37 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

There was some discussion over reddit the other day, which made me go on a consistency check on all engines.

I've found out that the XL 100 engine is the only engine that does not fit in the MWO rules for engine weights

To show why that is the case, first we need to know how PGI sets the weight on the engines. Right now we have two types of mech engines in the game: Standard and Extra Light (XL).
According to lore, XL engines weigh 50% less than their similarly rated Standard counterparts.

However, In MWO XLs do not weigh 50% less than standards. Here is why:
One should note that in MWO, the mech's Sensors, Cockpit, Life support, and Gyro do not add any weight to the mech; While in lore all of those components have non-zero mass.

• Gyro = [engine rating / 100] tons (e.g. a 100 engine will have a 1 ton gyro and a 105 engine will have a 2 ton gyro)

• Life Support + Cockpit + Sensors weight 3 tons all across the board.

We also should note that no matter what engine you equip, the first 10 heatsinks will cost 0 mass; While in MWO you need to manually add the required heatsinks (1 ton each) to be able to make a valid mech.

In MWO, the Gyro, Cockpit/Life/S mass is added to the engine minus the the extra required heatsinks mass.

Now... Lets do the math for 100 engines.
Std100 engine in lore is 3 tons. In MWO it is 1 ton and requires 6 extra heatsinks
So...

• 3t (lore) + 3t (cockpit/Life/S) + 1t (Gyro) - 6t (extra required heatsinks) = 1 ton (MWO)

which checks out.

An XL100 engine in lore is 1.5 tons. Therefore:

• 1.5t (lore) + 3t (cockpit/Life/S) + 1t (Gyro) - 6t (extra required heatsinks) = - 0.5t (how it should have been in MWO)

However, In MWO it is 0.5 tons.

Is it a mistake?... a typo?




TLDR:
XL100 engines should weigh -0.5 tons. However, its 0.5 tons in game currently.
seems like a typo.
All other engines are consistent with how PGI calculates engine weight .


.

Edited by Navid A1, 10 April 2017 - 06:42 PM.

[Navid A1]

If it was not for PGI I could totally run this monster:

Monster

or this abomination:

A sin

or even this:

Pure Evil

Edited by Navid A1, 29 January 2017 - 01:35 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

[roboPrancer]

Navid A1, on 29 January 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

If it was not for PGI I could totally run this monster:

Monster

or this abomination:

A sin

or even this:

Pure Evil

Single heatsinks and a bit less armor and you can have your monster

[Tarogato]

Navid A1, on 29 January 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

If it was not for PGI I could totally run this monster:

Monster

Joke's on you. Not enough slots to add the last heatsink anyways.


Btw, can confirm, have made a spreadsheet to compare all of the MWO engine weights with all of the classic battle tech engine weights... and everything checks out perfectly. Except for the XL100.

Also, the only mech that could probably reasonably use an XL100 engine and have enough speed to be viable in MWO, would be a 10-ton or mayyyybe a 15-ton mech, they would go 162 kph and 108 kph respectively, before skill trees.

Edited by Tarogato, 29 January 2017 - 02:00 AM.

[Navid A1]

Tarogato, on 29 January 2017 - 01:54 AM, said:

Joke's on you. Not enough slots to add the last heatsink anyways.

Navid A1, on 29 January 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

If it was not for PGI I could totally run this monster:

Monster

or this abomination:

A sin

or even this:

Pure Evil

Also, thanks for double checking this. good to know I did not make a mistake.

Edited by Navid A1, 29 January 2017 - 01:57 AM.

[RestosIII]

'5 AM, haven't gotten any sleep yet'

"I guess I'll check this thread out."

'Tries to understand it, fails horribly'



Pretty sure some of my brain just dribbled out trying to comprehend all of those bolded numbers while sleep deprived. I think I'll come back later.

[Tarogato]

RestosIII, on 29 January 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

'5 AM, haven't gotten any sleep yet'

"I guess I'll check this thread out."

'Tries to understand it, fails horribly'


Pretty sure some of my brain just dribbled out trying to comprehend all of those bolded numbers while sleep deprived. I think I'll come back later.

Then I'm sure you'll love this: https://docs.google....#gid=1944436187

[Navid A1]

Tarogato, on 29 January 2017 - 02:04 AM, said:

Then I'm sure you'll love this: https://docs.google....#gid=1944436187

mechxcellent

[Dee Eight]

Hell in BT they actually as of the clans introduction TRACKED quarter ton fractions in mech construction because the clans had quarter ton MGs. Previously they simply rounded up fractions to the nearest half ton because there wasn't anything to do with a quarter ton in the game. So an XL engine that weighed for example, 4.25 tons... would have rounded up to 4.5.

Well...PGI apparently is incapable of handling fractions also and thus everything rounds up to a half ton, except when buying armor which ignores the BT rule where it had to be purchased in a minimum of a half ton lot. How is this important? Well there's a host of engine ratings which are a quarter ton heavier than they need be. And endo steel structure loses a quarter ton of savings on all mechs with a tonnage that ends in 5. For example... The Phoenix Hawk PXH-3M...the endo steel is supposed to be 2.25 tons and the 270XL engine is 7.25 tons according to the 3050 TRO. In PGI land of make believe...the structure is 2.5 tons and the engine (including six tons for the cockpit and gyro) is 13.5 tons. So presto..half a ton lost to PGI math.

There's also a LOT of clan mechs which LOST a MG off their loadouts when transferred to this game, because again, PGI cannot track quarter tons properly apparently. The Myst Lynx is supposed to have 8.75 tons of pod space, and the Prime and A variants use that quarter ton to mount a single MG.

Edited by Dee Eight, 29 January 2017 - 02:15 AM.

[RestosIII]

Tarogato, on 29 January 2017 - 02:04 AM, said:

Then I'm sure you'll love this: https://docs.google....#gid=1944436187

I knew there was a reason I had never posted this before. It was for this moment.

Me right now looking at that


I think I'm going to finally fall unconscious now. I'll read all this later.

[Tarogato]

Dee Eight, on 29 January 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

For example... The Phoenix Hawk PXH-3M...the endo steel is supposed to be 2.25 tons and the 270XL engine is 7.25 tons according to the 3050 TRO. In PGI land of make believe...the structure is 2.5 tons and the engine (including six tons for the cockpit and gyro) is 13.5 tons. So presto..half a ton lost to PGI math.

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Here is the PXH-3M stock build replicated with every single minute detail (except for which slots are occupied by the Endo)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9452b27a8830ac7

And it works out perfectly.


Edit: oh, I think I see what you're saying. Sarna.net says it's supposed to have two tons of MG ammo. Is that a typo?

Edited by Tarogato, 29 January 2017 - 02:48 AM.

[Giklab]

Tarogato, on 29 January 2017 - 02:20 AM, said:

I'm not sure where you're getting this. Here is the PXH-3M stock build replicated with every single minute detail (except for which slots are occupied by the Endo)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9452b27a8830ac7

And it works out perfectly.


Edit: oh, I think I see what you're saying. Sarna.net says it's supposed to have two tons of MG ammo. Is that a typo?

Your build has 7.5 tons of armor instead of 8, so that checks our doesn't it? (or am I misreading Sarna)

Edit: Without that 1-ton MG ammo.

Edited by Giklab, 29 January 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[LegoPirate]

Dee Eight, on 29 January 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

There's also a LOT of clan mechs which LOST a MG off their loadouts when transferred to this game, because again, PGI cannot track quarter tons properly apparently. The Myst Lynx is supposed to have 8.75 tons of pod space, and the Prime and A variants use that quarter ton to mount a single MG.

wrong, the mist lynx prime and A both mount 2 MGs in their right arm. and they both have them in mwo.

http://www.sarna.net...ist_Lynx_(Koshi)

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=225&l=stock

Edited by LegoPirate, 29 January 2017 - 03:28 AM.

[Tarogato]

Giklab, on 29 January 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

Your build has 7.5 tons of armor instead of 8, so that checks our doesn't it? (or am I misreading Sarna)

Edit: Without that 1-ton MG ammo.

I think Sarna is unclear. I'm only seeing 7.5 tons of armour. I just checked the PXH-3M and the PXH-3D.

Also checked the PXH-1 (the base variant) and it does have 8.0 tons, so I think it's just Sarna not being clear about which variants do and don't change the armour.

Edited by Tarogato, 29 January 2017 - 03:41 AM.

[Navid A1]

Tarogato, on 29 January 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

I think Sarna is unclear. I'm only seeing 7.5 tons of armour. I just checked the PXH-3M and the PXH-3D.

Also checked the PXH-1 (the base variant) and it does have 8.0 tons, so I think it's just Sarna not being clear about which variants do and don't change the armour.

6D has 10 tons of armor

1K has 9.5 tons of armor

1C, 3PL, 7CS, 7S have 9 tons of armor

4W, 7K, 8CS have 8.5 tons

1, 1D, 1B, 3K, 3S, 4L, 5L have 8 tons of armor

3D, 3M, have 7.5 tons

[Giklab]

Navid A1, on 29 January 2017 - 04:01 AM, said:

6D has 10 tons of armor

1K has 9.5 tons of armor

1C, 3PL, 7CS, 7S have 9 tons of armor

4W, 7K, 8CS have 8.5 tons

1, 1D, 1B, 3K, 3S, 4L, 5L have 8 tons of armor

3D, 3M, have 7.5 tons

and @Tarogato

My bad, was going off the stock 8 tons. Mind sharing other sites where I could get this info from?

[Tarogato]

Giklab, on 29 January 2017 - 04:13 AM, said:

and @Tarogato

My bad, was going off the stock 8 tons. Mind sharing other sites where I could get this info from?

Other than googling for PDFs of record sheets, I just use the TRO's from MegaMek. You can find them online here: https://sourceforge....echfiles/mechs/

But I just use the actual ones from MegaMek and I have them extracted into a folder so I can easily CTRL+F through them (otherwise you'd have to know where to find mechs, for instance the PXH-3M is from the Project Phoenix collection in the 3085 Unabridged set... even though it's a 3045 mech.)

[Zacharias McLeod]

Dee Eight, on 29 January 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

Hell in BT they actually as of the clans introduction TRACKED quarter ton fractions in mech construction because the clans had quarter ton MGs. Previously they simply rounded up fractions to the nearest half ton because there wasn't anything to do with a quarter ton in the game. So an XL engine that weighed for example, 4.25 tons... would have rounded up to 4.5.

This was only the first editon of the TROs.

In the newer TROs they use the round to nearest 0.5t rule for all Mechs. So the Timber Wolf Prime lost his small laser in the LT.

I have both the old 3050 TRO from 1990 and the new from 2009. In the old version the Timber Wolf has 28t pod space and 27,5t in the new. PGI used the new and current stats of the Mechs.

PS:
Some IS-Mechs with both endo and XL lost 0,5t too.

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 29 January 2017 - 05:07 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Well, considering that i don't even run my Waifu on XL100 like a god damn pariah, probably PGI thought of nobody was stupid crazy ******** brave enough to even run XL100s, cause they're slow AF, so they didn't bothered fixing it.

To put that into perspective, a Locust, 20-tonner annoying little buggers that runs up to 160 KPH with speed tweak, would only run 81 KPH, 87.1 KPH with speed tweak. The heaviest that can run XL100 is 50 tonners, and their speed is at 32.4, 34.8 with speed tweak.

Although considering only the additional heat-sinks required:

XL ENGINE 100: 0.5 + 6 = 6.5
XL ENGINE 105: 1.0 + 6 = 7
XL ENGINE 110: 1.0 + 6 = 7
XL ENGINE 115: 1.0 + 6 = 7
XL ENGINE 120: 1.0 + 6 = 7
XL ENGINE 125: 2.0 + 5 = 7
XL ENGINE 130: 2.5 + 5 = 7.5
XL ENGINE 135: 2.5 + 5 = 7.5
XL ENGINE 140: 2.5 + 5 = 7.5
XL ENGINE 145: 2.5 + 5 = 7.5
XL ENGINE 150: 4.0 + 4 = 8
XL ENGINE 155: 4.0 + 4 = 8
XL ENGINE 160: 4.0 + 4 = 8
XL ENGINE 165: 4.0 + 4 = 8
XL ENGINE 170: 4.0 + 4 = 8
XL ENGINE 175: 5.5 + 3 = 8.5
XL ENGINE 180: 5.5 + 3 = 8.5

The engines has somewhat linear bonuses, of 0.5t each "step", where an internal heatsink is added.

Noticeably XL125 has the same tonnage as XL120 with required heatinks, XL 105 - 120 has NO advantage of being taken whatsoever over XL125, as despite having the same tonnage it is faster as well as has less 1 heat-sink and therefore more crit slots. However if you want more speed, you can acquire XL145 for 84 KPH w/ speed-tweak, and only alloting more 0.5t.

The XL100 however has - 0.5t than the XL125 and before it, making it somewhat an incentive for the XL100 and XL125 being the most tonnage-saving engine. Likewise it also does follow the trend somewhat, that each "step", that each relevant increment of engine rating has +- 0.5t.

If you bought an urbie, the only XL engines worth taking are XL180, XL170, XL145, and XL125.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 29 January 2017 - 05:30 AM.