion, it is better than a completely abstract model. As sense of place is restored, a sense of where you just came from and where you hope to go next. There's also a sense of progress at that place. Mopping up or desperately holding out in Skirmish? Assaulting the cannons or pushing the invader back to the cannons and off the planet? Planetary info could even be brought back.

Edited by BearFlag, 29 January 2017 - 02:13 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

MacClearly, on 27 January 2017 - 10:41 PM, said:

Something should be done so that Invasion mode comes up frequently. Quick Play with respawns can get pretty boring when you also have been playing quick play to level up the beautiful mech known as the Bushwacker. Invasion maps are a lot of fun especially when you are in an organised unit. There are lots of us who are sick of never being able to be there at just the right time to catch Invasion mode.

justcallme A S H, on 27 January 2017 - 07:27 PM, said:

Take out domination, insert invasion to replace.

Make 3.3% per win to 5% a win.

Done


But ye, agree Hobbles, sick of the same mode for hours on end.

I hate domination so I'm inclined to agree, but I'm also not a huge fan of Invasion lol.

I think we can all agree that the stagnant period sucks tho.

BearFlag, on 29 January 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Since we're apparently stuck with this 8 planet glob in abstract tug-o-war, an alternative would be to re-introduce them - planets, I mean, sorta.

Give 12.5 % of the bar to each planet...



and have phase progression for each planet. Right now, you have a +4, 0, -4 winner-take-all or none arrangement. You could have partial victories with this. Might have to reduce the 3.33% to make it work. Or just progress one phase per victory/loss (2.5%).

EDIT: Hmm. Is the bar 100% centered on 50? Or two one hundreds centered on zero? No matter. Just change the values.

Addendum: Going a step further. Ordering the phases. PGI prefers Invasion last, I think it should be first. Not important to this idea. For this example, assume Invasion first. Suppose the Clan has taken Bruben and is working on New Bergen in the diagram. When Bruben is flipped to Clan, the sequence could flip with it so that the "first" phase is now "facing" IS. That is, when the IS pushes back, clears New Bergen and moves to retake Bruben, they'd be facing Invasion first instead of Skirmish. If they take Bruben, the sequence is flipped again and Clan is again facing that first phase first (Invasion in this example).

EDIT: Sorry. Keep editing this as I think of things.

Mode frequency: As planets flip back and forth, the phases are reoriented to put Invasion first. This means Invasion should be the most played mode while Skirmish would be least played IF there's some to and fro movement on the bar. If it's a one direction blowout of course the modes would be near equal.

Immersion: While this doesn't come close to what I consider immersion, it is better than a completely abstract model. As sense of place is restored, a sense of where you just came from and where you hope to go next. There's also a sense of progress at that place. Mopping up or desperately holding out in Skirmish? Assaulting the cannons or pushing the invader back to the cannons and off the planet? Planetary info could even be brought back.

No this is great!

Gives almost an "Island hoppers" feel to it, makes planets somewhat relevant, breaks the winner-take-all aspect, and reduces game-mode stagnation.

EDIT: And maybe the "most-voted-for" planet (do loyalists still vote???) is at the center, so if you can barely eke out a win you get the top choice, and if you are roflstomping then you get to collect on even your stretch goal.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 02 February 2017 - 02:37 PM.

[gloowa]

BearFlag, on 29 January 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Since we're apparently stuck with this 8 planet glob in abstract tug-o-war, an alternative would be to re-introduce them - planets, I mean, sorta.

Give 12.5 % of the bar to each planet...



and have phase progression for each planet. Right now, you have a +4, 0, -4 winner-take-all or none arrangement. You could have partial victories with this. Might have to reduce the 3.33% to make it work. Or just progress one phase per victory/loss (2.5%).

EDIT: Hmm. Is the bar 100% centered on 50? Or two one hundreds centered on zero? No matter. Just change the values.

Addendum: Going a step further. Ordering the phases. PGI prefers Invasion last, I think it should be first. Not important to this idea. For this example, assume Invasion first. Suppose the Clan has taken Bruben and is working on New Bergen in the diagram. When Bruben is flipped to Clan, the sequence could flip with it so that the "first" phase is now "facing" IS. That is, when the IS pushes back, clears New Bergen and moves to retake Bruben, they'd be facing Invasion first instead of Skirmish. If they take Bruben, the sequence is flipped again and Clan is again facing that first phase first (Invasion in this example).

EDIT: Sorry. Keep editing this as I think of things.

Mode frequency: As planets flip back and forth, the phases are reoriented to put Invasion first. This means Invasion should be the most played mode while Skirmish would be least played IF there's some to and fro movement on the bar. If it's a one direction blowout of course the modes would be near equal.

Immersion: While this doesn't come close to what I consider immersion, it is better than a completely abstract model. As sense of place is restored, a sense of where you just came from and where you hope to go next. There's also a sense of progress at that place. Mopping up or desperately holding out in Skirmish? Assaulting the cannons or pushing the invader back to the cannons and off the planet? Planetary info could even be brought back.

And this is something i thought about since day one of 4.1, but decided it was kinda meh because people will start moaning about "<x> faction is always getting a planet and we never get one" when a side caps less then all 4 planets.

Edited by gloowa, 04 February 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[BearFlag]

gloowa, on 04 February 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

And this is something i thought about since day one of 4.1, but decided it was kinda meh because people will start moaning about "<x> faction is always getting a planet and we never get one" when a side caps less then all 4 planets.

Yeah, some one's going to complain no matter what is done.

[Insanity09]

Hmm. I like the smaller segments, with each larger segment being a planet capture. Rather than making things an all or nothing deal, having some rewards along the way might make things a bit more reasonable.
And goodness yes, seeing actual invasion more often would be great.

[Lyons De Flamand]

BearFlag, on 29 January 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Give 12.5 % of the bar to each planet...

This I can get behind

[Starbomber109]

I totally read the title of this thread as "Planets"

And then I thought "Hangon, that may actually work!" Have each large bar represent a whole planet! The small bars then are the phases on that individual planet! It would def make faction warfare fell more dynamic.

[Cato Zilks]

BearFlag, on 29 January 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

Since we're apparently stuck with this 8 planet glob in abstract tug-o-war, an alternative would be to re-introduce them - planets, I mean, sorta.

Bearflag, great post. I think this is definitely a needed change, but I think some tweaking is needed. First, the planet order can't just be random or by votes, it should be by faction participation and win percentage. Remember, clans each vote individually, so most votes does not work at all for them. Moreover, If Steiner can't step up, they should not reap the rewards of Liao and Rasalhague. So, I propose that the four planet cycles part of your idea stays, but we don't know which planet is which until after the battle phase ends.

So pretending that IS has the bar about 80% in their favor by end of the battle phase, the system calculates out how each faction did and orders the planets accordingly. Lets just say that each win earns a faction .75 point, and participation earns 0.25 points (so a win actually gets 1 full point as winners participate). In this hypothetical battle phase lets say the point totals look like this:

Liao 648 points
FRR 530.25
Davion 402
Marik 397.75
Kurita 388.5
Steiner 360

The system can't give any planets to Liao, so it will try to give planets to FRR. Once it has given 1 planet to FRR, it will fail to give them Davion and Marik, and then seek to give a planet to Kurita, followed by Steiner. If their are still planets left to award (because say only Smoke Jag planets were attacked), the system will repeat algorithm until the appropriate number of planets are assigned (in this hypothetical that would be 3). While this rewards factions that do most of the winning, it also does not discourage Steiners from participating as they would be assigned a planet (so long as they border a contested planet) before any faction grabs a second planet.

Here is my picture of the bar fully fleshed out:



The bar inside of the invasion segment represents the capture line and an important split in matches. I think the "invader" should only be assigned "attacks" until that line is crossed and after that line it goes to a random selection for which side gets to attack or defend. I do this as I think the defenders should have some advantage.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 05 February 2017 - 01:30 PM.

[BearFlag]

Cato Zilks, on 05 February 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

...So, I propose that the four planet cycles part of your idea stays, but we don't know which planet is which until after the battle phase ends....

Here is my picture of the bar fully fleshed out:

Clearly, my art work is being shamed.

That could work and would probably be a fairer way of awarding planets. Though I do kinda like the immersion part of knowing where you're currently fighting.

[Nightbird]

I would also prefer 1/4 of bar = 1 planet taken, and each win is worth only 1% of the bar. The number of phases would increase as well so it'll still move fairly quickly.

Edited by ironnightbird, 05 February 2017 - 02:16 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

BearFlag, on 05 February 2017 - 02:09 PM, said:

Clearly, my art work is being shamed.

That could work and would probably be a fairer way of awarding planets. Though I do kinda like the immersion part of knowing where you're currently fighting.

Lol, my bad.

I think we could have the planet order be decided by performance from the last battle phase. That way still somewhat determined by performance instead of random or voting mass.

[Danjo San]

Not a bad idea at all. Each victory token placed would be placed for each respective planet, rather than dropping all in one large "bukkit" and then drawing the top four from there. Maybe a small unit only had 2 hours to drop, fought 4 matches but managed to push the bar past one planet alone. After that larger companies roll in and start fighting the rest of the phase over the remaining 3 planets. End of conflict the small unit gets it's share of the pie.
At the same time if one side pushes to the end the incentive could be to minimize damage push back one planet or two.

+1

[Cato Zilks]

Danjo San, on 06 February 2017 - 02:57 AM, said:

At the same time if one side pushes to the end the incentive could be to minimize damage push back one planet or two.

I think this might be the biggest virtue to the system. There is always an objective within reach, no matter what time it is.

[BearFlag]

One problem requiring some thought, I have no immediate answer for. The resolution or density of divisions exceeds their current 3.33% increment. At 2.5% modes would be hopped over. You could use 2.5% for each game - one mode increment per game. But the problem is also complicated by the fact that multiple games can be running concurrently. So three games ending about the same time, all going to one side, would kick the ticker three modes up. It might feel more chaotic than sequenced.

I suppose you could run the planet battles side-by-side with the matchmaker deciding which planet you're shuffled to. That would slow things down on each planet - but might also break partial victory. Dunno. Thorny problem.

[Nighthawk513]

We could just drop to 1-2%, since there are so many modes.
Also, Domination sucks on many maps, and if it was removed from the cycle that would free up space for more modes. I am a fan of either conquest or invasion, with conquest getting my vote, since conquest in faction play is they ONLY mode where you literally can't afford to ignore the objective. Well, aside from dom, but dom is go to the center and fight, while conquest is typically a lot more interesting.